NSA spied on EU

[Broomstick]

Yes, other nations may have tried to bug the Oval Office and hack into the White House e-mail network.

But the Oval Office and the White House e-mail network are legitimate espionage goals -the homes of innocent civilians are not.

So... why the outrage because government buildings were bugged? Because that's what I keep hearing, that it's not just the civilian e-mails and phone calls (which are arguably usually not targets of such surveillance) but - OMG! - government and EU buildings and offices that were bugged.

But espionage is still an act of an state and has to observe general principles of law - as the state itself has to observe general principles of law - even those which are not written down.

So please delineate these "laws" you claim exist.

[Broomstick]

Think back to, say, 1970. Imagine that the KGB found a way to read the mail of all American citizens at that time. What would be the US government's reaction? I don't know, but it'd be dramatic. The potential for blackmail alone would be staggering, if you had that much information about people's private lives.

Sure, there would be outrage... and then everyone would ask why the US didn't have that capability first so they could spy on the USSR in that manner.

Then again, 1970 wasn't too many years before a US President was forced to resign for spying on his parties political opposition.

It's not apology or advocating for this sort of thing that I do, it's a recognition that this shit has been going on as long as one tribe of humans has lived within spitting distance of another, and it's not going to stop just because you disapprove.

Today, right this moment, even having a database with everyone's email on it won't give the NSA that kind of power. There aren't enough spies to read the data and trawl it for incriminating information.

You don't have actual human beings read every bit, that's what automated searches for keywords are for.

[Simon_Jester]

Far more amusing is the Russian statement, basically, the leaks are exposing something every single nation would rather keep under the rugs. The German security services are most likely attempting (or, more likely, succeeded) in doing similar wire taps to the U.S. mission in Germany.

If he (Snowden) wants to remain here there is one condition - he should stop his work aimed at inflicting damage on our American partners no matter how strange this may sound coming from me.

Of course, Putin himself is a nastier piece of work than any major US officeholder, so making him miserable is arguably an even bigger feather in Snowden's cap than doing the same to the NSA is.

Sure, there would be outrage... and then everyone would ask why the US didn't have that capability first so they could spy on the USSR in that manner.

But they would also ask, why is the US not trying very hard to stop the Soviets from doing this, and how does it intend to counter the massive wealth of information the KGB now has on everyone in America?

I think that's the interesting question, and the one that the US should be worried about. And that WE personally might worry about, because it may impact the future of the global communications system.

For example, a country like the USSR would respond by clamping down on public communications and defining a much wider variety of cross-border communications as "spying," because of the way they could be used to indirectly build up a foreign agency's dossiers on their citizens.

Another country might simply insist on a national communications network that doesn't connect to the global one, or does so only under specific conditions that can be monitored. Sort of like how you had to go through extra rigamarole to make a long-distance or international phone call Back In The Day (TM).

Yet another country might respond by trying to punish the US for NSA hacking attempts that interfere with its infrastructure, retract trade deals that it suspects may be 'gamed' by all the secret knowledge the US has been compiling, and otherwise treat our government like the unreliable and disrespectful bunch of busybodies it's chosen to be.

All these things might have consequences for us and our friends, both personally and as a nation, in the future. So thinking about them is worthwhile.

I get the feeling that the US security apparatus has built up its global surveillance organs without really considering this question. And what consequences the issue will have on the grand strategic level.

Today, right this moment, even having a database with everyone's email on it won't give the NSA that kind of power. There aren't enough spies to read the data and trawl it for incriminating information.

You don't have actual human beings read every bit, that's what automated searches for keywords are for.

...Which is why I myself talk about developing automatic systems to do the job, in the same post you quoted, Broomy.

My point is that insofar as they can't just automatically type a name into a database and pull up a big file of potential blackmail material, back channels to bribe them, and so on... they will probably acquire the ability to do that soon, with disturbing reliability.

This is the sort of thing a voting public should probably be worried about. Because it is NOT "what has been going on since forever,"

[Thanas]

Of course, Putin himself is a nastier piece of work than any major US officeholder, so making him miserable is arguably an even bigger feather in Snowden's cap than doing the same to the NSA is.

Are you sure that statement is right? Even the largest estimates put the death tolls created by his wars a mere fraction of what the Iraq war alone caused.

[Simon_Jester]

Of course, Putin himself is a nastier piece of work than any major US officeholder, so making him miserable is arguably an even bigger feather in Snowden's cap than doing the same to the NSA is.

Are you sure that statement is right? Even the largest estimates put the death tolls created by his wars a mere fraction of what the Iraq war alone caused.

