The Force and Phase Cloaking

[TheDarkling]

Queeb Salaron: I'm going to assume you haven't read NJO because you simply don't understand what I'm talking about if this is the case then I will explain further so you have the context to undertsnad my post.

IG-88E: I fail to see what space fairing has to do with control of the force(apart from the numbers involved of course), and the Bajoran civilization is 500,000 years old (although they have only been space fairing for 800 years or so - no wonder the Cardies hammered them) and they don't display any force abilities.
Now that being said how long have force users been around - I know the Sith empire is roughly 5,000 years old but I suspect force use extends a great deal before then since Obi Wan said the Jedi have been around for 25,000 years or so it would seem force use existed as they went into space although we don't know what powers they displayed back then (do we?).
The idea that trek races aren't old enough is therefore a little weak and not being numerous enough is also a less than ideal explanation (we should still see some of them - remember Jedi are kind of picky and even so some worlds yield many force users in a single generation which have been trained to Jedi standards).

So we are left at the same point as where we started with trek seemingly devoid of the standard force and we also have an explanation of why this is so - it seems like the most obvious conclusion to me.

[Lord Pounder]

but if you notice the ship was clocked not the people in it it just hid the people in it so there for you would be able to still detect them

huh? are you drunk son?

He just repeated what i said at the start of the thread only in a really weird way. Shit I'M the drunk here. God Bless Saint Patrick.

[Kerneth]

Queeb Salaron: I'm going to assume you haven't read NJO because you simply don't understand what I'm talking about if this is the case then I will explain further so you have the context to undertsnad my post.

IG-88E: I fail to see what space fairing has to do with control of the force(apart from the numbers involved of course), and the Bajoran civilization is 500,000 years old (although they have only been space fairing for 800 years or so - no wonder the Cardies hammered them) and they don't display any force abilities.
Now that being said how long have force users been around - I know the Sith empire is roughly 5,000 years old but I suspect force use extends a great deal before then since Obi Wan said the Jedi have been around for 25,000 years or so it would seem force use existed as they went into space although we don't know what powers they displayed back then (do we?).
The idea that trek races aren't old enough is therefore a little weak and not being numerous enough is also a less than ideal explanation (we should still see some of them - remember Jedi are kind of picky and even so some worlds yield many force users in a single generation which have been trained to Jedi standards).

So we are left at the same point as where we started with trek seemingly devoid of the standard force and we also have an explanation of why this is so - it seems like the most obvious conclusion to me.

We don't have an explanation of Trek being devoid of the Force. We have the Yuuzhan Vong, who are devoid of the "standard" Force. Thus far, the best reason that they are invisible to the Force is because of a certain genetic sequence that shows up in all the Yuuzhan Vong and all of their creatures, which are also *all* Force-immune. Note also that all those beings originated from the same planet--Yuuzhan'tar. The only creature the Yuuzhan Vong use that isn't originally from Yuuzhan'tar, the voxyn, can be felt in the Force. Of course, the voxyn are derived from a SW galaxy species, so that argument's a bit of a wash.

Let's take a look at what all the species with the Yuuzhan Vong Force-resistance have in common--Yuuzhan'tar. There's not a whole lot of information to go on, unfortunately, but here's what I know off the top of my head.
1) All (known) creatures from Yuuzhan'tar have a specific genetic sequence in common.
2) All of them demonstrate some extremely *weird* capabilities. Ranging from extremely potent biotoxins, to the ability to produce fire, to the ability to produce a low-grade forcefield.
3) Yuuzhan Vong are noted to be stronger, faster, and more resilient to damage than humans. This indicates an unusually hostile environment.
4) Yuuzhan'tar is close to its system primary, and has a very exotic planetary ring.
5) The voxyn, which are not from Yuuzhan'tar but contain some Yuuzhan Vong genetics due to the genetic engineering, are visible in the Force...but not as much so as other creatures from the SW galaxy.

Now, people are going to argue "But those creatures are genetically engineered!". Absolutely right. But some of those abilities have to be natural, given that in Traitor we see many of the base stock that becomes Yuuzhan Vong bioweapons, including thud bugs, vonduun crab armor, and amphistaves.

