Obama explains Black Americans to America

[Simon_Jester]

So wait, you are purely objecting on Obama's speech because he did not suffer through a Ghetto upbringing?

It's part of critical race theory, where Obama doesn't get to be Black because he's got too much privilege. Thus, he has no right to explain Blacks to Whites - he's White, from a CRT perspective. In fact, he is the epitome of White now, being the President. It's an interesting field of thought, especially when it comes to attacks on prominent people rejected by their own ethnic origins for being 'other', but it's also quite flawed.

The fundamental problem is that it allows someone to reject and spit upon true words, honorably meant, by a man who knows perfectly well what he is saying... because the man is not 'authentic' enough.

"If he does not look just like me and act just like me, he can't speak for me!" is a very self-destructive rallying cry for someone who's complaint is that he is disenfranchised and powerless. How well will a powerless person do, if the only spokesmen they have are just as powerless as themselves? That's a chicken-and-egg paradox right there.

The only solution is to at least allow your spokesman to speak to outsiders in a language they will understand, to translate the misunderstood ideas and the not-understood context.

[Patroklos]

So wait, you are purely objecting on Obama's speech because he did not suffer through a Ghetto upbringing?

It's part of critical race theory, where Obama doesn't get to be Black because he's got too much privilege. Thus, he has no right to explain Blacks to Whites - he's White, from a CRT perspective. In fact, he is the epitome of White now, being the President. It's an interesting field of thought, especially when it comes to attacks on prominent people rejected by their own ethnic origins for being 'other', but it's also quite flawed.

Maybe Obama, Thomas and RGIII can form a support group?

[Saxtonite]

So wait, you are purely objecting on Obama's speech because he did not suffer through a Ghetto upbringing?

That was part of it.

That's hardly a problem limited to the black community.

Yeah. I dunno, it seems like in a way some of the classism is a left over remnant of antebellum white southern classism perhaps.

I suspect it was also a matter of throwing some black people under the bus in hopes the whites would spare a different group of black people.

The American South was more classist compared to the North, so that is part of it too.

Please tell that to the young wannabes in my area.

There is a saying regarding that. It is "niggas will be niggas"

But, uh seriously - the 'wannabees' were doing such before the rise of gangsta rap in the early/mid 1990s. Remember for example New York City had a nasty murder rate in the 1970s and 80s (when rap was more matter-of-fact/political and less braggadacio) and "that life" was arguably more prevalent then than it was during the 1990s with declining murder rates and whatnot. For all the statements about "Chicago's Deadly Streets" for example it is lower than say the 1990s, but I am disgressing.

All of which is irrelevant to the point of the speech he made, which was addressing RACE, not CLASS.

Ok.

It's part of critical race theory, where Obama doesn't get to be Black because he's got too much privilege. Thus, he has no right to explain Blacks to Whites - he's White, from a CRT perspective. In fact, he is the epitome of White now, being the President. It's an interesting field of thought, especially when it comes to attacks on prominent people rejected by their own ethnic origins for being 'other', but it's also quite flawed.

Hmm. I was not going from that angle actually, but that is a interesting way to phrase things.

EDIT: So apparently it was critical race theorists who originally came out with the 'desegregation was a cold war propaganda policy' argument. Well, made it academic as opposed to more...politicial (i.e. UN sessions and soviet propaganda etc)

[Havok]

You are a fucking idiot. Obama is over fucking qualified to speak on this matter because even though he is half white and fucking rich and has all the supposed privilege you claim in his up bringing, he is still "the black President".

Don't you fucking get it dumbass? No matter what he is always black first and anything else second. That is the level of racism that exists in our society, and as a half white, privileged rich person, he endures that every day no matter what because of how he looks.

Fucking christ.

[Saxtonite]

You are a fucking idiot.

You're a cocksucking dipshit

Don't you fucking get it dumbass?

*notes posts in the past*

Yes I do, fucktard

Fucking christ.

Choke on a 20 inch cock shithead.

EDIT:

No matter what he is always black first and anything else second. That is the level of racism that exists in our society, and as a half white, privileged rich person, he endures that every day no matter what because of how he looks.

P.S. his own speech ("until I became a senator") suggests otherwise. Eat shit bitch.

[Simon_Jester]

Saxtonite, are you prepared to respond to what I said?

