NSA spied on EU

[Aaron MkII]

Article 30

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

So its working well then.

[Siege]

Justice Commissioner Reding has announced that there will be a joint EU-US assessment of the alleged spying on EU officials. Findings are to be reported in October. Far as I know Reding's always been a proponent of strengthening citizens' rights so I'm moderately hopeful that something fruitful will come of this.

[Broomstick]

But perhaps it won't happen. Still, cancelling the passport, then demanding him as a "US citizen" is an incredibly hypocritic way of dealing with this. Criminals don't lose their US passport, do they?

You don't even have to be convicted of a crime - it's not at all unusual for someone accused of a crime to be forced to surrender his or her passport. Presumably, if the person is found innocent he or she gets it back.

For a US citizen in the US that's not much of an imposition given how little role passports play in US life... but if you're abroad it sucks.

[Broomstick]

Because I believe that once you've done your time, including probation that you should have your full rights restored. Its extremely offensive to me that one should be punished for life after you have been rehabilitated.

You may as well keep them forever if you intend to deny them a say in how their nation is run. You should be assessed for risk of reoffending anyways. If there is no risk, there is no reason to deny it.

It varies from state to state, actually. There are even a couple of US states that allow people in prison to vote - but they're an exception. Some restore full rights after probation, some don't.

And, of course, Federal laws are yet another kettle of fish.

Former felons can petition the courts for a full restoration of rights, but it's a long and difficult process.

I agree, a lot of it is very vindictive.

[K. A. Pital]

You don't even have to be convicted of a crime - it's not at all unusual for someone accused of a crime to be forced to surrender his or her passport.

You are making me even more sad now.

For a US citizen in the US that's not much of an imposition given how little role passports play in US life... but if you're abroad it sucks.

You cannot leave your nation, so your nation becomes a giant prison, doesn't it?

[LaCroix]

You don't even have to be convicted of a crime - it's not at all unusual for someone accused of a crime to be forced to surrender his or her passport.

You are making me even more sad now.

This is not exactly uncommon - if you are accused of a crime, police doesn't exactly want you to flee the country. Happens everywhere. Heck, people even get put in investigative detention if the flight risk is deemed too high.

[Broomstick]

For a US citizen in the US that's not much of an imposition given how little role passports play in US life... but if you're abroad it sucks.

You cannot leave your nation, so your nation becomes a giant prison, doesn't it?

Considering that the vast majority of Americans don't even bother to get a passport in the first place it's probably safe to assume most of them don't regard being forced to surrender it that big a deal, nor do they feel a need to ever leave the country. It a very different mindset than yours or, I'm guessing, most of Europe.

[Alkaloid]

Though I'm not sure why the idea that being a convicted bank robber is grounds to be refused one is especially shocking?

Being unable to get a visa wouldn't be shocking, you could understand why a country might not want a convicted bank robber coming in. Making sure they can never leave seems odd though.

[K. A. Pital]

Considering that the vast majority of Americans don't even bother to get a passport in the first place it's probably safe to assume most of them don't regard being forced to surrender it that big a deal, nor do they feel a need to ever leave the country. It a very different mindset than yours or, I'm guessing, most of Europe.

Yes, now I see. That is weird, though. I mean, a person who does not bother getting a passport is not limited in his rights, since he can get it and leave the nation. A person stripped of the passport and right to leave can't. That's the difference, and indifference of the commoner does not necessarily mean the normality of the practice.

[His Divine Shadow]

For a US citizen in the US that's not much of an imposition given how little role passports play in US life... but if you're abroad it sucks.

You cannot leave your nation, so your nation becomes a giant prison, doesn't it?

Considering that the vast majority of Americans don't even bother to get a passport in the first place it's probably safe to assume most of them don't regard being forced to surrender it that big a deal, nor do they feel a need to ever leave the country. It a very different mindset than yours or, I'm guessing, most of Europe.

I don't think it's an american thing. Or that this mindset you say is common here, is.

[Thanas]

Everybody I know in Germany gets a passport. Maybe it makes more sense for Europe considering the travel and before Schengen some people regularly had to cross borders just to get to work (for example if you live near Trier chances are you will cross into Luxembourg or vice versa).

[Broomstick]

Considering that the vast majority of Americans don't even bother to get a passport in the first place it's probably safe to assume most of them don't regard being forced to surrender it that big a deal, nor do they feel a need to ever leave the country. It a very different mindset than yours or, I'm guessing, most of Europe.

