Federation Military Topics (Reboot, Spoilers)

[NecronLord]

Simple enough thread concept starting out, inspired by the Transwarp Beaming thread. I'm keen to see what kind of advantages, in terms of military capacity, the rebooted Star Trek has. This is merely a start at trying to get a better idea of how they'll perform in vs scenarios etc. At the minute I don't have the DVDs, and plan to come back to this when the Into Darkness DVD is released. At this point it's mostly a list of topics I think need to be covered. Discussion, critque and other topics to be covered is welcome.

Evidence Rules

It's a reboot, so no evidence from other works than Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek: Into Darkness are admissable. I'm not interested in the prequel comic, and only partially interested in the novelizations or games, as I doubt they're really canon.

USS Kelvin

Weapons:

• Beam phasers in ball turrets, able to intercept some missiles.
• Secondary weapons of some kind.

Sub Craft

• Various shuttles including at least one dedicated medical shuttle.

USS Enterprise

Weapons:

• At least 10 and probably 24 torpedo launchers along the port and starboard sides of the engineering section.
• Various phasers, capable of eliminating at least 11 torpedos over 10 seconds, with a high rate of fire, capable of opening fire 1/24th of a second after dropping out of warp.

Speed:
Warp speed in this version of the setting seems rather fast. Are there any continous scenes we can use to establish this?

Sub Craft

• Various shuttles on a double-layer landing deck.
• At least one shuttle custom-equipped to deliver parachutists (alternatively all shuttles may have this, but I don't think they all have the door on the floor)
• Harry Mudd's ship.

USS Vengeance

Weapons:

• At least two very large turret guns, I don't think we see them fire?
• Numerous phasers.
• What else?

Sub Craft

• Unknown, but the hangar bay Scotty was in had a high number, I think 13? Will confirm.

Speed:
Stated to be three times the speed of the Enterprise (Need to do a source check on this).

Other Starfleet Ships

No remarks yet.

Aircraft

• What appear to be fighters exist, and are used in the flypast at the end of Into Darkness. Capabilities unknown.
• Khan's Jumpship, a phaser-equipped combat aircraft of some type, presumably an analogue of an attack helicopter. I've relatively high hopes that this thing shooting into Starfleet HQ would give some usable firepower calcs. I also am not sure where the Captains' meeting that he attacked was but I think it was SF; if so we can establish a lower limit range of London to SF, and lower limit speed if we have a time specified, for this thing too.

Smallarms

• Phaser pistols, don't seem to have a vaporize setting, or iron sights. No trigger guard, but this is not actually present on a real pistol intended for cosmonaut use by the USSR because the spacesuit would potentially be problematic in using it, so I'd not actually consider that a drawback.
• Phaser Rifles, with sights, stocks, and trigger guards; everything but a sling. I was impressed. No sign of stun or vaporize settings.
• Tripod Mounted rocket launchers capable of engaging aircraft, featuring some manner of sights.

Other

• Militarily useful and trained orbital divers exist.
• Sulu has a sword, and it's stated to be a form of advanced combat training which implies that Starfleet at least maintains a sword-use school somewhere. More importantly it's small, obviating most of the disadvantages of using such a thing.
• Section 31 has some long range torpedos, and other bits and pieces here.
• Transwarp Beaming

Can anyone else think of anything that needs to be examined that I might have missed?

[Mr Bean]

Weapons:
[*]At least 72 torpedo tubes, in order to have all of Khan's crew loaded into tubes in Into Darkness.

Was there any dialog to indicate that all 72 missiles would be fired at once instead of them being fired in groups of X? I don't need 72 missile tubes for a terrestrial Aegis cruiser to fire 72 missiles (Assuming a hypothetical ultra big aegis existed with the payload to carry that many)

[Admiral Drason]

Kahn had that heavy phaser rifle thing, I don't know if its starfleet issue or maybe Klingon but still I think it implies starfleet does use squad support weapons.

[Captain Seafort]

I don't need 72 missile tubes for a terrestrial Aegis cruiser to fire 72 missiles (Assuming a hypothetical ultra big aegis existed with the payload to carry that many)

Huh? An Aegis carries one missile per tube, and it's got 122 of them.

[Mr Bean]

I don't need 72 missile tubes for a terrestrial Aegis cruiser to fire 72 missiles (Assuming a hypothetical ultra big aegis existed with the payload to carry that many)

Huh? An Aegis carries one missile per tube, and it's got 122 of them.

Exactly... except the Enterprise does not contain all of it's missiles ready to fire. This implies reloading and storage.

[NecronLord]

Except of course that is said multiple times in dialogue that they are loaded and ready to launch, and there are external shots of ports with torpedos in them along the broadsides of the engineering section. When Khan beams them onto the Vengance we see a diagram of where they are in the Enterprise, which is in two long rows along the sides of the engineering section.

There is also no implication that seventy two missiles is the full capacity, that's merely how many Marcus ordered loaded that had the freezer units in them.