Yes, I'm quite sure. I'm measuring here by regard for personal freedoms; Putin is the next best thing to a dictator and routinely has political opponents intimidated or assassinated.

He may not have found it advantageous to occupy any Middle Eastern countries lately, but if you think that's because he's got humanitarian concerns then you're kidding yourself.

And my point is that when it comes to civil liberties, surveillance, and the ability to live without being monitored and/or picked up by the state's security organs, yes Putin is even worse to deal with than the Americans.

[K. A. Pital]

Putin is different simply because as a Third World dictator, he is limited by the capabilities at his disposal. If he was Obama, he would do the exact same shit and put the NSA apparatus at the very same tasks that are now causing people to become outraged across the world. There's no question that the so-called "Presidents" of dysfunctional capitalist "democracies" are little more than wannabe-dictators, "Appointed Czars" and in general people without a shred of dignity.

Yet another country might respond by trying to punish the US for NSA hacking attempts that interfere with its infrastructure, retract trade deals that it suspects may be 'gamed' by all the secret knowledge the US has been compiling, and otherwise treat our government like the unreliable and disrespectful bunch of busybodies it's chosen to be.

Already happens as we speak. France is saying that it will kill the trans-atlantic trade agreement because of US behaviour.

[Metahive]

Yes, I'm quite sure. I'm measuring here by regard for personal freedoms; Putin is the next best thing to a dictator and routinely has political opponents intimidated or assassinated.

What's the difference between Obama and Putin? Well, let's see, one's shamelessly furthering the political ambitions of a plutocratic right wing cabal, has people randomly murdered all over the world and cracks down on those opposing his policies. The other is Russian. O yeah, and he doesn't murder people randomly.

Yeah, sorry, but the differences are becoming quite blurry.

[mr friendly guy]

The fact nations spy on each other and this time it was the US doing it wouldn't be that big a deal in my mind. Except one teeny whinsy problem. The US makes such a big fuss when the shoe is on the other foot, from Chinese stealing nuclear secrets that they persecuted one of their own scientists, talking up Chinese hacking, and bitching when other nations catch their spies, er I mean military personnel flying a spy surveillance plane etc.

If the US took the line that "you got the better of our espionage department this time, but we will do better next time", I wouldn't see the problem. But the way they carry on, you would think the US spying is somehow not as bad compared to other countries. So too bad for the US. Cop it sweet.

[LaCroix]

Snowden seems to not like the restrictions proposed by Putin - today's news reported he has asked for asylum in Austria, and it is quite probable we would grant it.

[PainRack]

The fact nations spy on each other and this time it was the US doing it wouldn't be that big a deal in my mind. Except one teeny whinsy problem. The US makes such a big fuss when the shoe is on the other foot, from Chinese stealing nuclear secrets that they persecuted one of their own scientists, talking up Chinese hacking, and bitching when other nations catch their spies, er I mean military personnel flying a spy surveillance plane etc.

If the US took the line that "you got the better of our espionage department this time, but we will do better next time", I wouldn't see the problem. But the way they carry on, you would think the US spying is somehow not as bad compared to other countries. So too bad for the US. Cop it sweet.

The fun stuff always happens when its the US moaning about how the Iranians, Russians, Chinese shouldn't be allowed to salvage and take a peek at their high tech surveillance spyplane or UAV or stealth bomber........

[K. A. Pital]

Snowden seems to not like the restrictions proposed by Putin - today's news reported he has asked for asylum in Austria, and it is quite probable we would grant it.

I hope so.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Snowden seems to not like the restrictions proposed by Putin - today's news reported he has asked for asylum in Austria, and it is quite probable we would grant it.

I hope so.

Nope. Austria insisted he be in Austria first.

[Zaune]

Are you sure that statement is right? Even the largest estimates put the death tolls created by his wars a mere fraction of what the Iraq war alone caused.

There's still the question of how many deaths, or exiles to the Gulag, he was responsible for before he got into politics. Putin used to be in the KGB, remember?

[K. A. Pital]

Just look at this. So that's what you are worth, the "Free World" and everyone else who have rejected the application. You are worth less than shit. You are worth nothing. Weak, pathetic slime, worse than whores and sluts. The collapse of all your hypocrite governments would do humanity a great service.

Even one of those governments could have improved my opinion of them by simply denying Uncle Sam what he wants. Poor nations with poor human rights records, you rave about the American empire, but what now? You have a real chance to stand up to them, and you fold like a fucking house of cards.

Only the words of Mylene Farmer come to mind.

