Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

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Kane Starkiller
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:To get double the absolute number of white people murdered by black people as black people murdered by white people, you dont need to multiply by 15, which is what you suggest. You need to multiply by 2. Double the the number of black murderers, or give each black person 2 murders to commit.
I think this is where your confusion stems from. I didn't calculate the total number of whites killed by blacks and vice versa. This comes straight from the publication on page 13 chart 19.
From the chart we can see that black-on-white murders comprised roughly 10% of all murders and white-on-black comprised 5% of all murders. Therefore the total number of black-on-white murders was 2 times greater than total number of white-on-black murders.
If the population of white people and the population of black people was the same then the rate of crossracial crimes would be 2 times greater for blacks.
Since the black population is 7.7 times smaller than white population that means that blacks need to kill whites at 15 times the rate of white people to rack up 2 times higher body count.

Never did I suggest that you need to multiply anything with 15. 15 is the result of the equation not the input:
(1)CrossracialMurderRateForBlacks=NumberOfCrossracialMurdersCommitedByBlacks/PopulationOfBlacks
(2)CrossracialMurderRateForWhites=NumberOfCrossracialMurdersCommitedByWhites/PopulationOfWhites

NumberOfCrossracialMurdersCommitedByBlacks=2xNumberOfCrossracialMurdersCommitedByWhites
PopulationOfBlacks=(1/7.7)*PopulationOfWhites

therefore

CrossracialMurderRateForBlacks=2xNumberOfCrossracialMurdersCommitedByWhites/(1/7.7)*PopulationOfWhites
CrossracialMurderRateForBlacks=15.4xNumberOfCrossracialMurdersCommitedByWhites/PopulationOfWhites

Now we divide (1) and (2) to get:
CrossracialMurderRateForBlacks/CrossracialMurderRateForWhites=15.4


I never claimed that most of the murders happen between races. The fact however remains: a black person is 15 times as likely to kill a white person than vice versa and a black person is 8 times as likely to commit a murder (regardless of victim's race) than a white person.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Just to be sure I wasn't making a moral judgment regarding the higher black-on-white crime rate or suggesting that it is caused by blacks specifically targeting whites.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Simon_Jester »

Kane, it doesn't matter, your math is wrong even if it isn't racist.

If murders were totally random, blacks would kill non-blacks at exactly the same rate that non-blacks would kill blacks. Alyrium just proved this.

Therefore, by your argument, even if murders are totally random and no one has anything unusual to fear from any person, "black people kill whites 7 times more often" simply because non-blacks make up most of the pool of potential targets.

Of course, whites would ALSO kill non-blacks "7 times more often" than they kill blacks, because whites make up the majority of the pool of random targets.

Your entire argument about murder rates and magically multiplying by the ratio of non-blacks to blacks in the country is foolish. And it gives whites exactly the wrong advice on how to avoid being murdered- they should be worried about their white friends and acquaintances, not random black strangers.

This multiplication by 7 turns a meaningful number that you started with into a useless number that cannot serve any purpose except shock value for people ignorant of statistics.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Kane Starkiller »

As I indicated in my opening post vast majority of blacks are killed by other blacks and the same goes for whites:most are killed by other whites.
The much higher black-on-white murder rate was simply given as a demonstration that the idea that whites perform more violence on blacks is not true and might have been overplayed by me in retrospect.

However the salient point still remains that blacks at 13% of the population are still responsible for 50% of the murders in the last 30 years for a 8 times greater murder rate.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

From the chart we can see that black-on-white murders comprised roughly 10% of all murders and white-on-black comprised 5% of all murders. Therefore the total number of black-on-white murders was 2 times greater than total number of white-on-black murders.
WHich is exactly what I just did for my thought experiment above. I simulated these exact same conditions and walked you through the math step by step.

So long as the chance that any one person will commit murder against any other person is exactly the same, the number of cross racial murders will always be identical for both races. Always. It does not matter what the population percentages are.