The fundamental problem is that it [critical race theory] allows someone to reject and spit upon true words, honorably meant, by a man who knows perfectly well what he is saying... because the man is not 'authentic' enough.

"If he does not look just like me and act just like me, he can't speak for me!" is a very self-destructive rallying cry for someone who's complaint is that he is disenfranchised and powerless. How well will a powerless person do, if the only spokesmen they have are just as powerless as themselves? That's a chicken-and-egg paradox right there.

The only solution is to at least allow your spokesman to speak to outsiders in a language they will understand, to translate the misunderstood ideas and the not-understood context.

[Havok]

You are a fucking idiot.

You're a cocksucking dipshit

Don't you fucking get it dumbass?

*notes posts in the past*

Yes I do, fucktard

Fucking christ.

Choke on a 20 inch cock shithead.

EDIT:

Wow. Nice rebuttal.

No matter what he is always black first and anything else second. That is the level of racism that exists in our society, and as a half white, privileged rich person, he endures that every day no matter what because of how he looks.

P.S. his own speech ("until I became a senator") suggests otherwise. Eat shit bitch.

Oh sorry, I forgot racism disappears once you become a Senator. BUT OH WAIT... CONTEXT! He was talking specifically about being followed by authority figures and people like Zimmerman for the sole reason of being black. Are you saying that once you become a VERY public figure that cops will recognize you and not assume you are committing crimes? You should write detective novels.

P.S. the very fact that he felt that he could and should make this speech proves the fact that not only does he feel that white and black America sees him as black first before anything else, he recognizes it as an unspoken truth.

[Terralthra]

Yeah, it's kind of hilarious that Saxtonite had to edit in a response to the substantive points, indicating his initial post was simply exchanging insults.

[Saxtonite]

Saxtonite, are you prepared to respond to what I said?

The fundamental problem is that it [critical race theory] allows someone to reject and spit upon true words, honorably meant, by a man who knows perfectly well what he is saying... because the man is not 'authentic' enough.

"If he does not look just like me and act just like me, he can't speak for me!" is a very self-destructive rallying cry for someone who's complaint is that he is disenfranchised and powerless. How well will a powerless person do, if the only spokesmen they have are just as powerless as themselves? That's a chicken-and-egg paradox right there.

The only solution is to at least allow your spokesman to speak to outsiders in a language they will understand, to translate the misunderstood ideas and the not-understood context.

I said "ok" when Broomstick emphasized race over class. I may disagree with that sort of argument & other things, but that is his argument so I would leave it alone, even if I have a knee-jerk reaction to him making the explanation. Note I did not respond to a lot of her statements.

EDIT: I remember thinking/talking about cultural liaison officers since you mentioned that subject. I know the Chechens had such during their short-lived independence, but this is again disgression and derailing, so please excuse me.

Wow. Nice rebuttal.

It showed you I would not be intimidated by aggression.

P.S. the very fact that he felt that he could and should make this speech proves the fact that not only does he feel that white and black America sees him as black first before anything else, he recognizes it as an unspoken truth.

I posted "ok" in response to Broomstick's argument about 'race over class' if you did not see it above before launching a war of aggression.

Yeah, it's kind of hilarious that Saxtonite had to edit in a response to the substantive points, indicating his initial post was simply exchanging insults.

You gotta put a motherfucker in place when he comes at you, bro

[Ahriman238]

...

I'll freely admit I am not, and likely will never be, a fan of CRT. CRT holds as a central tenant that racism is too instiutionalized, too much a part of out culture and law to ever be curbed except for the most shallow and showy occasions.

And, as others have noted, it trivializes the victories of the Civil RIights Movement by implying that these advances weren't won through struggle and adversity, but casually granted by a white power structure afraid of a racial/Communist revolution.

I am not black. I interact with a lot of young black men and women through my work, and I am concerned how many of them feel that I, being white, can never understand them. I'm even more concerned how many feel that anyone who gets a college education or a good job isn't "really" black. If I ever said or implied that to be black is to be dirt-poor and ignorant, they would rightly be outraged. When one of their own says it, I only see nods. This really bothers me.

[Havok]

Wow. Nice rebuttal.

It showed you I would not be intimidated by aggression.

Uh, no. It showed me that if someone calls you names you fold and can't do anything but respond to the name calling. Says a lot about you comprehension skills. Which was already relevant.

