The newest "Destroyer" of the JMSDF

[Kane Starkiller]

Am I really seeing what I am seeing here (initiate a possible invasion of disputed islands), or it is a bad choice of words on your part?

Well come on. You really think Japan leadership doesn't secretly entertain the idea of a possible preemptive invasion of a disputed island? That it hasn't crossed their mind when they were building this thing?

Japan's sizeable AEGIS-equipped fleet full of modern missile destroyers can sink everyone and his dog around - with the exception of PLAN - and with a very high probability. Pirates are not an issue for Japan with such a massive fleet. I think saying Japan "needs" something it already has is being deliberately dishonest.

What about the Philippines and Indonesia? They are very reliant on naval trade. Do they need a massive navy? Would you be advocating for a massive naval build-up for these nations? If not, why?

We don't really need anything but a shelter and a nearby source of water and food. But as far as maintaining the current size and structure of their economy goes having a capability to safeguard their trade links against current and projected rise of Chinese and other navies they feel they need to expand their own.
I believe that Phillipines is actually intensifying a military relationship with Japan although Phillipines economy can hardly support a significant naval buildup.

[K. A. Pital]

Well come on. You really think Japan leadership doesn't secretly entertain the idea of a possible preemptive invasion of a disputed island? That it hasn't crossed their mind when they were building this thing?

Of course I do - Japan's leaders openly speak about using Nazi Germany tactics to change their peaceful constitution, after all, which is exactly the cause of my concern. Let me remind you just for a second that Japan never even apologized for what they did.

We don't really need anything but a shelter and a nearby source of water and food. But as far as maintaining the current size and structure of their economy goes having a capability to safeguard their trade links against current and projected rise of Chinese and other navies they feel they need to expand their own. I believe that Phillipines is actually intensifying a military relationship with Japan although Phillipines economy can hardly support a significant naval buildup.

Um... China is a primary trade partner who benefits from the safety of maritime transit just about as much as Japan or Korea. China is Japan's largest trade partner, and it has been so for years.

[Kane Starkiller]

Of course I do - Japan's leaders openly speak about using Nazi Germany tactics to change their peaceful constitution, after all, which is exactly the cause of my concern. Let me remind you just for a second that Japan never even apologized for what they did.

Oh there is certainly cause for concern. The expanding Chinese navy fueled by growing economy combined with expanding Japanese navy fueled by leaving the US imposed constitution will lead to more friction. Even if the Japan did apologize it wouldn't really change the reality of these two powers in close proximity to each other.
Apology or not countries like South Korea, Philippines and Vietnam currently consider China to be a greater threat than Japan and we see a growing military alliance between those countries.

Um... China is a primary trade partner who benefits from the safety of maritime transit just about as much as Japan or Korea. China is Japan's largest trade partner, and it has been so for years.

Sure but the fear in Japan is obviously that China will disrupt Japan's trade in case of a conflict or block Japan from accessing oil and gas fields around disputed islands.

[Simon_Jester]

For the last 50 years it relied on US naval dominance to achieve that. If it can't rely on US then it needs to have a navy of its own to protect the sealines.

Japan's sizeable AEGIS-equipped fleet full of modern missile destroyers can sink everyone and his dog around - with the exception of PLAN - and with a very high probability. Pirates are not an issue for Japan with such a massive fleet. I think saying Japan "needs" something it already has is being deliberately dishonest.

What about the Philippines and Indonesia? They are very reliant on naval trade. Do they need a massive navy? Would you be advocating for a massive naval build-up for these nations? If not, why?

Here's how I see the situation.

At the moment, the world's oceans are mostly peaceful. There are a few very localized areas with serious piracy problems. But with the exception of Somalia and maybe one or two areas in East Asia, they're not an actual threat to international shipping, which mostly sails in giant container ships.

The interesting question is, what happens if nations begin actively interfering with global trade for their own purposes again? Obvious examples include Egypt and/or Israel meddling with the Suez Canal (it happened before), Iran deciding to close off access to the Persian Gulf, or any of a number of nations in Asia proper deciding to clamp down on shipping through various waterways there, the most prominent being the Straits of Malacca. Conflicts in the Americas might further interfere with the Panama Canal too, although this is relatively unlikely for the foreseeable future, and probably not especially important to Japan.