Here. Let me show you. 10% murderer, 130 blacks in the population 870 whites, exactly as it is in the subset of the population we are considering (I am not considering hispanics and everyone else etc)

87*.13=White people kill 11.31 blacks, rounded to 11
13*.87=Black people kill 11.31 white people, rounded to 11

To get the number of white people killed by black people to say, 22, all you need to do is double the chance of a black person being a murderer to 20% or give the original 10% a quota of 2 murders instead of 1, or some multiplicative combination of the two.

The problem you have is not in the numbers. It is your interpretation. You dont know what the numbers actually mean.
The much higher black-on-white murder rate was simply given as a demonstration that the idea that whites perform more violence on blacks is not true and might have been overplayed by me in retrospect.
Then you are committing a non-sequiter. All those murders, all of them, do not count Official Violence. Everyone knows there is a problem with crime in the black community, they commit double the violent crime than would be expected by chance (see my earlier post, 12.6% black population committing 22.4% of the violent crime). The problem is that they are not treated equally by the criminal justice system.

They are more likely to be arrested than they are likely to commit crimes.
They are more likely to die in police custody than a white person
The outcomes of their trials are different than the outcomes of trials for white people

And now to prove those statements.

....

They arrested more often(38% of arrests for violent crime, but only commit 22.4% of it)

They are flat-out left to die in police custody more frequently. We would expect that with 30% of people arrested for all crime, and assuming rates of illness and accident are the same, that 30% of deaths in police custody from those causes would be black people. They are not. 42% of accidental deaths (trip, fall, hit your head and die sort of deaths) are black people. 37% of deaths from illness were black people.

And then the clincher. 42% of deaths from intoxication are black people. Remember, this is in police custody. So, we have more deaths from people who are overdosing on drugs or have alcohol poisoning than we should. The police literally let these people die.

You might be able to claim that more black people come in sick or on drugs. That does not track, because drug abuse rates are higher for white people than black people, and illness affects both equally. Then what about the accident rate? It is 1.4 times what it should be as a percent of the population in police custody. How the fuck does that happen? They are accidents they are random by definition. I will tell you how it happens. Some of those are not accidents, that is how it happens. They are murders that get called accidents.

So, let us compare likelihoods between races.

30% black in police custody
60% whites in police custody Note: some percent of these are white hispanics. The US has a very very very tiny percent of black hispanics, less than a percent. So, I will add them to the analysis by assuming 8.7%, subtracted from the 60% are white hispanics. This should yield conservative estimates, given that until the newest UCR that will come out next year, latino arrests are not tracked and assumed to be at the same rate as white people.

So a total of 51.3% of those in police custody are non-hispanic whites. The DOJ DOES tabulate hispanics, which is why I had to account for them above.

So, murdered by police in custody
White people: .448/.513=.842
Black people:.30/.30=1
Hispanic: .202/.087=2.32
Odds Ratio Blacks vs Whites: 1/.842=1.18
Odds Ratio White Hispanic vs White: 2.32/.842=2.76

This means that a black person is 18% more likely than a white person to be murdered by police in police custody. A hispanic is 276% more likely.

"Accidents"
White People: .372/.513=.725
Black People: .423/.3=1.41
Hispanics: .182/.087=2.09
Odds Ratio Blacks vs Whites: 1.42/.725=1.95
Odds Ratio Hispanics vs Whites: 2.09/.725=2.88

Pretty much the same basic pattern for everything else.

A note, I can update these numbers when the new UCR comes out next year. I assumed hispanics make up the same proportion that they do in the general population, and subtracted that from the white population.

...

Then there is the bias in the legal system.

A white person kills a white person and claims self defense. They have a set probability of being found innocent of murder on that basis. A black person kills a white person, and they have a chance of acquittal that is 70% lower. A white person kills a black person? They have a chance of being found innocent that is 230% higher. Odds Ratio: 3.28, a black person who kills a white person is 3.28 times more likely to be convicted of murder if they claim self defense, as a white person who kills a black person.