P.S. the very fact that he felt that he could and should make this speech proves the fact that not only does he feel that white and black America sees him as black first before anything else, he recognizes it as an unspoken truth.

I posted "ok" in response to Broomstick's argument about 'race over class' if you did not see it above before launching a war of aggression.

Oh sorry I missed your one word response in your sea of idiocy. And honestly, when some invalidates most of your argument and you finally figure it out try more than a childish weasely "OK".

Yeah, it's kind of hilarious that Saxtonite had to edit in a response to the substantive points, indicating his initial post was simply exchanging insults.

You gotta put a motherfucker in place when he comes at you, bro

Is that what you think I or anyone else in this thread think happened?

[Saxtonite]

Uh, no. It showed me that if someone calls you names you fold

Oh do tell how I "fold" if I respond to your statements

and can't do anything but respond to the name calling. Says a lot about you comprehension skills. Which was already relevant.

Huh. A forum which allows flaming. And you bitch about someone responding to flamming. GG bro.

Oh sorry I missed your one word response in your sea of idiocy.

Good. Retract your statements.

And honestly, when some invalidates most of your argument and you finally figure it out try more than a childish weasely "OK".

herp-a-derp:

I said "ok" when Broomstick emphasized race over class. I may disagree with that sort of argument & other things, but that is his argument so I would leave it alone, even if I have a knee-jerk reaction to him making the explanation. Note I did not respond to a lot of her statements.

Is that what you think I or anyone else in this thread think happened?

The enemy was repelled. Hmmmmmmmm what happened? Hey, there's still time for more flaming if you're such a TOUGH MAN on the INTERNET.

So, how well is that microphallus of yours. Is your wife cheating on you again because of that?

...
And, as others have noted, it trivializes the victories of the Civil RIights Movement by implying that these advances weren't won through struggle and adversity, but casually granted by a white power structure afraid of a racial/Communist revolution.

A lot of the things were done though for that reason. There were prison uprisings like Attica, there were black panthers and other black nationalists walking into state capitols with guns, etc. There were black nationalists (Robert F Williams) based in Cuba telling black soldiers to shoot their white officers if an invasion of Cuba happened during the Missile Crisis. The Communists and nationalist revolutionaries -were- part of the civil rights movement. They weren't the overemphasized pacifist wing people only talk about currently, and they were the counterpoint and reaction to pacifist organization - the "leaving peaceful revolution impossible makes violent revolution inevitable" mentioned. If the powers that be screwed up worse, the US could have had its' own "Years of Lead" or "Dirty War".

I am not black. I interact with a lot of young black men and women through my work, and I am concerned how many of them feel that I, being white, can never understand them. I'm even more concerned how many feel that anyone who gets a college education or a good job isn't "really" black. If I ever said or implied that to be black is to be dirt-poor and ignorant, they would rightly be outraged. When one of their own says it, I only see nods. This really bothers me.

Yeah, I can understand that.

It is often better for foreign historians to study the histories of certain people because there would be no biases, I sometimes believe that.

[Havok]

Uh, no. It showed me that if someone calls you names you fold

Oh do tell how I "fold" if I respond to your statements

You couldn't even construct a response with anything but insults. You even recognized this as you actually had to edit it some actual content.

and can't do anything but respond to the name calling. Says a lot about you comprehension skills. Which was already relevant.

Huh. A forum which allows flaming. And you bitch about someone responding to flamming. GG bro.

Flaming with no content is just childish whining. Makes sense though.

Oh sorry I missed your one word response in your sea of idiocy.

Good. Retract your statements.

Why? They were all correct, I just missed you conceding that you were horribly wrong in this thread from the get go.

And honestly, when some invalidates most of your argument and you finally figure it out try more than a childish weasely "OK".

herp-a-derp:

I said "ok" when Broomstick emphasized race over class. I may disagree with that sort of argument & other things, but that is his argument so I would leave it alone, even if I have a knee-jerk reaction to him making the explanation. Note I did not respond to a lot of her statements.

Exactly, it was such a wealsly childish response that you had to explain yourself. Concession accepted bro.

Is that what you think I or anyone else in this thread think happened?

The enemy was repelled.

If by enemy you mean the people that can correctly interpret the meaning and context of the topic and the speech under discussion, well then I guess you win.