This used to be quite normal up until World War Two; nations like Britain and Germany did everything in their power to cut off seaborne trade to wartime enemies. As recently as 1975, the Suez Canal was cut off due to conflicts between Egypt and Israel.

Things like this could present Japan (and many other seafaring nations) with serious problems, as a result of actions taken by a foreign country ten thousand kilometers away or more. Thus, they might want to ask: "assuming that the US Navy no longer patrols the world's sealanes, what would we need to do to ensure that no enemy could cut off our long distance trade?" Since the US aggressively and intrusively forces freedom of navigation on nations today, it's not a problem for them now, but that might change.

The problem is that if you are dependent on long range sea trade, you are unable to ignore things which happen far from your borders. This makes it very difficult to be fully free of 'imperialist' impulses to meddle in the affairs of those countries, insofar as they impact international shipping.

[Pelranius]

Apology or not countries like South Korea, Philippines and Vietnam currently consider China to be a greater threat than Japan and we see a growing military alliance between those countries.

I take it that you haven't been following Korean politics very much?

[hongi]

Haven't you heard? Americans are afraid of China, hence everyone else must be afraid of China.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Haven't you heard? Americans are afraid of China, hence everyone else must be afraid of China.

There are plenty of people further north of you who do not like China and aren't Americans.

[Metahive]

The last time Japan claimed to protect Korean independence from China they afterwards decided to just swallow Korea up, try to obliterate the distinct korean identity and turn Koreans into a slave race for the japanese Herrenmenschen. The centuries of chinese domination were nothing when compared to a mere 30 years of japanese occupation. Yeah, sorry, but Korea is never going to accept a rearmed Japan, especially when they have so far only offered half-assed apologies for their atrocities while at the same time being busy to pour salt into the wounds by, among other things, romanticizing the occupation and worshiping war criminals. O yeah, and they still treat Japanese who descended from Koreans like second-class citizens.
Korea also has its own territorial disputes with Japan.

Everyone who thinks that China's a bigger bogeyman to East and Southeast-Asia than a rearmed Japan is gravely mistaken. The Chinese never committed atrocities as vile as the Japanese when they dominated the area and the memory of that is still fresh.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Everyone who thinks that China's a bigger bogeyman to East and Southeast-Asia than a rearmed Japan is gravely mistaken. The Chinese never committed atrocities as vile as the Japanese when they dominated the area and the memory of that is still fresh.

So where would the Chinese Cultural revolution figure then? How about the Gulags that China continues to operate?

[Metahive]

How relevant are atrocities the Chinese commit against themselves to whether or its neighbors should fear them? The Nazis and the Imperial Japanese never mistreated their own populace to the extent they mistreated the people they conquered, remember? Your metric is flawed.

[K. A. Pital]

So where would the Chinese Cultural revolution figure then?

Compared to what, Japanese occupation? Cultural Revolution was an internal Chinese matter. China did not occupy Korea or Vietnam, as far as I know. Besides, Metahive is clearly referencing the pre-Japanese invasion period when China had a huge sway over Korea.

How about the Gulags that China continues to operate?

Does China throw Koreans into their prisons, or is that an internal Chinese matter? Needless to remind you that Japan discriminated against various foreigners and even their own people from a lower caste for centuries. In any case Japan is, making some corrections for its wealth level, an offender quite similar to China - it has a conviction rate of 99%. Japan's prison system has been linked to numerous abuses, deaths of prisoners and the like - that in a nation where wealth is equalling a First World country and representative-democratic procedures do not seem to be compromised according to the West. Conviction rate for both countries (in fact, for almost all Asian countries) is exceptionally high.

Japan runs its own penal labour system to keep their industries competitive:
http://www.stripes.com/news/ex-marine-d ... rk-1.21905

Almost half of Japan's prisoners (and in previous years, more than half) were involved in the penal labour system.

Pot calling kettle black?

[ray245]

It's not the first time Fingolfin_Noldor let's his prejudice of China cloud his views.

[mr friendly guy]

How relevant are atrocities the Chinese commit against themselves to whether or its neighbors should fear them? The Nazis and the Imperial Japanese never mistreated their own populace to the extent they mistreated the people they conquered, remember? Your metric is flawed.

