A strange dose of masculinism(?) ideals

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

What I do not appreciate are anti-heroes who remain villainous for the sake of unspoken ideological statements by their authors.

Aren't all stories more or less influenced by the author's ideology - and prejudices??

To say the least, preaching to your audience is almost universally accepted by writer's to be a sign of unskilled, amateurish writing. A skilled writer will put aside his or her own preconceptions in favor of telling the story. As I'm sure you can tell, my values are decidedly conservative for the most part. However, I would consider it bad form to try to push my values through my fiction, especially just to follow a trend, as I'm sure a lot of these hacks' excuses would run.

But let me pose this question to you; why is it that fewer and fewer stories with conservative or traditional morals are seen lately? It isn't all just the writers, my friend. Studio executives are to blame, as well.

[Peregrin Toker]

But let me pose this question to you; why is it that fewer and fewer stories with conservative or traditional morals are seen lately? It isn't all just the writers, my friend. Studio executives are to blame, as well.

Maybe conservative ideology is overall becoming less popular among the sort of people who write.

BTW, I find it kind of strange that conservatives always complain about movies being too left-winged, while certain left-winged groups describe every modern movie short of The Matrix as "Bourgeoisie propaganda." Whom are we to believe??

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

But let me pose this question to you; why is it that fewer and fewer stories with conservative or traditional morals are seen lately? It isn't all just the writers, my friend. Studio executives are to blame, as well.

Maybe conservative ideology is overall becoming less popular among the sort of people who write.

BTW, I find it kind of strange that conservatives always complain about movies being too left-winged, while certain left-winged groups describe every modern movie short of The Matrix as "Bourgeoisie propaganda." Whom are we to believe??

Hmm. Conservatives accuse the media of a liberal bias, while liberals use a Marxist epithet to describe anything in the media that isn't liberal, and after decades of hearing the spin, most people buy into it. What does that tell you?

And you're right -- Conservatism isn't popular. It isn't trendy, or chic. It isn't the preferred disposition of the Intelligentzia.

The idea that you should mind your own business and let other people mind theirs just isn't as much fun as the idea that people are stupid cattle who should exist solely for their own gratification while some centralized authority presides over their lives. That idea is more fun for the everyday Joe, "Hey, the government and the media say I'm a stupid, irresponsible fuck! It must be okay! Whee!" And it's more fun for the people set up to take their place as that centralized authority, because now that we've created all these stupid, irresponsible fuckers, they need somebody to watch over them, and gee, isn't it great that we just happened to be ready for it?

Sorry, rant terminated.

[Peregrin Toker]

And you're right -- Conservatism isn't popular. It isn't trendy, or chic. It isn't the preferred disposition of the Intelligentzia.

Isn't this because intellectuals through history usually opposed conservatives at every oppurtunity??

(And they often had reasons to do so)

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

And you're right -- Conservatism isn't popular. It isn't trendy, or chic. It isn't the preferred disposition of the Intelligentzia.

Isn't this because intellectuals through history usually opposed conservatives at every oppurtunity??

(And they often had reasons to do so)

That strikes me as circular reasoning, Simon. "Conservatism isn't popular because the intellectual elite oppose conversatism, because conservatism isn't popular." Not that I'm suggesting you become a conspiracy theorist, but it might occur to you to wonder why those who fancy themselves the intellectual "elite" would oppose a belief system based on personal responsibility, rather than living under decree of the elite. Personally, the motive seems fairly obvious to me, but I encourage you to come to your own conclusions.

[Peregrin Toker]

Not that I'm suggesting you become a conspiracy theorist, but it might occur to you to wonder why those who fancy themselves the intellectual "elite" would oppose a belief system based on personal responsibility, rather than living under decree of the elite.

Belief system based upon personal responsibility.... but wouldn't that be Libertarianism rather than liberalism or conservatism??

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Not that I'm suggesting you become a conspiracy theorist, but it might occur to you to wonder why those who fancy themselves the intellectual "elite" would oppose a belief system based on personal responsibility, rather than living under decree of the elite.

Belief system based upon personal responsibility.... but wouldn't that be Libertarianism rather than liberalism or conservatism??

Hey, Simon, you got me on that one, sort of. Dictionary.com defines "Conservatism with 4 entries, as follow:

The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order.
A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.
Conservatism The principles and policies of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or of the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Caution or moderation, as in behavior or outlook

My application of the term focused more on that 4th definition. Let's see what we get with Libertarianism; that might dovetail with Definition 4:

One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
One who believes in free will.

Indeed it does, although not in an overt, direct way. Thanks for the pointer. I think you can see that Liberalism opposes Libertarianism on that score as well. Or, at least, that's my assessment.

