The OotS Thread III

[Lord of the Abyss]

Keep in mind that first, given how weakened the Order is Nale might win - and Malack pretty clearly doesn't want Nale to win, at anything. And second, the one being besides himself in Nale's group that Malack actually cares about, Vampire!Durkon, is presently vulnerable due to lacking a coffin/sarcophagus. So why risk Durkon in an unnecessary fight for a mission Malack doesn't even care about?

But without wampires, Nale has only Dritzi as a help. That would make him outnumbered 2:1. Why risk?

The risk would be to Durkon, who is likely to be a high priority target for the Order; they'll want to "kill" Durkon in the hopes of getting him resurrected as a non-vampire later.

[Kuja]

Some predictions for the immediate future-
Spoiler

Roy will destroy the gate.

Xykon will show up and fly into a massive snit-fit at having been thwarted.

Tarquin's adventuring buddies will arrive from their respective kingdoms, having been summoned by their old leader. One of them will take a potshot at Xykon, giving him the excuse to vent his frustration on some nearby targets.

Xykon will bushwhack Tarquin - a poetic end for the guy who wanted to be remembered as a glorious conquering villain defeated by the great hero, instead getting plowed over by an annoyed lich for interfering in his story.

Redcloak will off Malack, probably while making some snarky remark about the horrendous optimization of lizardmen vampire clerics. This will free Durkon to rejoin the Order.

While Team Evil is occupied with roflstomping Tarquin's old party, Nale and Ditzi will amscray and the Order will reunite with V and Durkon before escaping.

[Crazedwraith]

@Kuja: Spoiler

I'd say it seems likely the Linear Guild and Tarquin are going to bite it before the grand finale. I don't think major players in the end game would be introduced this late in the plot arc over all.

Seems likely the Linear Guild and Team Evil are going to throw down and the Order will escape in the confusion. I also think Roy's plan to destroy the gate will turn out to be near suicidal for him. (Miko died destroying soon's gate) as a sign he's still not over the loss of durkon.

Curious why you think the order's going to get vamp!Durkon back on their side. i was theorising Lien or O-Chull might be promoted to fill the holy guy slot of the order. Though I admit it does also seem a bit late in the game to introduce new members of the order since their membership has been static for nearly 900 issues.)

[Kuja]

@Crazed

I agree on the first two, and as to the third-
Spoiler

Awhile back I commented that Durkon becoming a vamp made sense, because where all the Order members started out as stereotypes, most of them have recieved defining character growth - Elan went from dopey bard to dashing swordsman, Roy got his whole heaven arc with his family, Haley faced her fears, saved her father, and got together with Elan, V learned the price of overconfidance in his magic and recklessness, and even Belkar's grown a bit. Durkon's really the last member of the Order who's still largely a generic LG dwarf clericzilla, but seeing him switch from that to a LE vampcleric could prove juicy.

I think you could get a lot of mileage out of Durkon still holding to his old friendship with Roy and his oaths, but for darker reasons, and stuff like Belkar encouraging to go hogwild evil. Plus there's still that prophecy about Durkon bringing ruin to his homelands, and the kobold's prediction that he'll return posthumously...and the last gate is hidden in Kraagor's tomb. A dwarf barbarian.

[PainRack]

Ok........... isn't it time Roy took a time out and actually started putting on his thinking cap?

The dismantling of the trap runes and stuff? Oh dandy. But why the hell is he aiming to destroy the gate instead of say, leaving it aside so Xykon won't get his hands on it?

The aim of "alert illusionist of incoming Xykon attack" has now morphed to "get to gate before Xykon" and now "destroy gate before Xykon secures it."

It smacks of mission creep, and I'm wondering how much of an impact Durkon death, along with Belkar attempts to motivate him afterwards is affecting Roy and his decision making.

[Terralthra]

What else can he do? The party has no primary casters, there's no way in hell he can hold off Xykon. Hope Xykon falls for the gigantic plinth ruse?

[Lord of the Abyss]

What else can he do? The party has no primary casters, there's no way in hell he can hold off Xykon. Hope Xykon falls for the gigantic plinth ruse?

Definitely not. Xykon is exactly the kind of guy (well, lich) who'd respond to a trick like that by blasting the plinth in a tantrum and finding out the truth that way. Even if Roy hadn't already knocked a chunk off.

Yeah; Roy and the Order are at the moment in a deep tactical hole, and I can't think of any better option than Roy's.

[Alkaloid]

I'd say Roy is trying to wing his way out of losing at this point. They are losing this confrontation, if her can ensure neither of the other parties secure their objective (the gate) and play them of against each other to cover his escape that's as good a result as I see him getting. I'd say Tarquins and Xykons parties are probably pretty evenly matched, but Xykons army could give him an edge depending on how much he could bring and I will be entirely unsurprised to see the MitD come into play early and enthusiastically against actual bad guys.

[Irbis]

I'd say Tarquins and Xykons parties are probably pretty evenly matched, but Xykons army could give him an edge depending on how much he could bring and I will be entirely unsurprised to see the MitD come into play early and enthusiastically against actual bad guys.

Didn't he said only four (well, three now) Team Evil members will go for Gate this time?

[Napoleon the Clown]

Yeah, IIRC he said they're traveling light so they can move faster.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I'd say Tarquins and Xykons parties are probably pretty evenly matched, but Xykons army could give him an edge depending on how much he could bring and I will be entirely unsurprised to see the MitD come into play early and enthusiastically against actual bad guys.

Didn't he said only four (well, three now) Team Evil members will go for Gate this time?

Yes. "We travel light, then. You, me and the thing in the shadows."