Hmmmmmmmm what happened? Hey, there's still time for more flaming if you're such a TOUGH MAN on the INTERNET.

So, how well is that microphallus of yours. Is your wife cheating on you again because of that?

Oh sweet irony, the laughs you provide us can never be repaid.

[FaxModem1]

Please tell that to the young wannabes in my area.

There is a saying regarding that. It is "niggas will be niggas"

But, uh seriously - the 'wannabees' were doing such before the rise of gangsta rap in the early/mid 1990s. Remember for example New York City had a nasty murder rate in the 1970s and 80s (when rap was more matter-of-fact/political and less braggadacio) and "that life" was arguably more prevalent then than it was during the 1990s with declining murder rates and whatnot. For all the statements about "Chicago's Deadly Streets" for example it is lower than say the 1990s, but I am disgressing.

On this topic, that's due to the population drop caused by the legalization of abortion a generation earlier in the 1970s, causing less people to be born into homes that don't want them, causing less people who will be drawn into crime in the 1990s.

[Saxtonite]

You couldn't even construct a response with anything but insults. You even recognized this as you actually had to edit it some actual content.

Nope.

Informal. to yield or give in: Dad folded and said we could go after all.

Responding to aggression.....is not that.

Flaming with no content is just childish whining. Makes sense though.

I didn't know telling someone to 'eat shit' is whining. What is 'whining' again?

1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion.

Nope

Why?

Oh sorry I missed your one word response

Herp-a-derp-a-THERE!

Exactly, it was such a wealsly childish response that you had to explain yourself. Concession accepted bro.

I explained to provide more information. Of course, it's not necessarily a 'concession' as I never accepted any requirement to go all out and grovel or provide ALL THE INFORMATIONS for you. Given I was discussing things with Broomstick. What is that, Brah?

If by enemy you mean the people that can correctly interpret the meaning and context of the topic and the speech under discussion, well then I guess you win.

"correctly intrepret"ing apparently from someone who learned English as a second language. I guess the ESL classes in Oakland aren't too good, eh?

Given you manage to fuck up two simple definitions, it appears that your command of the English language is pretty crappy yourself.........

Oh sweet irony, the laughs you provide us can never be repaid.

Did I hit a nerve.......

Given you went off-line for a period of time, I think so

On this topic, that's due to the population drop caused by the legalization of abortion a generation earlier in the 1970s, causing less people to be born into homes that don't want them, causing less people who will be drawn into crime in the 1990s.

I've heard of that theory too actually. It is an interesting intrepretation. Apparently the "decretei" generation had a higher Crime rate due to that decision made by Ceaucaseu.

[Havok]

Man you are fucking classic.

So Mr. Advocate Ebonics, is now adhering strictly to the definitions of words and there can be no exceptions or alternative usages given the fluent nature of language and the fact that that is precisely where Ebonics if born from. Fucking awesome.

I insult your intelligence given the fact that you could not figure out why the President was saying what he was saying, which you have already conceded* to, you then proceed to insult me based on, well the fact that I was correct I guess in pointing that out and your obvious butt hurt and being called names, then insult, lets see, my dick size, my relationship with my wife, specifically her fidelity, and now the possible fact that English could be my second language (borderline racist if I were reading between the lines and as I am Mexican, but hey, I no habla eeenglish boss so how could I do that?) by insinuating I don't know every specific definition all while completely not understanding what irony** is and calling me out as the INTERNET TOUGH GUY.

Oh and you are keeping track of when I am on and off-line now, but yeah, you hit a nerve.

*Definition of CONCESSION
1
a : the act or an instance of conceding (as by granting something as a right, accepting something as true, or acknowledging defeat)
b : the admitting of a point claimed in argument
2
: something conceded or granted:
a : acknowledgment, admission

** Obviously, every person who speaks English as a 1st language has a perfect understanding of it and all it's nuances.

Anyway, as I am not really contributing much to the conversation other than making fun of you and my point has been made and conceded to, I'm gonna bow out until there is another basic concept or line of reasoning you fail to recognize and comprehend. I'm sure you will note my log out time.

[Saxtonite]

So Mr. Advocate Ebonics, is now adhering strictly to the definitions of words and there can be no exceptions or alternative usages given the fluent nature of language and the fact that that is precisely where Ebonics if born from. Fucking awesome.