[Mr Bean]

Except of course that is said multiple times in dialogue that they are loaded and ready to launch, and there are external shots of ports with torpedos in them along the broadsides of the engineering section. When Khan beams them onto the Vengance we see a diagram of where they are in the Enterprise, which is in two long rows along the sides of the engineering section.

There is also no implication that seventy two missiles is the full capacity, that's merely how many Marcus ordered loaded that had the freezer units in them.

But there's no correlation between 72 missile tubes and 10 or 20 tubes which have multiple missile magazines. Even in movie 1 when the Enterprise was firing in anger we did not see 72 missiles being fired at the mining ship.

Also what are the chances that it just so happens Khan's crew has the identical number of people to the number of missile tubes on the Enterprise?

[NecronLord]

Or they had a hundred tubes of which seventy two were loaded. In truth there's no way to know how many there are until evidence is obtained, which is kinda the point. My memory says there's at least five shown externally and dialogue indicates that all seventy two are loaded into launchers of some kind.

Of course, none of the side mounted torpedos are seen firing in either film, which may suggest they're new since the first film.

[Mr Bean]

Or they had a hundred tubes of which seventy two were loaded. In truth there's no way to know how many there are until evidence is obtained, which is kinda the point. My memory says there's at least five shown externally and dialogue indicates that all seventy two are loaded into launchers of some kind.

Of course, none of the side mounted torpedos are seen firing in either film, which may suggest they're new since the first film.

Which means that this

At least 72 torpedo tubes

Does not hold up to scrutiny

This

At least 72 torpedos can be loaded and be ready to fire

Does until such time as we get a movie where we finally see the start of a battle or a ship firing in anger with everything it has.

Sounds like we could use a good Borg Cube.

[NecronLord]

You're right, of course, the statement was too much; we really only know that they can have 72 or more readied (I think there's a scene of them being put into autoloaders etc). I am of course writing from my own memory of the film and perceptions as a member of the audience, proper scrutiny has yet to be applied; we shall see when more evidence becomes available. That's rather the point of the thread, a list of topics to be examined, not solid assertions. The impression I got from watching the film was that they were all in torpedo tubes. This will naturally be examined. As I said, I'm pretty sure an interface on the Vengeance has more detailed information about them.

Speaking of interfaces: Pike's Office Concept Art - Shows Map

Is also interesting. I will have to see if it made it into the actual movie and if so if we can get usable information from it. Sadly I don't think it does.

[Batman]

You had to steal my thunder and flat out admit that all of this is so far speculation didn't you.
The point I would have made if you hadn't rendered it moot by admitting we don't really know much of anything about nuTrek was that 72 torpedoes in tubes does not necessarily equal 72 tubes. They could be in groups of six per tube making it all of 12 tubes (or groups of 2, 3, 4, 8, 12, whatever strikes your fancy), to be launched in a single salvo from that single tube.

[biostem]

The fact that the Vengeance was able to overtake the Enterprise, in warp, and be able to attack at the same time, was the most impressive thing for me. The only problem is whether it or it's technologies can be built fast enough and in large enough quantities to really make a difference.

The other factor is whether the Enterprise's weapons really did significant damage to the Narada at the end of the 1st move - it was already being ripped apart from the inside-out, and Kirk may have simply been firing "just to make sure".

Lastly, just how effective was the Kevlin's point defense system? It wasn't able to stop the missiles being fired at it - only ones passing by it and headed toward the shuttles. Those shuttles also didn't seem warp capable - otherwise why wouldn't they have done so as soon as they were clear of the Enterprise?

[Lord Revan]

Kahn had that heavy phaser rifle thing, I don't know if its starfleet issue or maybe Klingon but still I think it implies starfleet does use squad support weapons.

it seemed like some sort of light phaser cannon or heavy phaser MG for squad support as it was strong enough to take out that Klingon shuttle but still manportble.

[Lord Revan]

It would be intresting to know if what we saw was intended to be the standard MO for the Dreadnaught class or if it was a special occation.

as far I could see the tactic seemed to be catch-up with the ship in warp then cripple it with standard weapons then use those big guns to finish the target off.

either way those big guns seemed to have signifigant deployment and charge up time (which allowed Scotty to stop them the first time).

[Prometheus Unbound]

Speed:
Stated to be three times the speed of the Enterprise (Need to do a source check on this).

"twice the size, three times the power" was the line.

Carol only said that they could keep up due to some modifications. It's never said it's 3 times as fast.

[StarSword]

Think there's any way to get numbers for industrial and shipbuilding capacity and the like? (I'm doubtful, but I thought I'd ask anyway.)

[NecronLord]

Only in terms of the number of ships at the starbase I'd think.

So, I bought the Star Trek 2009 DVD the other day and started work (very slowly, natch) and started looking at the scene where the Enterprise saves the Jellyfish by intercepting missiles fired at it. Something that impressed me is how little time actually passes between the Enterprise first appearing as a dot of light in the distance and it opening fire - a tiny eight frames with the first shot fired on the ninth; a fraction of a second; it certainly doesn't hang about.