[Thanas]

Even if Putin personally caused the death of every prisoner in all soviet prisons ever I doubt they measure tens of thousands.

[LaCroix]

Snowden seems to not like the restrictions proposed by Putin - today's news reported he has asked for asylum in Austria, and it is quite probable we would grant it.

I hope so.

Nope. Austria insisted he be in Austria first.

Which means, "if you make it here, sure, why not. Good luck."
Since he already is at a Russian airport, this should be no issue.

[Metahive]

The issue is that he has no legal documentation since the US voided his papers which makes travelling across country borders a whole lot harder. So simply saying "get here if you can" sounds like cynical mockery.

[Broomstick]

Saying "we'll consider asylum once you get here" is actually a dodge, a way of saying no without actually saying no since it's unlikely he'd be able to get to any of those countries with no travel documents.

[Metahive]

Just read that Germany denied asylum to Snowden.

Fuck you, Angela, and Guido too.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, I'm quite sure. I'm measuring here by regard for personal freedoms; Putin is the next best thing to a dictator and routinely has political opponents intimidated or assassinated.

What's the difference between Obama and Putin? Well, let's see, one's shamelessly furthering the political ambitions of a plutocratic right wing cabal, has people randomly murdered all over the world and cracks down on those opposing his policies. The other is Russian. O yeah, and he doesn't murder people randomly.

Yeah, sorry, but the differences are becoming quite blurry.

Metahive, if you don't grasp why there's a problem with a politician who assassinates his rivals, you're not worth talking to.

The fact nations spy on each other and this time it was the US doing it wouldn't be that big a deal in my mind. Except one teeny whinsy problem. The US makes such a big fuss when the shoe is on the other foot, from Chinese stealing nuclear secrets that they persecuted one of their own scientists, talking up Chinese hacking, and bitching when other nations catch their spies, er I mean military personnel flying a spy surveillance plane etc.

If the US took the line that "you got the better of our espionage department this time, but we will do better next time", I wouldn't see the problem. But the way they carry on, you would think the US spying is somehow not as bad compared to other countries. So too bad for the US. Cop it sweet.

If it were just the NSA spying on governments, there'd be less of an issue, though foreign countries are entitled to say "gee, you spy on us too much, I guess you're not really our friend after all." There's a fair amount of tradition behind that.

I feel more concerned about the consequences of mass NSA surveillance of everyone. Of random private citizens whose personal effects and communications are being trawled with search algorithms, not just actual governments that have power and need to be watched as specific potential threats.

[Metahive]

So, Simon, a politician that murders only specific people is worse in your eyes than a politician that has people killed at random (look up "Signature Strike" in case you don't get it)? You gotta' explain that one for me.

[LaCroix]

Saying "we'll consider asylum once you get here" is actually a dodge, a way of saying no without actually saying no since it's unlikely he'd be able to get to any of those countries with no travel documents.

Wrong. He can. And he can stay up to 90 days, during which his case would be reviewed by the judges.

And it's not a dogde, but our law. You can only ask for asylum if you are in Austria, proper, not in our embassies.

[salm]

Saying "we'll consider asylum once you get here" is actually a dodge, a way of saying no without actually saying no since it's unlikely he'd be able to get to any of those countries with no travel documents.

Wrong. He can. And he can stay up to 90 days, during which his case would be reviewed by the judges.

And it's not a dogde, but our law. You can only ask for asylum if you are in Austria, proper, not in our embassies.

Are you sure? In Germany it´s the same but exceptions can be made. If I understand the situation correctly he wouldn´t even have to be in an embassy.
Are you sure it´s not similar in Austria?

[LaCroix]

It isn't. There have been a lot of articles/interviews due to this case, and all parties and judges agree that the Austrian asylum laws require personal presence within the national borders, discounting embassies. (I think I remember that this was changed because Austria had a reputation to be very willing to grant asylum, and we got swamped. Also, there was a scandal about some diplomats accepting bribes for papers.)

[Thanas]

Saying "we'll consider asylum once you get here" is actually a dodge, a way of saying no without actually saying no since it's unlikely he'd be able to get to any of those countries with no travel documents.

Wrong. He can. And he can stay up to 90 days, during which his case would be reviewed by the judges.

And it's not a dogde, but our law. You can only ask for asylum if you are in Austria, proper, not in our embassies.

Are you sure? In Germany it´s the same but exceptions can be made.

It is not so much that exceptions could be made, it is rather that for humanitarian reasons the embassy can give Snowden a letter of safe conduct to an embassy where he could then ask for Asylum.

The same applies to Austria and to all other nations. That no nation is willing to do so is a pretty huge indictment.