You're speaking white american english here, remember that ese?

I insult your intelligence given the fact that you could not figure out why the President was saying what he was saying,

Hmm. I am pretty sure I did. I noted an irony of him of all people making such an statement given his priviledge. If you could actually understand English, Hombre you would notice me talking about classism.

which you have already conceded* to,

Yay! Declare war on a surrendered country! TOUGH MAN in this MOTHERFUCKING FORUM!

you then proceed to insult me based on, well the fact that I was correct I guess in pointing that out

Nope. Given I went and mentioned you directly contradicted POTUS in his speech when you were vomiting whatever shit I had you eat. Yeah, I am sure the answer is "no".

and your obvious butt hurt and being called names, then insult, lets see, my dick size, my relationship with my wife, specifically her fidelity

Oh noes. Someone is RETAILATING!?! How could it be that someone is shooting back at me.

and now the possible fact that English could be my second language (borderline racist if I were reading between the lines and as I am Mexican, but hey, I no habla eeenglish boss so how could I do that?) by insinuating I don't know every specific definition

Good thing "Mexican" isn't a race*

Oh and you are keeping track of when I am on and off-line now, but yeah, you hit a nerve.

Hey. I notice tendencies. What about it.

Anyway, as I am not really contributing much to the conversation other than making fun of you and my point has been made and conceded to, I'm gonna bow out until there is another basic concept or line of reasoning you fail to recognize and comprehend. I'm sure you will note my log out time.

Given based off your argument I 'conceded' to Broomstick before your aggression, how about you mosy on and keep your wife from divorcing you.

*Inb4 you go weasel your ass out of this and go "DUH YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT" when you presumably read that long ass thread about me explaining the difference between a 'race', an 'ethnic group' and a 'nation'. But hey, even Bikers with litle dicks have to overcompensate and use their RAZZLE DAZZLE "obvious" bullshit in a thread.

This person can count to potato. Can you do too, Little Havokeff?



EDIT: And yay! A definition provided without any context. This seems ike another word for you to learn!

[Terralthra]

Wow, Saxtonite doubles down on ESL jokes and adds in ableism. "Brilliant."

[Saxtonite]

Wow, Saxtonite doubles down on ESL jokes and adds in ableism. "Brilliant."

Havok uses the very same insults I use ("lack of comprehension") ("lack of intelligence") yet I am the "bad guy" here?

[Terralthra]

Yep.

[Havok]

So Mr. Advocate Ebonics, is now adhering strictly to the definitions of words and there can be no exceptions or alternative usages given the fluent nature of language and the fact that that is precisely where Ebonics if born from. Fucking awesome.

You're speaking white american english here, remember that ese?

Wow. Really?
P.S. It's a Canadian site dick head.

I insult your intelligence given the fact that you could not figure out why the President was saying what he was saying,

Hmm. I am pretty sure I did. I noted an irony of him of all people making such an statement given his priviledge. If you could actually understand English, Hombre you would notice me talking about classism.

Double wow.
Oh I saw you talking about classism. The point others and I was making is that he wasn't.
What I particularly love though is that even now you stick to your (not so) thinly veiled insinuations that because he is somehow privileged, he can't speak as a black man.

which you have already conceded* to,

Yay! Declare war on a surrendered country! TOUGH MAN in this MOTHERFUCKING FORUM!

Oh I thought you didn't concede the point though?

you then proceed to insult me based on, well the fact that I was correct I guess in pointing that out

Nope. Given I went and mentioned you directly contradicted POTUS in his speech when you were vomiting whatever shit I had you eat. Yeah, I am sure the answer is "no

And then I pointed out how you COMPLETELY took that quote out of context, which you have ignored since, so pretty sure the answer is you are dishonest shit debater, but let me go check with the rest of the Hombres in my ESL class to make sure I am correct.

and your obvious butt hurt and being called names, then insult, lets see, my dick size, my relationship with my wife, specifically her fidelity

Oh noes. Someone is RETAILATING!?! How could it be that someone is shooting back at me.