...

That is why people are pissed off. Non-white people are over and above more likely to be victimized by the police and court system--the very things supposed to defend them--than white people are.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Crown »

Havok wrote:The difference Crown is talking about is that the motives are being played up as racist in this case, while in the OJ case the racism was used to get the acquittal, but no one freaked out because the Juice (allegedly) killed two white people.

I gotta be honest with you guys, I think we would have been better served if these idiots would have just killed each other.
Yes, sorry I shouldn't have posted what I posted and then gone to work, but that's pretty much it.

But my overriding point is that that we can go round and round in circles as to whether Trayvon's race was a factor in Zimmerman's mind and we'll never really know with the evidence at hand, but what is from my mind obvious is that I believe Trayvon would be alive and well if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, because if he didn't have a gun there was no way he would have got out of that car.

But we're not talking about that.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by CarsonPalmer »

Crown wrote:
Havok wrote:The difference Crown is talking about is that the motives are being played up as racist in this case, while in the OJ case the racism was used to get the acquittal, but no one freaked out because the Juice (allegedly) killed two white people.

I gotta be honest with you guys, I think we would have been better served if these idiots would have just killed each other.
Yes, sorry I shouldn't have posted what I posted and then gone to work, but that's pretty much it.

But my overriding point is that that we can go round and round in circles as to whether Trayvon's race was a factor in Zimmerman's mind and we'll never really know with the evidence at hand, but what is from my mind obvious is that I believe Trayvon would be alive and well if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, because if he didn't have a gun there was no way he would have got out of that car.

But we're not talking about that.
I don't think anybody can say for sure if race played a factor in Zimmerman's mind. I think I'd put myself at 80% yes, but you're right about that.

What is 100% certain is that the reaction among the American public was almost entirely dictated by race.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Flagg »

CarsonPalmer wrote:
Crown wrote:
Havok wrote:The difference Crown is talking about is that the motives are being played up as racist in this case, while in the OJ case the racism was used to get the acquittal, but no one freaked out because the Juice (allegedly) killed two white people.

I gotta be honest with you guys, I think we would have been better served if these idiots would have just killed each other.
Yes, sorry I shouldn't have posted what I posted and then gone to work, but that's pretty much it.

But my overriding point is that that we can go round and round in circles as to whether Trayvon's race was a factor in Zimmerman's mind and we'll never really know with the evidence at hand, but what is from my mind obvious is that I believe Trayvon would be alive and well if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, because if he didn't have a gun there was no way he would have got out of that car.

But we're not talking about that.
I don't think anybody can say for sure if race played a factor in Zimmerman's mind. I think I'd put myself at 80% yes, but you're right about that.

What is 100% certain is that the reaction among the American public was almost entirely dictated by race.
Well lets see, every time Zimmerman called the cops it was about black males in his neighborhood, his niece whom he allegedly molested claims he and his entire family are virulently racist against blacks, and his profiling and calling Martin a fucking punk and asshole, as well as referring to him as a suspect after the murder... There's more. His total lack of remorse afterwards saying it was gods plan that he murder a child. I mean at what point does it become a certainty that he went after Martin based on race? Does he have to call him the nword or can we recognize subtlety?
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Patroklos »

Flagg wrote:Well lets see, every time Zimmerman called the cops it was about black males in his neighborhood, his niece whom he allegedly molested claims he and his entire family are virulently racist against blacks, and his profiling and calling Martin a fucking punk and asshole, as well as referring to him as a suspect after the murder... There's more. His total lack of remorse afterwards saying it was gods plan that he murder a child. I mean at what point does it become a certainty that he went after Martin based on race? Does he have to call him the nword or can we recognize subtlety?
The bolded portions have zero relevance to determining racial profiling.

