Saddam is purging Kirkuk at this very moment.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-15 11:14am

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... g_kirkuk_1

- Ethnic cleansing courtesy of the Chirac - Schroeder concept of having our troops intimidate Saddam into letting the Inspectors work. Naturally, Saddam wants to fortify his borders with an army sitting next to them like that, and the result is this.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-15 11:22am

Ethnic cleansing? You did READ the article, didn't you?

"stories about why they fled the city of Kirkuk: a tightening noose of searches, harassment and arrests by Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s forces in the strategic oil center."

"Saddam has turned it into a military camp."

"An escalating campaign of house-to-house searches and detentions of suspected underground resistance supporters apparently has accelerated the Kurdish flight from Kirkuk"

"But they suggest Iraqi soldiers are fortifying positions at one of the potential key battlefields and trying to root out any perceived threats among the majority Kurds"

"Kirkuk could become a pivotal point in a U.S.-led attack."

"Walid Rashid, a 24-year-old Kurdish metal-shop worker in Kirkuk, said Iraqi forces were building earthen and concrete mounds and digging trenches in anticipation of an attack. Additional anti-aircraft batteries are in place, but no tanks have been seen in the city, he added."

"So far, the Iraqi forces have not blocked the route north to the Kurdish enclave. But Kurds in Kirkuk fear their avenue out could be closed if diplomatic efforts to avert war are exhausted."

"How could we remain? Saddam's military is everywhere in Kirkuk," he said. "In a war, it could become a very bloody place."

Hell, even the TITLE says: "Kurds Say Oil Center Now a Military Camp"

Notice also that the Kurds are going from one part of the country, to the other. Would you prefer that the Iraqis keep the Kurds there as human shields? Or are you now an advocate for Kurdistan?

You've confused background filler in the article about Kurd/Arab resettlement carried out by Iraq with the actual story.

Out of curiosity, would you advocate for Turkey to stop it's persecution of the Kurds? What's the difference between Iraq and Turkey in that regard?

The idea that this is somehow France and Germany's fault is also totally lame, Duchess- I don't see French and German troops on Iraq's border, do you?

If it's *any other country's fault*, you get one guess as to who is about to invade.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-15 11:34am

Anyone want to bet, that there will be NO human rights protestors chanting anti Saddam slogans

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-15 11:35am

Ethnic cleansing is different from genocide - It's removing an ethnicity from an area, which can involve either deportations or mass murder. This does fit into the first category - Saddam's men are driving the Kurds out of Kirkuk.

Furthermore, this would not be happening if Saddam had been already removed. The reason it is happening is because of this idiotic theory Chirac and Schroeder have: that if American troops sit on the borders to Iraq, it will intimidate Saddam into allowing the inspectors to work freely. However, as American troops sit on the borders, Saddam is responding by taking defensive measures like this one.

The Chirac/Schroeder method of disarmament - albeit indirectly - is leading to ethnic cleansing. Had we ignored the UN and gone in during last November, this would not be happening. Had the French and Germans not held us up in the Council, this would not be happening. But they have, because of their own stupid arrogance, and this is the result.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-15 11:37am

theski wrote:Anyone want to bet, that there will be NO human rights protestors chanting anti Saddam slogans

There have been plenty of human rights protesting about Saddam Hussein and other regimes. If you were to contend that the US ever gave a shit about any human rights protesting, I point to its propping up and support of the murderous Pinochet regime.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-15 11:39am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Ethnic cleansing is different from genocide - It's removing an ethnicity from an area, which can involve either deportations or mass murder. This does fit into the first category - Saddam's men are driving the Kurds out of Kirkuk.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but Hell, I would do the same thing...fortify
an area that's known to have lots of people who FUCKING HATE MY GUTS,
and drive them out of the area so they'll be dispersed, rather than in mass
groups..

And your definition of "Ethnic cleansing" is so loose that it could be used
to apply to how whites systematically have fled the inner cities for the last 30+ years

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-15 11:40am

Vympel, Since the march to war in Nov show me just 1 human rights protester that is anti Sadamm in the media just 1 and I can go back to plotting the fall of France..