[Steven Snyder]

There is a massive double-standard on the way society treats men and women, especially in the media. This may not have a huge impact on us adults, but consider what it is doing to young boys who are having their impressions of manhood shaped by what they see.

Start watching commercials for one thing, notice how they portray men as oafish, stupid, fat, lazy, and crude. Women on the otherhand are usually portrayed as smart, attractive, socially graceful, and right about everything.

The most offensive I have seen so far is the Honda commericial where a woman is portrayed as a zoologist studying the behavior of man. Of course the men are dancing around the car and acting like primates.
Why does this commericial work, because we have been so bullshitted by society as to think that men actually behave like chimps, it is now okay to make a direct comparison between men and primates.
Now for an experiment, what would happen if you reversed the commercial and showed a male zoologist watching women behaving like primates while dancing around a car, or a diamond ring. What do you think public reaction would be?

How often in a movie does a woman get away with something because a man is extraordinarily stupid and falls for her 'wiles' like a dog?

Has anyone gotten a chain letter at work saying someting like "Why (something) is better than men"? It happens all the time and I have seen several come my way, I am sure some of you have seen it too. No one complains, and everyone thinks that it is just good fun.
Now I dare you, I doubledare you to go through that document and twist it around to where you are now making fun of women and then forward it around the company. Notice how it has changed from clean fun to the document sitting on your boss's desk at your exit interview.

Gentlemen I have walked in on a group of ladies that were busying themselves telling sexist jokes. When they noticed I was in the area they closed the door to the room I was in and continued with their jokes...what do you think would have happened if the guys in the office did this to the women?

Want further proof??? Head to the hallmark section of your local store and look through the cards, find all the ones that denigrate men, there will be a lot. Now look through and find ones that denigrate women...keep a count.

How about this one from American Greeting Cards:
(Front of Card)
Men are always whining about how we are suffocating them
(Inside of Card)
Personally, I think if you can hear them whining, you're not pressing hard enough on the pillow.

How about this from Walter Williams
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walt ... 0104.shtml

Young boys aren't spared from the feminist attack. At a Boston area elementary school, nobody objected when girls wore shirts emblazoned with "Girls Rule" or when they taunted boys with a chant that goes, "Boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider; girls go to college to get more knowledge." But when boys donned shirts emblazoned with "Boys Are Good," there was protest. One of the teachers protesting sported a button saying, "So many men, so little intelligence."

Now put on your critical thinking hats and tell me what would happen if I went to work tommorrow (at a school mind you) with a button that said "So many women, so little intelligence." Would someone care to place a wager on exactly how long I had my job?

But the real problem isn't me, I can handle this sort of crap without flinching. The problem is that my son is going to be raised in a world where he is told by the media, by the greeting card company, and even by the schools that he is oafish, stupid, fat, lazy, crude, and generally exists at the whim of women.

How do you think this is going to shape his view of himself, and how do you think he is going to view women?

Today we have boys (BOYS!!!) in school who are dying their hair, wearing makeup, putting on earrings, and looking more and more feminine each year. Why do you think that they are trying to do this? Could it be that in their minds the more perfect sex is female and they are trying to appear more feminine in order to become more perfect?

[Peregrin Toker]

The most offensive I have seen so far is the Honda commericial where a woman is portrayed as a zoologist studying the behavior of man. Of course the men are dancing around the car and acting like primates.
Why does this commericial work, because we have been so bullshitted by society as to think that men actually behave like chimps, it is now okay to make a direct comparison between men and primates.

That is not a new phenomenon, Steve.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again, but already it was impossible to say which was which." - Animal Farm by George Orwell.

Today we have boys (BOYS!!!) in school who are dying their hair, wearing makeup, putting on earrings, and looking more and more feminine each year. Why do you think that they are trying to do this?

Erm.... because they are Goths?

[Peregrin Toker]

Start watching commercials for one thing, notice how they portray men as oafish, stupid, fat, lazy, and crude. Women on the otherhand are usually portrayed as smart, attractive, socially graceful, and right about everything.

Quite strange - I hear both genders complaining that they are portrayed in a negative way. Males usually complain about being portrayed as idiotic, while women complain about being portrayed as sex objects. How can this be??? If the media portrayed women as perfect, why would feminists have a reason to complain about media portrayals of women??

[Marcus]

In part, the current mockery of the masculine gender is because, at the end of the day, we do still hold a greater share of the power pie. There are inequities and overreactions that have swung the pendulum beyond neutral into the favour of the female, but for the moment they are isolated.

