"Here Comes Honey Boo Boo" A White Minstrel Show?

[Flagg]

Has anyone else seen any of this garbage? I won't sully this board by posting YouTube links but suffice it to say you can find them and they are offensive and terrifying. S here's my question: Is this show racist against white people? Is it the equivalent to the minstrel shows of old? Or is it just exploitation of poor people with no racial overtones?

[Flagg]

Just FYI, the reason I posted this in SLAM is for some serious discussion, as opposed to "wow she's ugly and her mom looks like a thumb" comments.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

There is no meaningful way to compare any kind of offensive stereotyping done to white people with the kind of stuff that went on in minstrel shows, just due to how our society was and is set up. I haven't seen the show, but from what I've seen and read it's quite probably is terrible exploitation of lower-class Appalachian culture, which is definitely very shitty in its own right. It's definitely classist and probably... culturist? I forget the actual term there. But I think comparison to minstrel shows serves nothing but to cheapen the magnitude of them, and it really can't be classified as racism.

[ArmorPierce]

It would only be racist if that's how white people are actually seen as in society which they are not. It is not appealing to a racial stereotype.

[Flagg]

It would only be racist if that's how white people are actually seen as in society which they are not. It is not appealing to a racial stereotype.

Well it kind of is appealing to the "poor white trash" stereotype which I guess is more regionalist and classist but there are racial overtones. I agree that minstrel show is probably too strong a term but its the first thing that popped into my head when seeing some of this atrocity on YouTube. And I'm not one to whine about racism, real or imagined, directed at whites.

[Spekio]

People like to watch "freaks". I think this video may be relevant.

http://blip.tv/brows-held-high/between- ... oo-6582191

[Flagg]

People like to watch "freaks". I think this video may be relevant.

http://blip.tv/brows-held-high/between- ... oo-6582191

I think it's more than that. I think middle class white people like to watch poor white people to make themselves feel better. It's exploitation.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I'd go with classist and exploitative, at least given the few advertisements I've seen and the portrayal by South Park. I'm not really sure we could say if it, or any show for that matter, is racist or not racist without context. We'd need to know "Who's making it?", "Why are they making it?", "What is the intended audience?", along with background information. In this, case my guess would be "not racist", but without knowing the complete context I couldn't definitively say so. Heck, really classist and exploitative are just guesses on my part, as well, since I lack both the proper context and experience with the subject at hand to make a definitive statement.

Context is important in these kinds of things, show me some form of media from a different/unfamiliar culture that's racist and I may or may not pick up on it depending on my background knowledge. It's probably even debatable whether something that is considered harmful is harmful when divorced from its original context, but that a philosophical debate for another time. A good real life example of this was some of the Obama as a chimp stuff posted here shortly after he took office. IIRC the poster was not American's and thus unaware of the historical racial connotations of such an image. They likely saw others posting similar images of Bush, and lacking proper context, mistakenly assumed it would be just as uncontroversial.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think it would be a stretch to call it "racist," at least in the strictest sense of the word. They are presenting the "poor white trash" / Appalachian / redneck / whatever subculture up as the target of mockery; that is, all else being equal, I don't think the fact that they are white is at all an object of mockery, but rather the entire package. You could argue that being white is inextricable from "poor white trash," I suppose.

[LadyTevar]

Honey BooBoo is the lowest form of Appalachian white-trash that you could ever scrape off your boot. How she's a beauty-pagent star I'll never understand. She and her family are all the worst stereotypes of obese unhealthy toothless holler-trash I have seen in my life.

They are worse than The Cousins Up Yonder (term for the ones you don't associate with because they're that backwoods)

[Purple]

People like to watch "freaks". I think this video may be relevant.

http://blip.tv/brows-held-high/between- ... oo-6582191

I think it's more than that. I think middle class white people like to watch poor white people to make themselves feel better. It's exploitation.

As someone who watches and enjoys the show I can in fact confirm this. But I don't think its racist or anything like that. It's just the modern cable TV equivalent of the old circus sideshows. Come see the bearded woman, the roach-boy and the little redneck beauty queen. It's not meant to offend any particular group. It just serves to give us something to point and laugh at with a healthy mixture of fascination and disgust.

[Simon_Jester]

Honey BooBoo is the lowest form of Appalachian white-trash that you could ever scrape off your boot. How she's a beauty-pagent star I'll never understand.

She won that as a little child. Small children are automatically cute no matter where they come from.

[Zaune]

As someone who watches and enjoys the show I can in fact confirm this. But I don't think its racist or anything like that. It's just the modern cable TV equivalent of the old circus sideshows. Come see the bearded woman, the roach-boy and the little redneck beauty queen. It's not meant to offend any particular group. It just serves to give us something to point and laugh at with a healthy mixture of fascination and disgust.