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-15 11:44am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Ethnic cleansing is different from genocide - It's removing an ethnicity from an area, which can involve either deportations or mass murder. This does fit into the first category - Saddam's men are driving the Kurds out of Kirkuk.

There is no evidence of any 'ethnic cleansing' in that article- again, I say, you didn't read it. Kurds are fleeing because they know the place will turn into a warzone. How this is France and Germany's fault I have no idea. It is also an inevitable consequence of wars, which France and Germany do not plan to start.

Furthermore, this would not be happening if Saddam had been already removed.

What a load of bullshit. It would've happened earlier instead of later. The movement of populations in anticipation of, or during a war, is not new.

The reason it is happening is because of this idiotic theory Chirac and Schroeder have: that if American troops sit on the borders to Iraq, it will intimidate Saddam into allowing the inspectors to work freely. However, as American troops sit on the borders, Saddam is responding by taking defensive measures like this one.

Like you give a shit about inconveniencing the Kurds. They're not being trucked off to the border, they're leaving a veritable warzone and being given free passage to Kurdish enclaves. I ask again- what's the difference between Turkey and Iraq on this matter?

The Chirac/Schroeder method of disarmament - albeit indirectly - is leading to ethnic cleansing.

Only in the addled brain of a jingoist could the US Army on the border about to invade be peaceful disarmaments fault.

Had we ignored the UN and gone in during last November, this would not be happening.

You didn't have the forces to go in in November. In addition, the buildup for invasion would've been noticed and this would STILL have happened. I also find it amusing that you think this not happening is a GOOD thing. If it didn't happen, a lot of these people would BE DEAD.

Had the French and Germans not held us up in the Council, this would not be happening. But they have, because of their own stupid arrogance, and this is the result.

Actually I think it's your arrogance that you have the absolute audacity to shift the blame for the inevitable effects of a coming war onto the parties trying for peace.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-03-15 11:50am

MKSheppard wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Ethnic cleansing is different from genocide - It's removing an ethnicity from an area, which can involve either deportations or mass murder. This does fit into the first category - Saddam's men are driving the Kurds out of Kirkuk.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but Hell, I would do the same thing...fortify
an area that's known to have lots of people who FUCKING HATE MY GUTS,
and drive them out of the area so they'll be dispersed, rather than in mass
groups..

And your definition of "Ethnic cleansing" is so loose that it could be used
to apply to how whites systematically have fled the inner cities for the last 30+ years

In other words, you're fully endorsing what Saddam is doing? What Stalin did, Hitler too?!! Remind me to have an assassination team visit your palace when you're turning some third world country into Nazi Deutchland warmed-over.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-15 11:52am

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote: In other words, you're fully endorsing what Saddam is doing? What Stalin did, Hitler too?!! Remind me to have an assassination team visit your palace when you're turning some third world country into Nazi Deutchland warmed-over.

So you're saying that Iraq can't fortify it's territories, especially
KNOWN rebellious territories?

Either way, it doesn't matter what they do as they're gonna recieve
a multiple corps-level asskicking of the kind not seen since the
1st PGW.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-03-15 11:52am

Oh, and Vympel, please HoS this. It's getting ugly fast!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-15 11:54am

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:Oh, and Vympel, please HoS this. It's getting ugly fast!

How so? I don't see any flameage going on. In fact, YOU started the flameage

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-15 11:56am

Shep, the avatar, isn't this going a bit too far?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-15 11:57am

Durran Korr wrote:Shep, the avatar, isn't this going a bit too far?

Meh, I'm only keeping it a few days.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-15 11:59am

Vympel wrote:
There is no evidence of any 'ethnic cleansing' in that article- again, I say, you didn't read it. Kurds are fleeing because they know the place will turn into a warzone. How this is France and Germany's fault I have no idea. It is also an inevitable consequence of wars, which France and Germany do not plan to start.