You are also neglecting to mention that Zimmerman never volunteered the race of Martin, the dispatcher had to specifically ask him that.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Metahive »

So, Martin's history is totally relevant to "prove" that it was right for Z to stalk him with a gun (up to including Beowulf speculating that Martin was scouting out locations for theft), but Z's history mustn't be delved into, got it. Totally not hypocrisy.
You are also neglecting to mention that Zimmerman never volunteered the race of Martin, the dispatcher had to specifically ask him that.
Z's got a history of making quite a few 911 calls about black people just ambling through his neighborhood, including 7-9 year olds. You honestly gotta' tell me that doesn't point to Z being, say, a bit racially challenged?

Here's a sample
45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male “late teens lsw[last seen wearing] dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”

44. Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “BM[Black male] lsw: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location

41. Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area

39. Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”

38. Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood

36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Juvenile black maleapprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts
So, he didn't mention race this time, whoop-di-fucking-shit. It was still a black youth he zeroed in onto for the crime of walking through his neighborhood while possessing too much melanin.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

mr friendly guy wrote: I don't have time to research every one of those cases, but how many of those did not have any witnesses alive?
Just one of them.
That remains to be seen doesn't it?

Yeah, they would have less benefit. They would have questionable tactics (ie following instead of waiting for police), not procedure for identification, and while not corruption, arguably incompetence. Don't see how that makes them MORE likely to end up finding the right wanted person, as opposed to following some other person.

1. Against the standard that this scenario will become common place - I think its possible, most likely will not become common. However..
2. If you recall, I was comparing against the standard you propose, that the vigilante just happens to end up following the real wanted person. I contend that they are likely to follow some other person than just so happen to stumble upon the wanted person because of mistaken identity. You can argue that the confrontation might not necessarily lead to what I describe, but it seems mind boggling that you think some wannabe vigilante with a wanted poster following people he thinks looks like it matches a wanted poster, ends up following the right guy as opposed to mistaking them from a distance.

The same liberties used for the most part in Zimmerman's case. We don't know who started the fight in my scenario either, in the sense we didn't know if the victim did look like he was going to reach for a gun, because the only witness is kind of dead.
At this point we're just arguing opinions so I don't see any point in continuing on this. We'll just have to wait until something like that actually happens and ensure that it meets on those requirements
Thats taking liberties. He followed Martin because he thought he might be doing something suspicious, but at the time he was just visiting relatives. So yeah, he did mistake Martin for someone else, albeit not a specific person.
Mistaken identity is mistaking someone else for a specific person.
I don't want to take away self defence. I do however want some legal ramification for people that can all but start a confrontation (via following someone) and then claim self defense. I am quite willing to agree that there must be some leeway before it counts as starting a confrontation but that requires fine tuning.
I agree here.
What do you think I have been trying to say when I point out weaknesses in this system? :wtf:
The scenarios serve as a distraction. If you would have just said "I do however want some legal ramification for people that can all but start a confrontation (via following someone) and then claim self defense." then we wouldn't have had this multi post discussion.
Do you mean contrived as in constructed, because all hypotheticals are by nature contrived. Or contrived as in improbable. Because I am pretty certain this case would have been considered contrived it I proposed this scenario in 2011 as a thought experiment too.
True. Replace contrived with unlikely.
I am thinking of that too except with some definition of what is considered "reasonable suspect of committing a crime", or failing that, if the person followed turned out not to be the person suspected of a crime (whether you had a reasonable suspicion or not), then you are still liable.
Here is an example of reasonably suspecting someone of a crime. You watch a guy run by and another person says "Call 911 that guy just robbed the store". You didn't actually witness the robbery but you can reasonable suspect that because communicated that to you.

Watching someone walk around a public area like an apartment complex would not count unless you watched them trying to open multiple windows or try multiple car doors of a different make model.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote: I don't have time to research every one of those cases, but how many of those did not have any witnesses alive?
Just one of them.
Actually, none of them do. That's really the point. Even Zimmerman had witnesses. It will be extremely difficult to meet all those other criteria in addition to there also being no witnesses.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Thank you.