I'm not a good debater, but here's how I see it. Something about Yuuzhan'tar produces creatures that possess very unusual abilities. My guess would be the big, close planetary ring contains high levels of radiation, resulting in more mutations of the species from that planet. But I'm not a biologist, or an astronomer, or a physicist so I could be pulling that idea out of my ass.

Anyway, it seems pretty obvious to me that the Yuuzhan Vong have a genetic sequence, resulting from some condition on their planet, that had the side effect of changing their "image" in the Force. You are trying to claim that everything not from the Star Wars galaxy has a similar ability, rather than dealing with the canon fact that everything *except* the Yuuzhan Vong can be felt "normally" in the Force. You need to prove that creatures from the ST universe have the same evolutionary need to develop a really weird-ass genetic structure that might happen to grant them a similar lack of Force presence.

[TheDarkling]

Kerneth: Well I'm not sure I do have to prove that Trek have an evolutionary need to develop force blindness (in fact such a thing seems like a disadvantage that should have been weeded out) however as you point from whatever reason the Vong are absent from the force (possibly due to a genetic sequence) and they also can't use the force, now the latter is true for trek creatures (no way to know about the former) and all trek creatures share common DNA (due to inter breeding) and this DNA came from a parent species (which doesn't exactly make sense but never mind that) is lets assume that for whatever reason the parent species had something similar to the Vong it would be passed down to their "offspring" (again this isn't great but it is canon) thus explaining the absence of force abilities in trek races.

Of course this leaves us with the problem of the species that are not the by product of the seeding also not having force abilities and it also relies upon the assumption that the Vong DNA sequence is the source of the force red shifting.

[JodoForce]

Why do the Trek people have to be similar to the Vong just because they can't sense / use the force? Can't they be just similar to plain ordinary dumb non-Jedi people in SW?

[Gandalf]

IIRC, no one in ST has been spacefaring for tens of thousands of years

-The Dominion are 10, 000 years old. That implies space travel of at least that long.
-The Voth had been in space for millions of years. (See "Distant Origin)
-Hirogen had been hunting around the cosmos for 50, 000 years. (See "The Killing Game")

There are no others I can remember.

[Darth Wong]

So we are left at the same point as where we started with trek seemingly devoid of the standard force and we also have an explanation of why this is so - it seems like the most obvious conclusion to me.

By the "logic" (appeal to ignorance) you have used to prove that the Force is useless in Star Trek, I can easily conclude that subspace is useless in Star Wars. Therefore, all Star Trek ships will spontaneously explode once they enter the Star Wars galaxy. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[SirNitram]

So we are left at the same point as where we started with trek seemingly devoid of the standard force and we also have an explanation of why this is so - it seems like the most obvious conclusion to me.

By the "logic" (appeal to ignorance) you have used to prove that the Force is useless in Star Trek, I can easily conclude that subspace is useless in Star Wars. Therefore, all Star Trek ships will spontaneously explode once they enter the Star Wars galaxy. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Actually, Subspace is quite usable in Star Wars. The true answer is that the subspace sensors of your standard ISD, which have a range of one hundred lightyears, so massively distort that subset of reality that any Trek ship approaching spontaneously detonates.

[SPOOFE]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Unless it's a tampon.

*Rimshot*

[TheDarkling]

So we are left at the same point as where we started with trek seemingly devoid of the standard force and we also have an explanation of why this is so - it seems like the most obvious conclusion to me.

By the "logic" (appeal to ignorance) you have used to prove that the Force is useless in Star Trek, I can easily conclude that subspace is useless in Star Wars. Therefore, all Star Trek ships will spontaneously explode once they enter the Star Wars galaxy. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

No I am afraid not - Trek doesn't display the force (standard force is what I mean by force) and there is an explanation for this in the theory of how the force works, so we have evidence indicating that the force doesn't exist in trek and we have information explaining this is possible from wars we therefore take the evidence look at, the rules governing the situation at hand and form a conclusion.