This meme seems to be used a lot doesn't it? What's next? A person who tries to self harm themselves constantly is a bigger threat than a serial killer who doesn't self harm?

Edit - this type of thinking seems to be based on a nice sounding premise which doesn't jive with reality. That is, if you treat your own citizens badly, you will treat citizens of other nations even worse. If you are going to argue that, ultimately you must put forward empirical evidence for that rather than assume its a god damn universal rule. But then some right wingers (and left wingers for that matter as well) seem detach from reality and don't seem to understand concept of empiricism. Remember, when reality doesn't match your theory, its reality that's wrong.

[fgalkin]

Human Rights Watch report saying the only place in the world they saw conditions similar to the Japanese penal system was the Soviet Union and Communist Poland. This was in 1995, there has been no change in the system since that time.

Just saying.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's not the first time Fingolfin_Noldor let's his prejudice of China cloud his views.

Actually, to be more correct, I am a misanthrope, which means I hate humanity as a whole. It's just that the Chinese race happens to be one of the top few races I particularly despise for what they stand for, if they stand for anything at all.

This meme seems to be used a lot doesn't it? What's next? A person who tries to self harm themselves constantly is a bigger threat than a serial killer who doesn't self harm?

Edit - this type of thinking seems to be based on a nice sounding premise which doesn't jive with reality. That is, if you treat your own citizens badly, you will treat citizens of other nations even worse. If you are going to argue that, ultimately you must put forward empirical evidence for that rather than assume its a god damn universal rule. But then some right wingers (and left wingers for that matter as well) seem detach from reality and don't seem to understand concept of empiricism. Remember, when reality doesn't match your theory, its reality that's wrong.

My bloody point, obviously buried with all the vitriol above, is that if you are going to go side one side against the other, you ought to at least know that the side you are siding with isn't exactly even remotely saintly, if at all. That Japan is no fucking saint is obvious as hell what with their misogyny vis a vis women, their nationalism and whatever not. The Koreans aren't much better because the nationalism in some quarters is as bad as the Japanese. The only reason why they never ever reached the level of the Japanese, is because they were, historically speaking, something of a "Poland" between China and Japan and were devastated by 2 wars fought on their soil and they were a tribute state of the Chinese. In any case, the only thing the Chinese do care most about is money and resources, and of course anything standing in their way gets swatted aside.

In any case, N.E Asia has always struck me as resembling 1900s Europe in many ways, so I fully expect them to go to war in the next 20 years for whatever mundane face-saving reason they can think of. I honestly don't give a rat's ass how many people die in the attempt, but quite frankly, a weakened NE Asia is a good thing for rest of Asia.

Does China throw Koreans into their prisons, or is that an internal Chinese matter? Needless to remind you that Japan discriminated against various foreigners and even their own people from a lower caste for centuries. In any case Japan is, making some corrections for its wealth level, an offender quite similar to China - it has a conviction rate of 99%. Japan's prison system has been linked to numerous abuses, deaths of prisoners and the like - that in a nation where wealth is equalling a First World country and representative-democratic procedures do not seem to be compromised according to the West. Conviction rate for both countries (in fact, for almost all Asian countries) is exceptionally high.

The Chinese don't, but they are known for returning N. Korean defectors back to N. Korea, which is a certain death sentence.

[Patroklos]

The last time Japan claimed to protect Korean independence from China they afterwards decided to just swallow Korea up, try to obliterate the distinct korean identity and turn Koreans into a slave race for the japanese Herrenmenschen. The centuries of chinese domination were nothing when compared to a mere 30 years of japanese occupation. Yeah, sorry, but Korea is never going to accept a rearmed Japan, especially when they have so far only offered half-assed apologies for their atrocities while at the same time being busy to pour salt into the wounds by, among other things, romanticizing the occupation and worshiping war criminals. O yeah, and they still treat Japanese who descended from Koreans like second-class citizens.
Korea also has its own territorial disputes with Japan.

What is all this nonsense about Korea having qualms about the Japanese military or somehow not being regional allies?

http://www.defencetalk.com/us-south-kor ... ced-43187/

And both are regular major participants in RIMPAC and other events. It may not be a NEATO type thing, but they are plenty friendly and cooperative on the military front.