You do know circus freakshows like that died out when everyone finally realised they were really creepy and exploitative, right?

[Purple]

As someone who watches and enjoys the show I can in fact confirm this. But I don't think its racist or anything like that. It's just the modern cable TV equivalent of the old circus sideshows. Come see the bearded woman, the roach-boy and the little redneck beauty queen. It's not meant to offend any particular group. It just serves to give us something to point and laugh at with a healthy mixture of fascination and disgust.

You do know circus freakshows like that died out when everyone finally realised they were really creepy and exploitative, right?

Ah how much faith you have in human kind. But no, I do not believe that this is the case. The reason why they died out is because the opinion of the general public shifted to the point where it was no longer "correct" to point and laugh at this particular group of people. It was newer a case of the practice being deemed bad, only the particular targets no longer being seen as viable. Human society likes to shift that way every now and than to give us the impression that we are "enlightened" in comparison to the last generation. Human kind has always had some acceptable target to point and laugh at. It's just our nature. It used to be freaks, now it's white trash. And who knows what the next generation will bring.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

If you're going to smugly lord your superiority over the plebs could you at least have it be because you're actually trying to improve things instead of just as an excuse for your shittiness?

PS "It's not racist because it's not meant to offend" is one of the worse arguments I've seen lately.

[Purple]

If you're going to smugly lord your superiority over the plebs could you at least have it be because you're actually trying to improve things instead of just as an excuse for your shittiness?

I am not sure why you got the impression I was doing that. But I assure you I had no intention to do so. I am just very cynical of human kind in general. No offense was meant to anyone here.

PS "It's not racist because it's not meant to offend" is one of the worse arguments I've seen lately.

Honestly I find that "racist" has become the new "fascist" now a days. And I mean that in the Orwellian sense. That is to say when ever someone dislikes a show on television or a joke or what ever they tend to try and prove that it is "racist" or "culturally insensitive". Hell I can link you to a thread on another forum that actually advocates with a strait face that the Jeep Cherokee is racist.

The "it's not meant to offend anyone" comment, which I assume you are referring to must thus be seen in this context. That is to say it translates to me saying that I feel this is another case of people being outraged over nothing and blowing it out of proportion.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

You're free to think that 99% of pointing out racism is people being outraged over nothing, because you're free to be wrong whenever you want. The fact that you think that as a person who both does not experience the effects of racism firsthand nor appears to be capable of understanding another human's perspective you are a better judge of this than people who do have to face the effects of discrimination and such is also pretty amazing, but not surprising.

Have you ever considered that it goes the other way around? That people may like things less because the racist aspects make it worse for them? Or hell, the outlandish idea that they say things are racist because they think they are racist and not as some weapon to try to "attack" things they think are dumb or bad in other ways?

Do you realise people routinely point out the problematic elements of things they like? I just finished talking somewhere else about the racism and sexism in A Song of Ice and Fire, and I really like the books and show both. This alone should firmly torpedo your total misunderstanding of this stuff, but I won't be surprised if it somehow doesn't.

If you're going to talk about the true reality of human nature that's left you so cynical, you could at least come from the perspective that the bad things that make you cynical are bad, rather than "human nature is shit, so it's okay if I'm shitty, too". That's what I meant with that first line.

[Purple]

You're free to think that 99% of pointing out racism is people being outraged over nothing, because you're free to be wrong whenever you want. The fact that you think that as a person who both does not experience the effects of racism firsthand nor appears to be capable of understanding another human's perspective you are a better judge of this than people who do have to face the effects of discrimination and such is also pretty amazing, but not surprising.

I am not even sure where this came from. As I find it hard to relate it to anything I actually wrote. The best sense I can make of it is that you think I am somehow unable to tell racism apart from other stuff. Something which really does not make sense with anything I wrote at all. I would appreciate it if you would in the future reign in your imagination just a tad bit.

Have you ever considered that it goes the other way around? That people may like things less because the racist aspects make it worse for them? Or hell, the outlandish idea that they say things are racist because they think they are racist and not as some weapon to try to "attack" things they think are dumb or bad in other ways?

I think you are just a tad bit confused with what I was trying to say. Or rather that you did not understand one word of it. And combined with some sort of emotional response you had bottled up it really has ended up in a mess. I newer claimed that the media was devoid of racism or that racism is somehow not bad. It very much is. I just claimed that in this particular case like in many others the claim of racism is misplaced and based not on reality but on an emotional response. And that I have seen a lot of such cases recently.