There is evidence of ethnic cleansing in the article - I just stated what ethnic cleansing is, and anyone can read the article to see how there is - and, furthermore, it is not an inevitable consequence of wars. Many have been accomplished without the dispersal of the populace. Finally, the war has not started yet, so it is clearly not a consequence of the war regardless.

Lastly, what I'm accusing France and Germany of doing is allowing this to happen by turning the innocents in Iraq into pawns. They're pawns for their game of supporting their industrial interests in Iraq, nothing more, and even if Saddam were gassing Kirkuk they wouldn't budge on their positions.

The USA, on the other hand, at least intends to create a democratic government in Iraq - we haven't given any other intention at any rate, and every signal that we will - so whatever interests of our's might be met, we're going in with some care for the populace in mind as well.

France and Germany simply have none. They're letting this happen - massed flight, deportations, massed arrests and torture (inevitable the way the Iraqi "police" system works), the seizure of property to support military works without due recompense - without a murmur.

Those two countries are the biggest and most depraved hypocrisies in the world and you are their lavish supporter, endlessly spinning away the brutal facts while you ignore the humans who are suffering on the ground and take a supposed moral high ground - A moral high ground supported by the offal of Saddam's mangled victims, killed by French and German weapons! People like you deserve to be held in only the lowest contempt, and for all time!

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-03-15 12:00pm

It is in pretty poor taste, even for you Shep.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-03-15 12:05pm

How about we all sit by the camp HoS? Grab a stick and HoS the marshmellows! Want a nice cup of hot HoS? Please pass the HoS. LMAO

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-15 12:11pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Finally, the war has not started yet, so it is clearly not a consequence of the war regardless.

Bullshit.

The Kurds in that area are moving away because they know they will
become the prime target of Saddam's secret police during the war, and
let's be blunt. That place is a military target. I would NOT want to be on
the roads during the war, especially given the USAF's record of hitting
civilian targets in wartime (Civilian trains in Serbia)

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-15 12:11pm

What is this? No one wants Shep to have his constitutional right to free speach and really bad Avatars???

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-15 12:13pm

The hell with free speech, bad taste is bad taste.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-15 12:15pm

Just a little sarcasum!!!!!

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-15 12:21pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote: In other words, you're fully endorsing what Saddam is doing? What Stalin did, Hitler too?!! Remind me to have an assassination team visit your palace when you're turning some third world country into Nazi Deutchland warmed-over.

But it is pragmatic and it is sound military defense. Prove atrocities taking place there and then maybe you'll be right.

This is the same bullshit as in Insurrection with the comparison of moving Baku to moving the Indians on the Trail of Tears.

The reason those relocations are bad is because of atrocities.

Demonstrate atrocities, Einy.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-03-15 12:22pm

Durran Korr wrote:Shep, the avatar, isn't this going a bit too far?

It changed, but I saw it. That picture is from a INWO game card, did you get it from there?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-15 12:24pm

MKSheppard wrote: Bullshit.

The Kurds in that area are moving away because they know they will
become the prime target of Saddam's secret police during the war,

Read the fucking article, Shep. They already are a target of Saddam's secret police. You can't hit your dad but you sure as hell can shoot yourself in the foot!

and
let's be blunt. That place is a military target. I would NOT want to be on
the roads during the war, especially given the USAF's record of hitting
civilian targets in wartime (Civilian trains in Serbia)

Twice, no less! They'd be safe in their homes - Our main problems have been in mistaking if moving targets were civilian or military. You just admitted that. So why are they fleeing, instead of staying in what can be readily identified as civilian residences, and thus avoided by an air force that has a much higher percentage of smart bombs in the arsenal than during the Serb War? Because they're being driven out, of course!

You're just taking the opposite side of the argument because you hate me, and your willingness to abandon any pretense of morality - and any shred of military knowledge you might have - just to get in a cheap shot, is painfully and pathetically clear.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-15 12:25pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote: It changed, but I saw it. That picture is from a INWO game card, did you get it from there?

Yeah, I offered it to wong as a special avatar to give to racist palm-trolling
donkey fuckers like arminus (in addition to their "special" titles) no reply
as of yet...also made a fred phelps avatar for the hopeless fundies