Another problem is the whole running 'vicitim group' mentality... sometimes I think Amercia consists of nothing but various oppressed, victimized groups that have been put down by the White Male Heterosexual Protestant of European Descent. As the one 'non-victim' in the group, we are seen as the valid target for the ire, outrage, etc of the poor, oppressed Victim Groups.

Im not sure how far the trend will continue... but I pity my male grandchildren. It sometimes seems that none will be satisfied until the aformentioned white male is the economic, social, and legal inferior in all ways to those poor, oppressed Victim Groups.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Start watching commercials for one thing, notice how they portray men as oafish, stupid, fat, lazy, and crude. Women on the otherhand are usually portrayed as smart, attractive, socially graceful, and right about everything.

Quite strange - I hear both genders complaining that they are portrayed in a negative way. Males usually complain about being portrayed as idiotic, while women complain about being portrayed as sex objects. How can this be??? If the media portrayed women as perfect, why would feminists have a reason to complain about media portrayals of women??

Because that is the modus operandi of the feminist political machine. Complaining loudly and to anyone who will listen has always worked for achieving ideological feminist ends in the past, and the political associations that continue it today do so because they have no reason to expect it to fail any time soon.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

In part, the current mockery of the masculine gender is because, at the end of the day, we do still hold a greater share of the power pie. There are inequities and overreactions that have swung the pendulum beyond neutral into the favour of the female, but for the moment they are isolated.

I think if you check the relevant legal, employment and social sanctions against men in this country, you will come to a most unsettling awakening regarding this assumption.

Another problem is the whole running 'vicitim group' mentality... sometimes I think Amercia consists of nothing but various oppressed, victimized groups that have been put down by the White Male Heterosexual Protestant of European Descent. As the one 'non-victim' in the group, we are seen as the valid target for the ire, outrage, etc of the poor, oppressed Victim Groups.

A neat summarization of the whole MO that generated the acceptance of misandry -- "it's okay to hate men, because men are the oppressors." Whether the justification for the bigotry is still true or not doesn't matter, apparently. I suppose it's easy enough to see how getting away with murdering someone in this country would be easily enough accomplished -- provided you spend a few decades blaming them for something first.

Im not sure how far the trend will continue... but I pity my male grandchildren. It sometimes seems that none will be satisfied until the aformentioned white male is the economic, social, and legal inferior in all ways to those poor, oppressed Victim Groups.

Or until male children are generally so indoctrinated to cower in reverent awe and fear of women that women finally achieve the ultimate goal of ideological feminism -- matriarchy. The fact that most feminism-inspired literature has engaged in revisionism to the effect that matriarchies have existed in the past (a claim contradicted by anthropology and archaeology) is another subject.

[Peregrin Toker]

Start watching commercials for one thing, notice how they portray men as oafish, stupid, fat, lazy, and crude. Women on the otherhand are usually portrayed as smart, attractive, socially graceful, and right about everything.

Quite strange - I hear both genders complaining that they are portrayed in a negative way. Males usually complain about being portrayed as idiotic, while women complain about being portrayed as sex objects. How can this be??? If the media portrayed women as perfect, why would feminists have a reason to complain about media portrayals of women??

Because that is the modus operandi of the feminist political machine. Complaining loudly and to anyone who will listen has always worked for achieving ideological feminist ends in the past, and the political associations that continue it today do so because they have no reason to expect it to fail any time soon.

OK, but what about the quote from "Animal Farm" I presented?? (the "from pig to man and man to pig" quote) What would you make of that?? Surely something cannot be the product of feminism if it's written by George Orwell, of all people.

[Peregrin Toker]

The fact that most feminism-inspired literature has engaged in revisionism to the effect that matriarchies have existed in the past (a claim contradicted by anthropology and archaeology) is another subject.

You're referring to Marija Gimbutas' habit of exaggerating evidence that women had a high status in neolithic Europe, aren't you??

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Quite strange - I hear both genders complaining that they are portrayed in a negative way. Males usually complain about being portrayed as idiotic, while women complain about being portrayed as sex objects. How can this be??? If the media portrayed women as perfect, why would feminists have a reason to complain about media portrayals of women??

Because that is the modus operandi of the feminist political machine. Complaining loudly and to anyone who will listen has always worked for achieving ideological feminist ends in the past, and the political associations that continue it today do so because they have no reason to expect it to fail any time soon.

OK, but what about the quote from "Animal Farm" I presented?? (the "from pig to man and man to pig" quote) What would you make of that?? Surely something cannot be the product of feminism if it's written by George Orwell, of all people.