This explains perfectly what we see in trek and we also know it is possible from wars - what is the problem other than it weakening force users in Vs debates... oh wait now I see

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well damn, CoE (mass-lightening bullshit) doesn't exist in Trek either, but let's not be mean to poor Darkling.

[SirNitram]

So we are left at the same point as where we started with trek seemingly devoid of the standard force and we also have an explanation of why this is so - it seems like the most obvious conclusion to me.

By the "logic" (appeal to ignorance) you have used to prove that the Force is useless in Star Trek, I can easily conclude that subspace is useless in Star Wars. Therefore, all Star Trek ships will spontaneously explode once they enter the Star Wars galaxy. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

No I am afraid not - Trek doesn't display the force (standard force is what I mean by force) and there is an explanation for this in the theory of how the force works, so we have evidence indicating that the force doesn't exist in trek and we have information explaining this is possible from wars we therefore take the evidence look at, the rules governing the situation at hand and form a conclusion.

This explains perfectly what we see in trek and we also know it is possible from wars - what is the problem other than it weakening force users in Vs debates... oh wait now I see

Does your lobotomized brain even understand what an appeal to ignorance is?

[TheDarkling]

Well damn, CoE (mass-lightening bullshit) doesn't exist in Trek either, but let's not be mean to poor Darkling.

Why would that be being mean to me?

SirNitram: Yes I understand your point given evidence from one situation which fits with one of two possible explanations we must choose the one it differs from most to be the correct answer.

The setup of the force in trek is in keeping with the Vong force setup and not standard wars force setup so I therefore conclude the explanation is the former not the latter, I am not saying since it can't be disproved it is (or the opposite) I am saying the evidence supports one conclusion above another - if you cannot make the distinction I believe it is you who is in dire need of neurological adjustment.

However if I am somehow misunderstanding you by all means spell it out for my poor surgery impaired brain.

[Kurgan]

There might be a brainbug in here somewhere, but Troi is supposed to just be an empath (sense emotions of others) because she's only HALF betazoid, whereas a full betazoid is (at least in theory) a full telepath... as her mother Loxwana (sp?) demonstrated in the episodes she was in.

[Kurgan]

Frankly all that stuff about the Vong still reeks of the "uber bio-tech" myth that's so chic in sci fi these days.

A better explanation to all this (IMNSHO, heh) is that the Vong really DO have the Force, but instead of using the Force to detect stuff or hurl lightning bolts or choke people, they use it to BLOCK everything. "Force Defense" or something like that. Like a Ysalamari.

The "uber" ESP, magician or TK characters in Trek could be said to simply be using different manifestations of the force (on varying levels which would be different for species that percieve the world differently, etc).

Well, I tried anyway... ; )

[Darth Wong]

SirNitram: Yes I understand your point given evidence from one situation which fits with one of two possible explanations we must choose the one it differs from most to be the correct answer.

Your sarcasm does not refute the point. You do not understand what is wrong with the appeal to ignorance fallacy.

The setup of the force in trek is in keeping with the Vong force setup and not standard wars force setup

Vong "force setup?" The Vong have the ability to block the Force; this does not mean that the fundamental nature of the Force is somehow different in their vicinity. Sith lords can suppress use of the Force as well; does this mean they are Vong, or that the Force does not apply around them? Your leaps in logic are unbelievably stupid, as are your blatant appeals to motive. Whenever your logic is challenged, you just say "well, you're just saying that because you want ..." and act as though this is a rebuttal. It is not.

so I therefore conclude the explanation is the former not the latter, I am not saying since it can't be disproved it is (or the opposite) I am saying the evidence supports one conclusion above another

No, because your theory relies upon different kinds of "force setup" when there is no need to multiply terms.

- if you cannot make the distinction I believe it is you who is in dire need of neurological adjustment.

You must prove that this distinction exists first. The ability to cancel out a phenomenon does not mean that the phenomenon has a different "setup", dumb-ass.

However if I am somehow misunderstanding you by all means spell it out for my poor surgery impaired brain.