Yes, now I see. That is weird, though. I mean, a person who does not bother getting a passport is not limited in his rights, since he can get it and leave the nation. A person stripped of the passport and right to leave can't. That's the difference, and indifference of the commoner does not necessarily mean the normality of the practice.

Lack of a passport does not prevent you from leaving the US. No one checks if you have a passport on the way out of the country. What you need a passport for is to get into a country.

Of course, if you try to leave through something like an airport not having a passport at your destination will be a problem. In theory you could run into the wilderness (which people have done - the US has lots of that still), or cross into Canada (thousands of kilometers of unwatched border), or cut through the southwestern deserts to Mexico (bring lots of water, you'll need it), or steal a boat and flee into the ocean (hope you can find an island to live on). Those alternatives to conventional transport are more difficult, of course.

[General Zod]

Everybody I know in Germany gets a passport. Maybe it makes more sense for Europe considering the travel and before Schengen some people regularly had to cross borders just to get to work (for example if you live near Trier chances are you will cross into Luxembourg or vice versa).

The average American can't afford the cost to travel abroad, so why would they get a passport? The cheapest roundtrip ticket from NYC to London is $2500, for example. Most Americans don't have that kind of change lying about.

[salm]

Everybody I know in Germany gets a passport. Maybe it makes more sense for Europe considering the travel and before Schengen some people regularly had to cross borders just to get to work (for example if you live near Trier chances are you will cross into Luxembourg or vice versa).

The average American can't afford the cost to travel abroad, so why would they get a passport? The cheapest roundtrip ticket from NYC to London is $2500, for example. Most Americans don't have that kind of change lying about.

It´s dirt cheap to drive or fly to Mexico, Central and South America. Don´t you need passports there?

[Broomstick]

You can drive to Canada or Mexico, even most poor people in the US have some sort of car... but yeah, unless you live near the border you don't really have any need for a passport. And until the security types went bonkers after 9/11 Americans didn't need a passport to go to Canada. I went there dozens of times and most of the time they didn't even ask for ID. They just asked "nationality?" and I said "American" or "US" and they said "Have a nice stay here, eh?" and waved me through.

Once they started requiring a passport for Canada, though, I stopped going because my passport (acquired for travel to Europe pre-Schengen) expired decades ago and I don't have the money floating around to get a new one I don't have a specific use for. I mean, sure, it would be nice to have one to entertain fantasies of traveling outside the US, but honestly, I don't have either the need or the money to travel abroad these days. Maybe if I had more than just the bare minimum needed for survival I'd have more desire for one.

It's a shame, really - I like Canada. I'd like to see more of it. (I have the same to say about Europe, but that's even more out of reach, ditto any other continent outside of North America)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It´s dirt cheap to drive or fly to Mexico, Central and South America. Don´t you need passports there?

Why would they need to leave the country when there's more than enough things to do in America that most won't ever even enjoy every bit of it?

[Thanas]

You can drive to Canada or Mexico, even most poor people in the US have some sort of car... but yeah, unless you live near the border you don't really have any need for a passport. And until the security types went bonkers after 9/11 Americans didn't need a passport to go to Canada. I went there dozens of times and most of the time they didn't even ask for ID. They just asked "nationality?" and I said "American" or "US" and they said "Have a nice stay here, eh?" and waved me through.

Once they started requiring a passport for Canada, though, I stopped going because my passport (acquired for travel to Europe pre-Schengen) expired decades ago and I don't have the money floating around to get a new one I don't have a specific use for. I mean, sure, it would be nice to have one to entertain fantasies of traveling outside the US, but honestly, I don't have either the need or the money to travel abroad these days. Maybe if I had more than just the bare minimum needed for survival I'd have more desire for one.

It's a shame, really - I like Canada. I'd like to see more of it. (I have the same to say about Europe, but that's even more out of reach, ditto any other continent outside of North America)

You can blame Bush and Obama for not being able to go to canada anymore. The US side changed the security procedures first requiring canadians to show a passport to get in (because canadians are potential terrorists, you know) and canada just followed suit demanding the same for americans in response.

[salm]

It´s dirt cheap to drive or fly to Mexico, Central and South America. Don´t you need passports there?

Why would they need to leave the country when there's more than enough things to do in America that most won't ever even enjoy every bit of it?

I was reacting to the statement that it´s nearly impossible to leave the US if you´re not halways rich. It´s definately possible.
You can even get cheap flights to Europe. 2200 dollars is absurd. You can fly from Berlin to New York and back again for 500 - 600 Euros. I´d be very surprised to hear that it´s so much more expensive the other way round.