I find that often people start just like our OP with the words: "X is offensive to me" and end up concluding that it's racist. When really it's just not. And the examples range from the wrong (this case) to the ridiculous (the Jeep Cherokee example). We should be careful in how we apply the label. You can't just call anything you want racism. And people do. In fact this show in particular and this thread are an excellent example of the kind of case I am referring to. Even the most basic examination of it will show that it makes no pretenses at claiming that the majority of the white race is like these people. It's not "look at white culture" but "look at these particular idiots." The fact that the people being filmed are both white and depicted in a negative light does not automatically make it racist. There also has to be an obvious intent to stereotype the white race through them. And that is just not there. They are always clearly shown as a small group of stupid idiots to be laughed at while they interact with the generally sane and normal mixed race world around them. There are plenty of sane, healthy white individuals appearing. And yet that is not what this thread is about.

Do you realise people routinely point out the problematic elements of things they like? I just finished talking somewhere else about the racism and sexism in A Song of Ice and Fire, and I really like the books and show both. This alone should firmly torpedo your total misunderstanding of this stuff, but I won't be surprised if it somehow doesn't.

And how does that relate to anything I said or wrote? I am going to have to politely ask you to quote the parts you think are relevant when responding. Or to explain your logic otherwise.

I am not as you seem to think disputing his right for a personal taste. He can hate the show all he wants and argue against it all day for all I care. He has the right to point out things he dislikes. But the argument here was not "it's disgusting" or "it's degrading" or it's what ever else that would have actually sounded relevant but it's "racist". And once you go down that road you dilute the meaning of that word.

If you're going to talk about the true reality of human nature that's left you so cynical, you could at least come from the perspective that the bad things that make you cynical are bad, rather than "human nature is shit, so it's okay if I'm shitty, too". That's what I meant with that first line.

Does the label I apply to something change its nature? I mean sure, it's bad. It's bad that people like mocking other people and enjoy seeing others who are worse than them. It's bad that you can indeed make your self larger by making others feel smaller. But that is human nature. We are what we are. And if you would for a moment stop and accept that you will see the show and its ilk for what they are. They are not some evil dark concoction brewed up by subhuman monsters. They are instead a logical derivative of our nature and needs and the technology we have to fulfill them. A way of releasing that part of our nature without harm to anyone. It's exactly the same as with violent video games. And the best part is that its perfectly safe and friendly. Even if it is reality television it's still television. No one gets hurt, I get my laughs and they get their money. So everyone wins. What is there to be outraged about?

[Losonti Tokash]

There's so much fucked up shit in that post that I'm not sure where to start, but mostly I'm curious why you think people who consider the Jeep Cherokee's name to be problematic are ridiculous.

Edit: Also, saying "I didn't mean to offend," does not make something non-offensive, nor does it make the people offended wrong for being so.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

The reason much of what I'm saying seems incomprehensible to you is likely because, as I mentioned, you have no personal experience with racism and don't seem to be the kind of person who'd put any effort into seeking out and incorporating others' perspectives into your understanding, so you can't learn anything from people who have.

Again, have you ever considered that when people point out that something is racist, if you don't see it it doesn't mean it's not there? That you don't see it because of a difference in perspective but that doesn't make it any less real?

As for television not hurting anyone, the more television people watch, the worse they feel about themselves and their place in the world. The one exception? Straight white men. I wonder why this might be? And this is in addition to the secondary effects of media shaping perception.

[CaptHawkeye]

Purple's perspective on stereotyping is sadly typical of many young adults trying to rationalize what is just an irresponsible perception of people who are different. It would be nice if practical experience with *real* people had taught him that media programming based on perpetuating unhealthy lifestyles is just plain ol exploitation. Much in the same way a circus had physically crippled or deformed people in freak sideshows 100 years ago.

I literally lol'ed when he started rambling about human nature being an excuse for all this though.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm not going to defend Purple's primary argument, but the peanut gallery hasn't even demonstrated why "Honey Boo Boo" is racist in the first place. Unless your think "poor white trash" is a race.

Something can be offensive without being racist. You people realize this, right? Discussions of racism in the abstract are a non sequitir.

[Losonti Tokash]

I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that it's not racist, just classist and exploitative.

[Flagg]

I'm not going to defend Purple's primary argument, but the peanut gallery hasn't even demonstrated why "Honey Boo Boo" is racist in the first place. Unless your think "poor white trash" is a race.

Something can be offensive without being racist. You people realize this, right? Discussions of racism in the abstract are a non sequitir.

Hey dickweed, maybe if you'd bothered to read the thread you'd have realized we decided it wasn't racist pretty quickly. Idiot.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Hey dickweed, maybe if you'd bothered to read the thread you'd have realized we decided it wasn't racist pretty quickly. Idiot.

I wasn't addressing you, and you weren't even involved in the conversation I was addressing, so why don't you pull that stick out of your ass, alright? For your blood pressure if nothing else.