Real-life scientific examples disprove your idiotic leap in logic. Again, the ability to cancel out a phenomenon does not mean you get a "get out of jail free" card. You must possess the same phenomenon in equal quantity in order to do it.

[TheDarkling]

Darth Wong: Since you don't believe me about the3 differing force setups I suggest you either read Traitor ask someone else here or has read it, we are told that the force functions much like the EM spectrum and the force that binds the Vong is like UV (or IR I can't remember which they say) to the visual spectrum of the standard force, thus it is there but its outside of the perceptual range of the Jedi (and it aslo doesn't function in the same way thus the Vong can't use it to lift X-Wings).

Before this I would have simply said the force existed in trek (it must since the force is all encompassing) and for some unknown reason they didn't have access to it now we have something in the way which the force works to explain why trek seemingly is absent the force therefore by doing so we answer the unknown of why trek folk can't access the force.

[Darth Wong]

Darth Wong: Since you don't believe me about the3 differing force setups I suggest you either read Traitor ask someone else here or has read it, we are told that the force functions much like the EM spectrum and the force that binds the Vong is like UV (or IR I can't remember which they say) to the visual spectrum of the standard force, thus it is there but its outside of the perceptual range of the Jedi (and it aslo doesn't function in the same way thus the Vong can't use it to lift X-Wings).

And how does this mean that there is a different "setup"? They possess a variety of the Force that allows them to block other Force users; this does not mean that people who have no use of the Force at all must be assumed by default to be immune to it, dumb-ass. Does the term "leap in logic" mean anything to you?

Before this I would have simply said the force existed in trek (it must since the force is all encompassing) and for some unknown reason they didn't have access to it now we have something in the way which the force works to explain why trek seemingly is absent the force therefore by doing so we answer the unknown of why trek folk can't access the force.

So you take a "one kind of Force can be used to suppress another" and conclude that "the Force only works on people with certain genetic structure". What the fuck have you been smoking?

[SirNitram]

Darth Wong: Since you don't believe me about the3 differing force setups I suggest you either read Traitor ask someone else here or has read it, we are told that the force functions much like the EM spectrum and the force that binds the Vong is like UV (or IR I can't remember which they say) to the visual spectrum of the standard force, thus it is there but its outside of the perceptual range of the Jedi (and it aslo doesn't function in the same way thus the Vong can't use it to lift X-Wings).

Before this I would have simply said the force existed in trek (it must since the force is all encompassing) and for some unknown reason they didn't have access to it now we have something in the way which the force works to explain why trek seemingly is absent the force therefore by doing so we answer the unknown of why trek folk can't access the force.

I suggest you prove the similarity to the unique nature of Vong biotech and the widely varying species of Star Trek, remembering all Vong biotech and Vong come from one planet. Consider also this might be an intended result of their bio-tinkering, having faced FS before. Finally, extract your head from your ass and stop resorting to Appeal-style fallacies. In closing, remember that Vong can be sensed(I think it's Jacen who develops the ability to feel them out), so they are not entire Force-absent(We know what Force absense is like, a la the ysalamari. Which is not what happens with the Vong).

[TheDarkling]

Darth Wong: Since you don't believe me about the3 differing force setups I suggest you either read Traitor ask someone else here or has read it, we are told that the force functions much like the EM spectrum and the force that binds the Vong is like UV (or IR I can't remember which they say) to the visual spectrum of the standard force, thus it is there but its outside of the perceptual range of the Jedi (and it aslo doesn't function in the same way thus the Vong can't use it to lift X-Wings).

And how does this mean that there is a different "setup"? They possess a variety of the Force that allows them to block other Force users; this does not mean that people who have no use of the Force at all must be assumed by default to be immune to it, dumb-ass. Does the term "leap in logic" mean anything to you?

Sorry I should have said different Frequncy instead of setup, I didn't say they must be immune to the force just that it can't be assumed they operate on the same force frequmcy (especially given the evidence points to the conclusion they operate on another frequency).