Mr. Friendly Guy would you say your objection to US self defense laws is due to firearms rather than language?
1. I am from WA, not NSW. The state where you can punch someone to death and claim that its his head hitting the pavement not your fist, that did the damage, even though their head wouldn't hit the pavement if you didn't punch him in the first place. This happened several times. With the judges downgrading the charge because of that argument. Google one punch deaths Western Australia.
Well, it's easy to argue that you didn't intend on killing someone when you punched them in the head. It makes sense that it would be downgraded from murder to manslaughter.
2. What is with the Americans obsession with firearms? :wtf: I used gun example because its easier to kill someone with a gun than unarmed or some other weapon available to the public, assuming you had training.
Exactly. Had Zimmerman not had a gun then it is likely both would be alive even with if self defense laws are unchanged. Applying lethal levels of physical force is more likely to incapacitate first before death occurs.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Patroklos »

Metahive wrote:So, Martin's history is totally relevant to "prove" that it was right for Z to stalk him with a gun (up to including Beowulf speculating that Martin was scouting out locations for theft), but Z's history mustn't be delved into, got it. Totally not hypocrisy.
I don't recall claiming Martin's history was relevant to racial profiling.

The only situation where Martin's history is relevant is as a counter point to all the "skittles and sweet tea" crap. Teenagers committ horrendous crimes all the time and I bet all of them like candy. Zimmerman did not know about either at the time, so prosecution claims to paint Martin as clean as the driven snow and defense efforts to paint him as a drug fiend are both irrelevant outside proving that irrelevance on each other.
Z's got a history of making quite a few 911 calls about black people just ambling through his neighborhood, including 7-9 year olds. You honestly gotta' tell me that doesn't point to Z being, say, a bit racially challenged?
Where those people black? If so why is it racist to note that? Obviously the dispatcher had no problem explicity asking about race when it wasn't volunteered, is he a racist too?
Here's a sample
45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male “late teens lsw[last seen wearing] dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”

44. Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “BM[Black male] lsw: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location

41. Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area

39. Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”

38. Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood

36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Juvenile black maleapprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts
Again, were these people black? Why is it racist to note that?
So, he didn't mention race this time, whoop-di-fucking-shit. It was still a black youth he zeroed in onto for the crime of walking through his neighborhood while possessing too much melanin.
...at night, in the rain, looking around at houses, in a gated community where he didn't recognize him as a resident, when the neighborhood was experiancing a rash of burgleries...

I don't know the answer to this, but has Zimmerman ever reported anyone who wasn't black?

And this time is the time that matters. If you had evidence of Zimmerman posting on Stormfront or attending KKK meetings thats one thing, otherwise you just have instances of Zimmerman doing exactly what a neighborhood watch is supposed to do.
Last edited by Patroklos on 2013-07-19 11:04am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote: At this point we're just arguing opinions so I don't see any point in continuing on this. We'll just have to wait until something like that actually happens and ensure that it meets on those requirements
This was back in 1992 the decision by the local cops not to charge and then the acquittal by a jury just defies all reason from my perspective.

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It seems to me that there are too many factors in the US justice system to make reliable predictions on how any action would go. So, you could easily be right.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Flagg »

Patroklos wrote:*snip obtuseness*
When every fucking call he makes is about black males in his neighborhood don't you fucking think that may just be a tad bit obvious that he's profiling by race and is thus a racist?
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Patroklos »

Except if you read all 46 incidents from the above posted link most involving people did not even identify race and at least one mentions hispanic and white individuals. Try again.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Flagg »

Of course, the ONE suspicious activity call regarding Hispanics totally absolves him of the vast majority being identified as black or not being identified racially at all. You sir take the fucking cake. Congratulations, you are Captain Obtuse. You are right though, he only called about suspicious black people in almost every case not every single case.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Patroklos »

Flagg wrote:Of course, the ONE suspicious activity call regarding Hispanics totally absolves him of the vast majority being identified as black or not being identified racially at all. You sir take the fucking cake. Congratulations, you are Captain Obtuse. You are right though, he only called about suspicious black people in almost every case not every single case.
Almost every case eh? At first it looked like you were going to be honest, but then you go off the the rails yet again...