[Pelranius]

The last time Japan claimed to protect Korean independence from China they afterwards decided to just swallow Korea up, try to obliterate the distinct korean identity and turn Koreans into a slave race for the japanese Herrenmenschen. The centuries of chinese domination were nothing when compared to a mere 30 years of japanese occupation. Yeah, sorry, but Korea is never going to accept a rearmed Japan, especially when they have so far only offered half-assed apologies for their atrocities while at the same time being busy to pour salt into the wounds by, among other things, romanticizing the occupation and worshiping war criminals. O yeah, and they still treat Japanese who descended from Koreans like second-class citizens.
Korea also has its own territorial disputes with Japan.

What is all this nonsense about Korea having qualms about the Japanese military or somehow not being regional allies?

http://www.defencetalk.com/us-south-kor ... ced-43187/

And both are regular major participants in RIMPAC and other events. It may not be a NEATO type thing, but they are plenty friendly and cooperative on the military front.

You realize that China is taking part in RIMPAC next year? Therefore, A2/AD and Air Sea Battle are just gigantic bluffs?

For actual concrete proof of Korea distrusting Japan, here's the scuttled intelligence sharing pact from last year.

S. Korea Postpones Military Intelligence Accord With Japan
By Sangwon Yoon & Isabel Reynolds - Jun 29, 2012 4:28 AM ET

South Korea postponed an agreement with Japan to share military intelligence hours before it was to be signed because of opposition over the deal with the country’s former colonial occupier.

“The South Korean side told us that, due to domestic circumstances, they would not be able to sign today,” Japanese foreign ministry spokeswoman Naoko Saiki said by telephone. Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Osamu Fujimura told reporters the postponement was “disappointing.”

The accord, which was approved by Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda’s cabinet today and South Korean President Lee Myung Bak yesterday, would allow for exchanging information on North Korea’s nuclear weapons and missile programs and on Chinese military activities. South Korean Ambassador Shin Gak Soo and Japanese Foreign Minister Koichiro Gemba were scheduled to sign it in Tokyo.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-2 ... an-1-.html

The thing is still in limbo.

[mr friendly guy]

My bloody point, obviously buried with all the vitriol above, is that if you are going to go side one side against the other, you ought to at least know that the side you are siding with isn't exactly even remotely saintly, if at all.

1. No one made that claim about one side being saints, nor was it even relevant to the point Metahive made. Why is Metahive's point relevant? Because you god damn replied to it so anyone reading your post would interpret what you are trying to say as being counter to his point, as opposed to a totally irrelevant point.

2. The original point being that one side is less of a threat than the other. Is this a giant black / white false dichotomy where the only way for this to occur is one side must be saints and the other isn't. Good god.

If you wanted to derail his point, congratulations you've succeeded for all of, what 2 posts. If you thought your "bloody point" was somewhat relevant as a counter to Metahive's statement, then you failed miserably at explaining its relevance.

[ray245]

It's not the first time Fingolfin_Noldor let's his prejudice of China cloud his views.

Actually, to be more correct, I am a misanthrope, which means I hate humanity as a whole. It's just that the Chinese race happens to be one of the top few races I particularly despise for what they stand for, if they stand for anything at all.

So you are basically admitting you are racist? Fuck you then.

[AniThyng]

I used to think it was very clever of me to combat anti-japanese bias by smugly pointing out that even the Koreans have their problems with China, but lately it's clear that that means nothing in terms of them being any less distrustful of Japan. It's just a triangle of all 3 mutually having reasons to hate each other, with Japan being the most worth hating because everyone remembers WW2, no one gives a shit about things like China going to war with Vietnam or being former imperial overlord of Korea.

[K. A. Pital]

I do give a shit about the Sino-Vietnamese war, actually. Vietnam was at the time clearly more progressive than Chinese client states or China itself.

[Kane Starkiller]

Resenting a country over past slights and assessing which country presents the greatest danger now and in the future are two different things.
There is plenty of resentment over what Japan did however most countries in East Pacific rim seem to have reached the conclusion that China currently presents the greatest threat.

Also not all countries resent Japan. As far as I'm aware India has a relatively positive view of Japan seeing as how it greatly contributed to the demise of British Empire and both India and Japan have interests in curbing the expansion of Chinese influence.

