Terrorist? Wanna Buy a Gun? The GOP Is On Your Side!

[His Divine Shadow]

Then why do you support such bullshit as a basis for potentially restricting the rights of US citizens?

It's a stupid right, it smells like poo and fuck you gun having troglodytes.

I hope that helps.

[Terralthra]

Yeah, the solution to "suspected terrorists on a no-fly list can still buy a gun" is "abolish the hidden list with hidden criteria and no way to remove yourself from it", not "ban arbitrary people from more things for no ostensible reason."

[The Kernel]

Yeah, the solution to "suspected terrorists on a no-fly list can still buy a gun" is "abolish the hidden list with hidden criteria and no way to remove yourself from it", not "ban arbitrary people from more things for no ostensible reason."

You have just single handedly violated our international obligations to respect similar lists throughout the world for money laundering, terrorist financing and travel. Now what exactly are we supposed to replace them with genius?

You are dead wrong that there is "no ostensible reason" for ending up on these lists. Have you ever browsed one of these databases before? There's a reason why you'll recognize a lot of the names--just because it isn't public what intelligence tools are used to flag people for these lists doesn't mean that they have no criteria at all.

By the way, any numbers you hear as to how many people end up on lists like these is wrong simply because the average "person" on one of these lists has between 5-10 aliases.

[Thanas]

Mike Wong's kid ended up on the list. People ended up on the list for no reason other that they had a name that sounded the same.

It is a shitty list that should be eliminated and replaced by something like Interpols list. None of that violates any agreement to cooperate whatsoever.

[The Kernel]

Thanas I'm referring to international AML law and are you aware that the US in not the only country to maintain such lists? Take a look at the sources from the link I posted earlier.

Anyway it seems like you are really arguing for improving the scrubbing processes around these lists, not abolishing them altogether.

[Thanas]

Thanas I'm referring to international AML law and are you aware that the US in not the only country to maintain such lists? Take a look at the sources from the link I posted earlier.

You mean the one regarding money laundering? Not the same as the lists we are talking about.

Anyway it seems like you are really arguing for improving the scrubbing processes around these lists, not abolishing them altogether.

No, I am saying that the TSA is such a shitty anti-meritocracy that it should be replaced by something completely new. The no-flight list itself is stupid as well. Something like the interpol list, where one actually needs evidence of wrong-doing instead of "secret evidence" and a clear cut process explaining how you ended up on the list would be necessary.

[The Kernel]

You mean the one regarding money laundering? Not the same as the lists we are talking about.

How are they materially different? What are the criteria for adding someone to an AML list and how is it a more transparent process than the TSA no-fly lists?

[Mr Bean]

You mean the one regarding money laundering? Not the same as the lists we are talking about.

How are they materially different? What are the criteria for adding someone to an AML list and how is it a more transparent process than the TSA no-fly lists?

Let's compare the Terrorist watch list to the Specially Designated Nationals List. (Your money launders and fraud folks)

First here is a text copy of the SDNL which is maintained by the US Treasury with assistance from a dozen other countries.
http://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/sdnlist.txt
Next we have the list homepage which contains links to how to get on, how to get off and who maintains the list
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center ... fault.aspx

All of this is public knowledge.
The Terrorist Watch list by contrast is a state secret, if I had a copy of it and I posted it... well congratulations I've just violated the State Secrets act and I'll be going to jail for a few decades. If you read the list and copied it well congratulations your coming with me for propagation.

That simple fact alone should tell you the difference between those two lists.

[The Kernel]

I searched your link and cannot find a reference for a process on how to get off of an OFAC list. Can you provide a specific citation?

[Thanas]

Even if that is missing the fact still remains that the terrorist watch list is in no way comparable to any other international police list simply due to the fact that you can be placed upon it in secret with no way to know if you are on it.

[The Kernel]

I'm not sure if it is much comfort to know if you are on the list if you have no recourse to get off of it.

[Mr Bean]

I searched your link and cannot find a reference for a process on how to get off of an OFAC list. Can you provide a specific citation?

Specially Designated Nationals List additions are generally acts of Congress however you can appeal in writing to the OFAC itself. However this is a very traditionally governmental way. As in you need to send your legal team in person to the OFAC general offices to appeal your name, company or country being added to the list. There is a formalized process but it is by no means something you can do online or by telephone. The simple reason is that persons who are not already convicted of some crime rarely get added onto the SDN list. Company's get added and removed all the time but that's quite different and a subject for a business law expert which I am not.

[The Kernel]

Bean you know that's not true. Half the people on the OFAC list are involved in drug trafficking of some kind and most of them have never been convicted of anything at all because they are active cartel members.

[Thanas]

I'm not sure if it is much comfort to know if you are on the list if you have no recourse to get off of it.

That is being evasive, it is tons better knowing you are on the list and then being able to take some action in court instead of not knowing whether you are on the list of being secretly freedomized(tm).

[The Kernel]

That is being evasive, it is tons better knowing you are on the list and then being able to take some action in court instead of not knowing whether you are on the list of being secretly freedomized(tm).

How so? I thought the issue was one of transparency around the criteria for inclusion as well as due process, not public knowledge of the lists.

And I still haven't seen evidence that there is a path to getting off the OFAC list considering the criteria for inclusion is totally arbitrary and not something that is decided in a court. As I said just being a suspected cartel member will land you on those lists and I've never heard of any recourse or appeals process.

[Mr Bean]

As I mentioned before Kernel the SDN involves lots of acts of Congress and the OFAC does the best they can. Even when they don't they are charged with enforcing Congresses dictates. And yes the drug war makes things worse, but that's a standard refraim the drug war makes everything worse.

[The Kernel]

My point is still valid as the DEA has free reign to add anyone they like and shut them out of the international banking markets. I'm sure the State Department and Justice can do the same--just because it is slightly more transparent does not equal this being equivalent to the actions of a court.

[Thanas]

My point is still valid as the DEA has free reign to add anyone they like and shut them out of the international banking markets. I'm sure the State Department and Justice can do the same--just because it is slightly more transparent does not equal this being equivalent to the actions of a court.

Again, this is just you sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge the major problem with a secret list, as well as adding a strawman because nobody claimed it to being equivalent to a court.

Point is, you can theoretically challenge it. You can't challenge a secret list.

[The Kernel]

Again, this is just you sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge the major problem with a secret list,

And I will ask again because you STILL haven't answered the question of WHY this is the major problem. To me this is largely irrelevant since practically speaking the most important thing to me is getting myself off of a list if I am accidentally put on, I don't really give a shit who has access to it if it is "read only".

as well as adding a strawman because nobody claimed it to being equivalent to a court.

I said that because "due process" is supposed to mean something. Stop huffing glue for a second and recognize that there are many positions one can take on this issue and you might want to try and understand mine before you jump all over it.

Point is, you can theoretically challenge it. You can't challenge a secret list.

Yeah sure, everyone loves "theoretically" challenging something.

As a practical matter it is almost certainly easier to get yourself off of a no-fly list than an OFAC list. I've known people that have been able to do it without lawyers--typically this just involves a clarification with the TSA once they have been flagged and the issue does not repeat itself. OFAC however is much more nebulous...I've never even heard of anyone successfully challenging this list and even if they could they would still have to contend with the fact that all of these lists are linked via worldwide regulators so that any country can potentially flag you and you are locked out of everything. This is more than a hypothetical concern as the US may choose not to label a certain group as being terrorist affiliated (such as several nonviolent offshoots of the IRA) but if the British tag them then all of the US banks will freeze their assets anyway without any way to appeal the matter.