I call you a dumbass based on your poor interpenetration of the speech, you insult physical attributes, marital relationships and have now graduated to racial insults. Congratulations on proving my point of earlier calling you a childish whiner. And the fact that you still are missing the point on this one.

and now the possible fact that English could be my second language (borderline racist if I were reading between the lines and as I am Mexican, but hey, I no habla eeenglish boss so how could I do that?) by insinuating I don't know every specific definition

Good thing "Mexican" isn't a race*

No shit Sherlock, but here where we're "speaking white american english", non idiots know that I mean I am of Spanish and native South American descent and I don't have to produce fucking papers or a family tree (or maybe a bag of oranges in your mind) to get my point across right ese? Because, y'know, we all talk like that.

Oh and you are keeping track of when I am on and off-line now, but yeah, you hit a nerve.

Hey. I notice tendencies. What about it.

Really? Why don't you notice that you are an idiot yet then? Guess you aren't too good at it.

Anyway, as I am not really contributing much to the conversation other than making fun of you and my point has been made and conceded to, I'm gonna bow out until there is another basic concept or line of reasoning you fail to recognize and comprehend. I'm sure you will note my log out time.

Given based off your argument I 'conceded' to Broomstick before your aggression, how about you mosy on and keep your wife from divorcing you.

Well see, I was gonna do that but...

*Inb4 you go weasel your ass out of this and go "DUH YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT" when you presumably read that long ass thread about me explaining the difference between a 'race', an 'ethnic group' and a 'nation'. But hey, even Bikers with litle dicks have to overcompensate and use their RAZZLE DAZZLE "obvious" bullshit in a thread.

Oh right, I have to weasel out of that because I couldn't possibly know that because they didn't teach that in my ESL class right?

This person can count to potato. Can you do too, Little Havokeff?

Wow, you are quite the stalkerish type aren't you I congratulate you on your internet detective skills.

EDIT: And yay! A definition provided without any context. This seems ike another word for you to learn!

"You conceded"
"No I didn't"
*definition of concession*
"NO CONTEXT!!"

P.S. You're response earlier in your own post pretty much shows you know the exact context of the definition I posted and that pretty much just makes you a straight up liar.

[Metahive]

Saxtonite, for someone who purportedly sees racism as something so evil it justifies ethnic cleansing of millions of people (just read his fantasies about Neo Afrika on the other thread AKA the CSA with a 80%+ black majority), you engage in it quite casually with this unnecessary race-baiting here. Also with you defending Ebonics as a legitimate language of its own there's no justification for you to make fun of the English of others.
I guess it's no wonder you worship Robert Mugabe as a hero.

[Thanas]

It showed you I would not be intimidated by aggression.

No, it showed you were a freaking idiot who would not respond to a point and hurl shit at the fan instead.

You gotta put a motherfucker in place when he comes at you, bro

Because you are so ghetto, bro.

________________________

Now, here is my official decree: This shit flinging between Saxtonite and others stops right now before it stinks this thread up any further. Anybody, no matter if it is Havok, Saxtonite, Metahive etc. better shut up and get back to the point.

[Thanas]

Now, back to the discussion.

So wait, you are purely objecting on Obama's speech because he did not suffer through a Ghetto upbringing?

That was part of it.

That strikes me as wrong because every disenfranchised class in history needed somebody to speak up for them even if they did not suffer through the same problems to the same degree. The abolition of slavery comes to mind. Without a Wilberforce it never would have succeded, yet Wilberforce was anything but black or non-privileged. And yet nobody can deny his importance.

[Saxtonite]

Now, here is my official decree: This shit flinging between Saxtonite and others stops right now before it stinks this thread up any further. Anybody, no matter if it is Havok, Saxtonite, Metahive etc. better shut up and get back to the point.

*ceases fire*

That strikes me as wrong because every disenfranchised class in history needed somebody to speak up for them even if they did not suffer through the same problems to the same degree. The abolition of slavery comes to mind. Without a Wilberforce it never would have succeded, yet Wilberforce was anything but black or non-privileged. And yet nobody can deny his importance.

It can be very wrong, yes but there are I guess historical reasons for such behavior. I guess part of it is a fear of some being used as a political pawn for purposes which were against their interests. There were such writers who did express a fear of their people being used as a pawn and had issues with those who arguably felt that they were manipulating 'their' people for such a purpose.

And just because the person in question which represents them comes from an ethnic minority themselves does not mean they would not identify with the larger group in question. Again these are historical facts, and that was part of my, I guess "knee-jerk" response.