[AniThyng]

Resenting a country over past slights and assessing which country presents the greatest danger now and in the future are two different things.
There is plenty of resentment over what Japan did however most countries in East Pacific rim seem to have reached the conclusion that China currently presents the greatest threat.

Also not all countries resent Japan. As far as I'm aware India has a relatively positive view of Japan seeing as how it greatly contributed to the demise of British Empire and both India and Japan have interests in curbing the expansion of Chinese influence.

I don't think what India thinks of Japan is particularly relevant in this context for precisely that reason. It's all well and good that Japan hasted the end of the British empire without being busy raping their way across India in the process!

There's also a difference between resentment based on actual past horror versus geopolitics - the military and political leadership may see China as the biggest threat geopolitically, but people to people, well, most of our grandparents are still alive and everyone generally puts hatred of the Japanese before things like hatred of communists or KMT or what have you.

@Stas

Speaking generally of course - most people probably don't even remember that there WAS a Sino-Vietnamese war, or even they do dismiss it as a border skirmish.

[AniThyng]

Back on the topic of Japanese warships...

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1 ... -diplomacy

At least *some* modelmakers have some interesting fantasies as to what the Helicopter Destroyers will be up to

A scale model of a Japanese warship has become a sold-out success, apparently thanks to controversy over box artwork that appears to show it steaming past a sinking Chinese aircraft carrier.

The 1/700th scale model of the helicopter carrier Hyuga, made by the Aoshima Bunka Kyoza model company, is being sold as a special edition titled "Operation Senkaku Hyuga", a reference to disputed islands that are known as the Senkakus in Japan and Diaoyus in China.

Since reports emerged this month about the controversial marketing gimmicks, the model has been sold out on many mail order websites in Japan.

The front of the box shows the warship with the contested islands on the horizon and an aircraft carrier that suspiciously resembles the Chinese carrier Liaoning spewing fire and smoke as it sinks in the background.

Released by Shizuoka-based Aoshima Bunka in April, the plastic kit sells for 3,020 yen (HK$235).

A spokesman for the company declined to comment on the design of the box or the title of the model.

The designer used a lot of artistic licence with the image on the box as it also portrays some Osprey transport aircraft approaching the Hyuga.

The first of the vertical take-off and landing aircraft only completed a test landing on the deck of the warship in joint exercises with the US Marines in California in mid-June, but Japan does not as yet operate Ospreys.

But Japan is considering buying the US aircraft.

The Defence Ministry has been impressed by its revolutionary tilt-rotors, which give it the speed and payload of a conventional fixed-wing aircraft, but also enable it to land like a helicopter when deployed vertically.

That would make it the perfect aircraft for deploying Japanese troops should there be a threat to Japan's control of the disputed islands.

The model and its artwork have not met with universal acclaim at home.

In a segment of a television programme addressing recent joint US-Japan exercises, the presenters pored over one of Aoshima Bunka's models of the helicopter carrier.

Former defence minister and the current secretary general of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party Shigeru Ishiba said that while it was worth looking into the possibility of buying Ospreys "the scenario being presented here [on the box] is exactly what we are trying to avoid," he said.

Chinese internet users have criticised Japan over the toy, accusing it of hyping up a war mentality. "The ambition of Japan is to start a war with Japan," said one mainland internet user in his microblog account.

Another microblog user said: "Maybe someone from China should make some comics showing how Japan is defeated."

But some other microblog users saw the box artwork as a warning for China. "It is possible that the Chinese aircraft carrier be defeated by Japan. We have just started to modernise our army, but Japan has done it for so many years," one post said.

Another post said: "We should all remember how China was defeated by Japan long time ago."

[Patroklos]

You realize that China is taking part in RIMPAC next year? Therefore, A2/AD and Air Sea Battle are just gigantic bluffs?

As an observer, just like Russia. Both South Korea and Japan are full members and thus have access to the meat of the exercise in a real tactical sense as opposed to just doing some freindship building like an observer.

For actual concrete proof of Korea distrusting Japan, here's the scuttled intelligence sharing pact from last year.

<article snip>

The thing is still in limbo.

So the relationship is a far cry from perfect. The important thing to note in your article is SK and Japan are already engaged in military exchanges and partnerships. Claims that they are just staring at each other with spite across the sea and wouldn't piss on the other if he were on fire are obviously far from reality.