At least you were smart enough to be evasive enough not to say "every fucking call" this time. So what qualifies as "almost every case"? 90%, 80%, 50%? Whatever percent reality is so you can keep shoehorning racism wherever is most entertaining to you?

46 reports, two of which are repeats. I count 17 that report actual people, I did not include cars where the driver was not explicity described as being observed or his ex roomate woes. Of those 17 reports (as described in the link) only 5 identified black males and twelve either didn't have an race identification or were identified as another race. Would you care to do the percentages on that or should I?
Last edited by Patroklos on 2013-07-19 11:36am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Flagg »

Patroklos wrote:
Flagg wrote:Of course, the ONE suspicious activity call regarding Hispanics totally absolves him of the vast majority being identified as black or not being identified racially at all. You sir take the fucking cake. Congratulations, you are Captain Obtuse. You are right though, he only called about suspicious black people in almost every case not every single case.
Almost every case eh? At first it looked like you were going to be honest, but then you go off the the rails yet again...

At least you were smart enough to be evasive enough not to say "every fucking call" this time. So what qualifies as "almost every case"? 90%, 80%, 50%? Whatever percent reality is so you can keep shoehorning racism wherever is most entertaining to you?
Read the fucking article, Captain Obtuse. Almost every "suspicious person" call that includes race describes black males. It's clear as day.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Patroklos »

Lies, lies, and more lies...
28. Feb. 27, 2010 – 4:46 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Residence w/a lot of [suspicious] activity” … “multiple vehs are constantly coming to the” location … “unk subs run out to the vehs and run back inside” … “the subjs are always outside w/the garage open” … “the subjs hang out towards the st all night//ongoing problem”

10. June 24, 2007 – 12:48 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “By the pool”, two Hispanic males and one white male with “slim jim”

8. Sept. 23, 2005 – 7:03 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Zimmerman’s “little sister just call him from above” his address and advises “there was a” suspicious person “at the front door”

1. Aug. 12, 2004 – 9:59 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Places a call reporting a male in a green Ford pickup
Again Captain Ambiguous, what qualifies as "almost every case"? 90%, 80%, 50%? Whatever percent reality is so you can keep shoehorning racism wherever is most entertaining to you
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Flagg »

You're accusing me of lying yet you just picked out the 4 instances of suspicious activity in which a black person wasn't the one accused of being suspicious? :lol: And I'm under no obligation to do math for you, Captain Obtuse.

So I'll just post the entire article and let people decide for themselves.:
George Zimmerman’s History of 911 Calls: A Complete Log
Mar 22, 2012 7:22 PM EDT
The dozens of calls to police Zimmerman made in the years before he shot Trayvon Martin.

Along with the audio recordings of six calls to Sanford police that George Zimmerman made in the weeks before the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, the Sanford Police Department has posted reports of 46 911 and nonemergency calls it says Zimmerman made between August 2004 and Martin’s shooting.

The Daily Beast has compiled a list of the calls from the reports. Verbatim excerpts of the reports appear in quotes. An explanation of Sanford County police codes can be found here.
General Terms:

TEL = non-911 police number (answered by 911 dispatcher)

BM = black male

LSW = last seen wearing

46. Feb. 26, 2012 – 7:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Repeats prior report


45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male “late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”


44. Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “BM lsw: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location


43. Jan. 29, 2012 – 5:38 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Children “running and playing in the street”

42. Dec. 10, 2011 – 5:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “At the club house” … “Male subject [arrived on scene] that thought he was employed by” Zimmerman … “Subj is expected to get paid for serving food.” … Zimmerman “said that he didn’t wish him to serve at the [event]” … Zimmerman “hired someone else, subj sounded upset and wants to get paid”


41. Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area


40. Sept. 23, 2011 – 11:08 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Neighbor/Suspicious activity
Report: Zimmerman reports “open garage door” … Describes “neighborhood watch mtg last night with Sgt Herx who [advised] to report anything [suspicious]” … Zimmerman “is part of neighborhood watch” and is concerned because of recent burglaries in the area


39. Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”


38. Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood


37. May 27, 2011 – 9:18 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Alarm
Report: Zimmerman “has a self responding alarm that just notified him of” an alarm at this location


36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts


35. March 18, 2011 – 9:26 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Animals
Report: Zimmerman requested an officer meet him regarding a pit bull in his garage


34. Nov. 26, 2010 – 2:54 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Alarm
Report: Zimmerman was out of town and a motion alarm he monitors himself went off


33. Nov. 8, 2010 – 6:54 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Maintenance
Report: Zimmerman reports “trash in roadwy”


32. Oct. 2, 2010 – 1:55 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Zimmerman reports “blu jeep grand Cherokee female driver yelling at elderly passengers … windows are tinted” … “the veh was rocking back and forth and he could hear the female yelling”


31. June 26, 2010 – 11:00 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “Loud party … approx 50 subjs & blocking the street”


30. June 12, 2010 – 11:13 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Subject “at the clubhouse & pool areas having a party”


29. April 28, 2010 – 9:02 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “White older model four-door Buick or Oldsmobile” obstructing road


28. Feb. 27, 2010 – 4:46 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Residence w/a lot of [suspicious] activity” … “multiple vehs are constantly coming to the” location … “unk subs run out to the vehs and run back inside” … “the subjs are always outside w/the garage open” … “the subjs hang out towards the st all night//ongoing problem”


27. Jan. 12, 2010 – 10:25 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Neighbor
Report: Open garage door … Zimmerman says “this is very unlike his neighbor” … “there is a lot of electronics in the resd and posb in the garage”


26. Jan. 1, 2010 – 4:34 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Zimmerman reports reckless driver in “purplish Ford Ranger single cab”

25. Nov. 3, 2009 – 5:04 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: White Ford F350 that was “cutting people off”


24. Nov. 21, 2009 – 2:26 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Unclear


23. Oct. 23, 2009 – 9:18 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Animals
Report: “Aggressive white and brown pitbull” sitting outside Zimmerman’s home


22. Sept. 22, 2009 – 6:00 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “Yellow speed bike … was speeding and weaving in and out of traffic and doing wheelies”


21. Sept. 7, 2009 – 9:01 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Maintenance
Report: “Pot hole in the road” … “it is deep and can cause damage to vehicles”


20. Aug. 26, 2009  - 8:35 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Gold Caprice … male driving with no headlights … speeding”


19. Aug. 21, 2009 – 6:57 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Conflict
Report: “Landlord is trying to take [Zimmerman’s] money for rent … and home in foreclosure”


18. June 16, 2009 – 3:50 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Persons in the pool area playing basketball, “jumpin over the fence going into pool area and trashin the bathroom”


17. June 10, 2009 – 1:55 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Alarm
Report: Fire alarm going off


16. May 4, 2009 – 4:07 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Reports a blue Audi A4


15. March 12, 2009 – 6:58 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Patrol
Report: Patrol request between March 13 and March 22


14. Jan. 5, 2009 – 10:53 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Alarm
Report: Fire alarm going off


13. Nov. 25, 2007 – 12:40 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “Ex roommate is letting people that [Zimmerman] don’t like in the” house


12. Nov. 25, 2007 – 12:21 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: White male ex-roommate last seen wearing a red Florida State University shirt


11. Oct. 14, 2007 – 4:10 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Possible criminal mischief to the tire of Zimmerman’s black Dodge Durango


10. June 24, 2007 – 12:48 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “By the pool”, two Hispanic males and one white male with “slim jim”


9. Nov. 4, 2006 – 2:37 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: A call regarding a “late model red” Toyota pickup “driving around the neighborhood and apt complex for the past 5 min”