Orwell's Animal Farm basically seems to be what the movie Babe would have been if they'd thrown in a good ole Marxist revolution on the part of the animals. Orwell was not engaging in misandry (hatred of the male gender) as much as he was promoting a weird sort of anthropomorphized "class war."

[Peregrin Toker]

Because that is the modus operandi of the feminist political machine. Complaining loudly and to anyone who will listen has always worked for achieving ideological feminist ends in the past, and the political associations that continue it today do so because they have no reason to expect it to fail any time soon.

OK, but what about the quote from "Animal Farm" I presented?? (the "from pig to man and man to pig" quote) What would you make of that?? Surely something cannot be the product of feminism if it's written by George Orwell, of all people.

Orwell's Animal Farm basically seems to be what the movie Babe would have been if they'd thrown in a good ole Marxist revolution on the part of the animals. Orwell was not engaging in misandry (hatred of the male gender) as much as he was promoting a weird sort of anthropomorphized "class war."

Actually, Animal Farm was a satire, a parody of the Russian Revolution. "Some animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, so I was mostly right -- I should have known that Orwell wasn't being serious. There is, though, an interesting link between ideological feminism and Marxism. Yes, I'm sure you're laughing your ass off. Here's a quote to back that statement:

From Anthology of Western Marxism, Page 297,

"We should ask the feminist questions, but try to come up with some Marxist answers."

There are many other quotes, to be found primarily in two documents: Sisterhood Is Power by Robin Morgan (former Editor-In-Chief, Ms. Magazine); and The SCUM Manifesto by Valerie Solanas (A document which most would agree nominates Ms. Solanas as womens' answer to Charles Manson.)

[Peregrin Toker]

Okay, so I was mostly right -- I should have known that Orwell wasn't being serious. There is, though, an interesting link between ideological feminism and Marxism. Yes, I'm sure you're laughing your ass off.

It's no surprise for me, since the neo-marxist movement in 1960s europe actually had strong connections to the feminist movement. BTW, what do you mean with "ideological feminism??" Are you implying that feminism in an ideology in itself, or the opposite??

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

By "ideological feminism" I refer to what most people think of simply as feminist political activism. There are two types of feminism I'm aware of: Egalitarian Feminism, which actually champions the rights of both genders because it seeks true equality; and Ideological Feminism, which propagates a massive False Dilemma (e.g. Man are oppressors, and only when women hold the majority of power will they no longer be oppressed). Misandry of the type we started this thread discussing is a major theme (sometimes very subtly, sometimes quite blatantly) of Ideological Feminism. It serves two purposes for this cause -- it desensitizes those exposed to it, even if they're not affected by it (Oh, stop complaining, it happens all the time!) and it does grave psychological damage to its victims who are in their formative years (Actually, that statement is a prediction rather than an observation.)

The term Feminazi, incidentally, was coined not as an epithet to be hurled at all feminists; it is an epithet for misandrists, describing a feminist who views the male gender with roughly the same outlook as that which the Nazis reserved for non-Aryans.

[Queeb Salaron]

heh. Something funny I just thought of. Women have seen themselves as sexually liberated since the original Feminists and their lectures on birth-control. Generally speaking, women have begun to see their bodies as their own, not the vessel for male's satisfaction. But there are statistics somewhere (I'll get 'em later and post 'em) that say that women are having more sex than they ever have been before. So women in general see sex as something that they do for their own gratification first (and do it frequently), and as a function of a relationship second. (This may be flawed logic, but let it go for now.) Considering women's opinions of men as per the case of the button on the school protestor, it is plain to see how an argument could go like this:

Woman: You're a fucking idiot.
Man: Well you're fucking an idiot.

Hm... I can't tell which is worse: To waste your relatively new-found sexual liberation on a male species who only recognizes the currency of it and not the historical relevance, or to not have the intelligence to recognize anything but the currency.

[darthdavid]

We should take all the women hating fundies and all the man hating feminazis and put them in a large arena armed with chain saws. The winning group would be promptly executed by firing squad and any survivors in the arena would be converted to normal thinking and if their converesion failed they'd be executed too.

[Steven Snyder]

Start watching commercials for one thing, notice how they portray men as oafish, stupid, fat, lazy, and crude. Women on the otherhand are usually portrayed as smart, attractive, socially graceful, and right about everything.

Quite strange - I hear both genders complaining that they are portrayed in a negative way. Males usually complain about being portrayed as idiotic, while women complain about being portrayed as sex objects. How can this be??? If the media portrayed women as perfect, why would feminists have a reason to complain about media portrayals of women??

Because there are of course exceptions, I see far more male bashing in the media than woman bashing.