Now, if people don´t WANT to leave the country, that´s something different.

[His Divine Shadow]

It's not like I needed a passport until I was 21 either when I went to germany to buy a car. Not every euro is a trend setting globe trotting fashionista. Most of us just live ordinary lives in ordinary villages, towns and cities and most of us probably can't afford to go visit places far away on a regular schedule either. Then again you can do a lot in your own country.

Having a small summer cottage by the sea >>>> every southern vacation ever.

[General Zod]

It´s dirt cheap to drive or fly to Mexico, Central and South America. Don´t you need passports there?

Why would they need to leave the country when there's more than enough things to do in America that most won't ever even enjoy every bit of it?

I was reacting to the statement that it´s nearly impossible to leave the US if you´re not halways rich. It´s definately possible.
You can even get cheap flights to Europe. 2200 dollars is absurd. You can fly from Berlin to New York and back again for 500 - 600 Euros. I´d be very surprised to hear that it´s so much more expensive the other way round.

Now, if people don´t WANT to leave the country, that´s something different.

I wasn't implying that it's impossible, I was implying it's something the average American can't afford to do more than once in a blue moon. Even if they can save up for it they still have to find the time for it on top of normal obligations and responsibilities at home.

[Broomstick]

It's a shame, really - I like Canada. I'd like to see more of it. (I have the same to say about Europe, but that's even more out of reach, ditto any other continent outside of North America)

You can blame Bush and Obama for not being able to go to canada anymore. The US side changed the security procedures first requiring canadians to show a passport to get in (because canadians are potential terrorists, you know) and canada just followed suit demanding the same for americans in response.

Yes, I'm aware of who is responsible. Actually, given how many other things I'd like Obama to have done that he shows no sign of doing the continuation of needing a passport for Canada is a minor thing. It's Bush II I hold most responsible, or at least his administration.

Sure, Evil People could enter Canada then sneak across the border... but they'd have to be able to pass as Americans, because anyone who didn't sound/act America was asked for ID or proof of citizenship (either side always had the right to ask for proof of citizenship, it just wasn't required.) A plot to blow up a Seattle landmark in 2000 was foiled simply because alert border guards asked further questions.

[Thanas]

Le Monde now reports that the french have had a similar program in place for years.

All illegal of course. And they also share data with tax agencies and other government departments.


Wonder how long it will take before another country is discovered and who it will be.

[Broomstick]

"not long" and "all of them"

[Highlord Laan]

You cannot leave your nation, so your nation becomes a giant prison, doesn't it?

You're catching on. The vast majority of Americans don't have the money to leave their state, let alone go to another country. And even if they managed to scrape together the money, they're held in place by their now precious-beyond-measure jobs (from which most can be fired at will.) The Constitution makes infringing on ones right to move illegal, but it says nothing about making ones workforce poor and desperate enough to make moving well neigh impossible and inconceivable.

And oh yeah, if you get on the bad side of the powers that be, or even merely someone well connected enough, you lose your voting rights, essentially get blacklisted from ever having anything that could be confused for gainful employment, get registered as a felon, and get treated like scum by people that think you should be raped to death in general population.

'Merica. Land of the free.

Besides. Prisons make money. Lots of cheap labor that society has been conditioned to believe is perfectly fine to use as a disposable commodity. You think it's a coincidence that most prisons are privatized now? The people that the system think are actually important want a massive prison population. Then they can rake in higher and higher profits, and the rest of the prole hordes will cheer them on.

[TimothyC]

You don't even have to be convicted of a crime - it's not at all unusual for someone accused of a crime to be forced to surrender his or her passport.

You are making me even more sad now.

That's so people can't run off to a non-extraditing state after they've been charged with a crime. Actual reasons for a passport being revoked/denied are:

• Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan (Money the Department of State loans to allow people to return safely to the USA).
• Are behind on child support payments.
• Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request.
• Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court.
• Were subject to a previous denial or revocation.
• Were issued a temporary passport for specific reasons.
• Have a Federal Warrant out for your arrest.
• Have a binding court order that prohibits you from having a passport.
• If the Passport was Obtained illegally or through fraud.
• If the Passport was Altered or misused.
• If the Passport was Issued to individuals whose Certificate of Citizenship or Certificate of Naturalization was canceled.

Link

You cannot leave your nation, so your nation becomes a giant prison, doesn't it?

Do remember Stas, that the US is as large as Europe, and from one end to the other is 8 thousand kilometers. Also there is nothing stopping someone from leaving the US, it's just that coming back without a passport is difficult.