Before this I would have simply said the force existed in trek (it must since the force is all encompassing) and for some unknown reason they didn't have access to it now we have something in the way which the force works to explain why trek seemingly is absent the force therefore by doing so we answer the unknown of why trek folk can't access the force.

So you take a "one kind of Force can be used to suppress another" and conclude that "the Force only works on people with certain genetic structure". What the fuck have you been smoking?[/quote]

I never said that - I imagine the residents of wars have varying genetics unlike trek species, I simply said the force does have many frequencies and the evidence points to trek using one of these..

[TheDarkling]

I suggest you prove the similarity to the unique nature of Vong biotech and the widely varying species of Star Trek, remembering all Vong biotech and Vong come from one planet.

I already exlpained about the trek species, short version they are very similar - you want specifics go back and read where I stated it earlier.

Consider also this might be an intended result of their bio-tinkering, having faced FS before.

This next part is suppostion without anything to back it up.

Finally, extract your head from your ass and stop resorting to Appeal-style fallacies. In closing, remember that Vong can be sensed(I think it's Jacen who develops the ability to feel them out), so they are not entire Force-absent(We know what Force absense is like, a la the ysalamari. Which is not what happens with the Vong).

I never said it was like the Ysalamari - when I say absent from the force I mean the standard force, I stated this many times I just use it as short hand sorry if you can't keep up.

Jacen learns to see them in the force after a few months of torture and having an implant put into him, I'm sure the same would probably be true for Jedi trying to access the force in trek (or for use on trek people).

[SirNitram]

I suggest you prove the similarity to the unique nature of Vong biotech and the widely varying species of Star Trek, remembering all Vong biotech and Vong come from one planet.

I already exlpained about the trek species, short version they are very similar - you want specifics go back and read where I stated it earlier.

All I see is assertions 'They don't use it like the Jedi! So my theory must be right!!'. Of course, you ignore the simpler theory: They, like the majority in SW, are simply not harnessing it. Of course, you have never liked Occam's Razor, it keeps slaughtering your theories.

Consider also this might be an intended result of their bio-tinkering, having faced FS before.

This next part is suppostion without anything to back it up.

More evidence for it than your nonsense, but yes, supposition to explain an observed phenom.

Finally, extract your head from your ass and stop resorting to Appeal-style fallacies. In closing, remember that Vong can be sensed(I think it's Jacen who develops the ability to feel them out), so they are not entire Force-absent(We know what Force absense is like, a la the ysalamari. Which is not what happens with the Vong).

I never said it was like the Ysalamari - when I say absent from the force I mean the standard force, I stated this many times I just use it as short hand sorry if you can't keep up.

Jacen learns to see them in the force after a few months of torture and having an implant put into him, I'm sure the same would probably be true for Jedi trying to access the force in trek (or for use on trek people).

Unfortunately, you being 'sure' is worth precisely dick. You have to have better than 'They don't use it therefore they must be specially different just like a species from one world in one galaxy' instead of 'They don't use it because they haven't learned how'.

[Kurgan]

Even though its essentially technobabble nonsense (but let's suspend disbelief and pretend it works) in the Trek galaxy, its been established that the majority of humanoid lifeforms are in fact related genetically, due to the alien "seeding" of genetic material XXXX millennia ago.

So, in that sense, since we have humans in the Star Wars galaxy, and humans in the Trek galaxy, you'd think they'd be close enough so that the Force would still "work on them" if some Jedi/Sith crossed over and they wouldn't be like the Vong.

That is, if we even accept the notion that the Force is dependant on genetics (which isn't answered by the fact that it works on inanimate objects).

Any other argument about the Force in the Trek galaxy begins to sound like the crappy Species 8472 explanation that they are from another dimensions with different laws of physics (did I get that right) and that's why they behave like they do (but Voyager still works fine in their "fluidic space" even though you'd think it wouldn't).

[Kurgan]

TK/ESPer beings in the Trek universe may not call it "the Force" and may understand its use differently than in the SW universe, but it may be in fact equivalent. After all... it's an "energy field created by all living things" and without it "life as we know it could not exist."