8. Sept. 23, 2005 – 7:03 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Zimmerman’s “little sister just call him from above” his address and advises “there was a” suspicious person “at the front door”


7. Sept. 21, 2005 – 9:00 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Animals
Report: Reports a stray dog


6. April 27, 2005 – 12:40 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Neighbor
Report: Open garage door


5. March 17, 2005 – 7:21 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Maintenance
Report: Pothole “that is blocking the road”


4. Oct. 20, 2004 – 9:13 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Drunk pedestrian walking in the road


3. Aug. 20, 2004 – 11:33 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Neighbor
Report: Reports an open garage door


2. Aug.12, 2004 – 10:03 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Repeats earlier report


1. Aug. 12, 2004 – 9:59 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Places a call reporting a male in a green Ford pickup
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Thanas »

That reads like major paranoia and a lot of thin skin with the mindset of "They must be out to get me". And yeah, I kinda see where the racism claim comes from.

Sounds like he used the 911 as his personal report button.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Lies, lies, and more lies...
Dear god, you are an idiot.

I just counted up every incident on that list.

Black (Identified subjects as black):5, not counting Trayvon, 6 if we count him. All of them occurring after a number of burglaries. There are no white or hispanic people he suspects of committing burglary. Only black people.

Not Black (Identified subjects as anything but black): 2, both his old roommate who was being a dick. I did not double count, and thus did not count incidents of madness in this category.

Unknown Subjects (unknown subjects): 7, unknown subjects, almost all of them in vehicles

Alarms: 4

Busy-Body (normal neighborhood activity he arbitrarily does not like): 15, this includes people being in the pool, or having teenagers hang around in front of someone's house, and people having house parties like they are prone to sometimes do.

Insanity (anything that made me think "wtf really?"): 9

I am specifying the ones I consider insane, and giving the reason why.
5. March 17, 2005 – 7:21 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Maintenance
Report: Pothole “that is blocking the road”
He called 911 for road maintenance
7. Sept. 21, 2005 – 9:00 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Animals
Report: Reports a stray dog
Reporting a stray dog with a 911 call, as if it is some dangerous emergency that needs to be dealt with RIGHT NOW
10. June 24, 2007 – 12:48 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “By the pool”, two Hispanic males and one white male with “slim jim”
Neighborhood residents never go swimming. One of them has a suspicious looking snack meat.
11. Oct. 14, 2007 – 4:10 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Possible criminal mischief to the tire of Zimmerman’s black Dodge Durango
Obviously, because he could never possibly drive over a nail or any such other thing.
15. March 12, 2009 – 6:58 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Patrol
Report: Patrol request between March 13 and March 22
Hey, could you arbitrarily patrol my neighborhood for a while?
16. May 4, 2009 – 4:07 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Reports a blue Audi A4
Hi. My name is Zimmerman, I live in a well-off suburban neighborhood and would like to report a suspicious luxury vehicle. It is so expensive that it is damaging my calm.
19. Aug. 21, 2009 – 6:57 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Conflict
Report: “Landlord is trying to take [Zimmerman’s] money for rent … and home in foreclosure”
Help Help! I need an adult!
35. March 18, 2011 – 9:26 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Animals
Report: Zimmerman requested an officer meet him regarding a pit bull in his garage
I dont even... If the dog is secure in the garage, should you not call animal control, instead of 911 the cops?
43. Jan. 29, 2012 – 5:38 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Children “running and playing in the street”
He is reporting children doing what children do on residential streets.


So what we can we conclude? Well, Zimmerman is a hypervigilant busy-body who reports people to the police for going swimming and having house guests, and who, when prompted by the existence of actual crimes (rather than crimes that exist only in his head) racially profiles every black kid he sees, to the point of chasing one through the neighborhood and later killing him in what may or may not have actually been self defense.
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Re: Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

Post by Block »

KS, don't they start charging people a fee for 911 calls like that at some point?
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