[Kuja]

Even with just the three of them, I would take Team Evil over Tarquin's bunch in a straight up fight.

Xykon is pretty much the quintessential artillery piece. He throws meteor swarms around like candy, and he's epic enough that he considers using magic missile to be beneath him. Redcloak has quite a reportoire himself, and though he's probably not the stat-beast Xykon is, he casually fires off Disintigrates and even yanked Tsukiko's ghouls out from under her nose without her even noticing. The monster the the shadows, even though he's pretty much useless, is powerful enough that all he has to do is tap his foot or ping a finger against somebody to cause horrendous damage.

Tarquin's party, meanwhile, doesn't seem too well-optimized at a glance. Malack has a horrendous level adjustment (+1 for lizardman and a whopping +8 for vampire), and one of the other party members is a catfolk. They've played havoc with the Order, of course, because they're obviously higher level and the Order themselves are rather badly-optimized.

It seems like Team Evil (or at least Xykon) is close to or on the level of the Big Damn Heroes that sealed the Gates to begin with - Xykon had a lot of trouble with the spirit of Soon (being an evoker), but Redcloak could stun him and if Soon had been alive he'd probably not fared so well. Even when V was pumped up on dead epic casters, Xykon was pretty much going shot-for-shot with him. At a guess, Team Tarquin acts like an evil adventuring party that's done with their campaign, so they might be around 20 or the early 20s, while the Order is still sub-20.

Of course, getting into the metagame, Team Evil also has plot on their side: Xykon and Redcloak have pretty clearly been set up as the campgain's BBEGs since the beginning, and they have the biggest aces that threaten the Order: they know where the gates are, they have the ritual to make use of them, and Redcloak has his double-cross lying in wait. There's a lot of unfired guns in Team Evil's story that Tarquin's bunch doesn't have - off Malack and Tarquin and their bit is done.

Offing Team Tarquin also progresses the plot in the region - with the major perpetrators of the constant unrest gone, the growing rebellion by Haley's dad might be able to gain some traction as the incompetents left on the local thrones collapse, giving the Order a reason not to feel bad about leaving to get to the last gate.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Redcloak also has Implosion, which will work on at least a few of the people on Team Tarquin. And odds are good that he could have a grand old time with Durkula.

Xykon, of course, has in excess of twenty d12 hit dice and thus can tank a fair bit of damage on top of being utterly ruthless and having the raw power to pulp quite a few people. I don't remember what minimum level was calculated for Xykon and am not inclined to look right now, but if memory serves it was in excess of 25 levels. None of the casters on Team Tarquin can touch him and Tarquin doesn't have the ability to take on a guy who can just fly out of range of melee and spam 9th level spells. I do trust Tarquin to have a magic item to prevent energy drain, however. He's smart enough to expect that tactic at some point.

And then the good old Monster in the Darkness. I don't see Tarquin being able to go into melee with him and have much hope of winning without some serious optimization. Tsukiko's best efforts "tickled" and his lovetap sent her on quite the trip. MitD going into something in a serious manner would result in some pretty severe collateral damage in addition to a probably very dead opponent.

The biggest liability of Team Evil is that Xykon loves to toy with his opponents and that could actually give him trouble against someone like Tarquin. Xykon can be pretty clever when push comes to shove but he is, by his own admission, easily bored. When someone gets bored and actively enjoys causing suffering they're probably going to take a bit of extra time to savor it.

[Ahriman238]

Er, I think you mean Miko.

[Irbis]

It seems like Team Evil (or at least Xykon) is close to or on the level of the Big Damn Heroes that sealed the Gates to begin with - Xykon had a lot of trouble with the spirit of Soon (being an evoker), but Redcloak could stun him and if Soon had been alive he'd probably not fared so well.

Close?
Spoiler

Xykon took on Lirian, Epic Druid, and Dorukan, Epic Wizard, and won, both times with unconventional strategy, but without any help from Redcloak, who is now 17th level to boot too.

These fights give case for MitD being useless, though, even without change of heart he had recently his big "help" in fight was this:

[Crazedwraith]

896 is Up
Spoiler

holy crap. V tries to stop Roy destroying the gate and Consolidated Evil make their move. Did not expect that at this juncture.
That reminds though; why did V never share the information about the planet in the rift?

[Ralin]

Spoiler

I think V was just really reluctant to talk about what happened, period.

[FaxModem1]

We had a time skip from V and Ravenclaw talking about the planet and them arriving in the desert continent. There's no reason V didn't tell the rest, as he/she had plenty of time to do so.

Also, FUCK!!!! The LE, NE, and CE picked their ideal moment.

[Irbis]

Spoiler

I wonder, will it be whole hour owed or will they pick only what they need, leading to Roy possibly kicking out V (providing everyone survives what is about to start) out of OotS?

[Ahriman238]

This is why it's a terrible idea to sell, rent or lease your soul.

[Raesene]

That would be a cliffhanger for his summer hiatus...

[Serafina]

They can't control Blackwing....but the Fiends could silence Blackwing by means of V....or the Order may just ignore Blackwing as always

[Irbis]

Also - are they about to hinder Roy, or help Roy? While the implication is that V is about to grab gate for them, what if they took control to A) help Roy destroy it by stopping V attempts to stop him and B) to silence, magically or not, V into not talking about the planet?

[Kuja]

Oh fuckdiggity.

Hopefully the worst the fiends have planned is for V to sit on his hands for a few minutes while Roy makes like a bulldozer.

[Bedlam]

Spoiler

I wonder, will it be whole hour owed or will they pick only what they need, leading to Roy possibly kicking out V (providing everyone survives what is about to start) out of OotS?

I think their smart enough to only use what they need.