[Captain Seafort]

So, I bought the Star Trek 2009 DVD the other day and started work (very slowly, natch) and started looking at the scene where the Enterprise saves the Jellyfish by intercepting missiles fired at it. Something that impressed me is how little time actually passes between the Enterprise first appearing as a dot of light in the distance and it opening fire - a tiny eight frames with the first shot fired on the ninth; a fraction of a second; it certainly doesn't hang about.

Not only that, but the first shots are fired in the first frame after the warp glow fades. Given that they're apparently blind at warp, since the neo-E didn't know that the task force at Vulcan had been destroyed until after she'd dropped out of warp, that's even more impressive.

[NecronLord]

I'd not made that link. Wow. Some impressive reactions there.

Next up, the actual missiles themselves:



Click for a bigger version. I count 26, but I have also uploaded the original file so that anyone who wants to verify it can: here This is an upper limit of how many get shot down, some might have missed offscreen. I want to focus on the actual kills we see, in the first shot, a rear angle of the Enterprise, where it intercepts missiles, four in this shot. It looks like they might be the same but we can actually see two distinct sets of two explosions, I've made a gif to demonstrate that.






Probably the last time I'll be able to sit down and do this for a bit, but provisionally I count about seven other missiles hit making it around 11 that we see hit; the Enterprise shoots extensively at targets offscreen of course, too.

[Lord Revan]

considering that the Jellyfish doesn't look like it could taken even one of those missiles (it was built for speed after all not durability), it's likely that Enterprice shot down all 26 of those missiles.

[NecronLord]

Starting out with the four hits already established, it cuts to a frame showing three explosions simultaneous, meaning that we're looking at a minimum of five hits so far.

There's an intervening frame or two I've missed here where these explosions die down and then there are two more simultaneous hits.

Again, intervening frame omitted here where the previous two explosions are changed in position, and then it hits a third missile (we see this missile before the Enterprise hits it)

The next few frames have three shots in quick succession, bringing us up to 11 hits in all.



These can be seen in their original context in an upload here:



The interception takes place between 26 and 36 seconds, meaning that it eliminated these missiles in approximately ten seconds. Note also that it cuts away to show Sulu and Chekov on the bridge, meaning that more missiles are almost certainly during this time, as well as any that are hit offscreen.

[NecronLord]

Looking through the other scenes where the Enterprise fights the Nerada (well, gets shat on by the Nerada), a few things jumped out at me.



Shields can be raised at warp, and remain up (the shields are mentioned as being dropped to thirty something percent by the first hit from one of Nero's missiles shortly after) while dropping out of warp. While this was also a thing in old-trek, treating it as a completely new setting, this is evidence of that.

Now perhaps one of the biggest controversies; speed.



Here we see the whole cut between leaving spacedock, and arriving at Vulcan. Certainly when Chekov says three minutes, we can assume three minutes to arrive, unless there's evidence to the contrary. The impression this scene gives me is that it's a little over three minutes to Vulcan, given that it's from the time it takes them to reach maximum warp, and then three minutes, and later in the film they don't mention any prolonged period to build up speed to maximum warp (nor in the next film as far as I know).

Presuming Vulcan is around Alpha Centauri (this is not so in the original series, but we've no evidence here) that would be around 1 ly/minute, and thus it would take around seventy days to cross the galaxy (if it can carry the fuel, which presumably it can as a five year mission is mentioned in the next film). But that is a lower limit. If we agree that it doesn't take long to reach maximum warp.

However, it's possible that Kirk was unconscious (though I do not think mild sedative implies that, I might have to ask someone with medical expertise), and took some time to wake up, here, but I do not get that impression.

EDIT: With some background reading, I note people have pointed out that Kirk is unconscious long enough for McCoy to change costume into a blue shirt, so there must be some time passing there.

[Skylon]

You can excuse a lot of the warp speed travel time issues and truncated film time (though explaining your mission objective until a mere three minutes prior to arrival at your destination is odd). I mean, a lot happens in film before the Narada and Enterprise are able to make it back to Earth for the film's climax, although you could argue Nero's crew had to spend that time torturing Pike for Starfleet's defense codes and repairing the drill, which was damaged by Kirk and Sulu.

I guess we'll see on the re-watch, but the point the travel times in the new films really seemed to be unquestionably shorter is the Vengeance's chase of Enterprise, starting at the edge of Klingon space and ending in the vicinity of the Moon. The sequence felt so fluid. I don't recall anything that gave an idea/excuse that a substantial amount of time had passed.

[NecronLord]

So, been looking at the other incidents where the CIWS is relevant, specifically with the USS Kelvin, and the first time the Enterprise is hit.



We don't see the Enterprise fire at all here, but we do see the missile break apart into clusters. There's really not much to say here.

Now for the Kelvin.

The first thing that jumps out at me is that the Kelvin's much closer than either the Jellyfish or the Enterprise wherein the other scene. It's within one (Nerada) ship length of the Nerada.



Compared to the Jellyfish this is very close, which should mean that the missiles were in flight for less time to be intercepted than they were by Enterprise later on.



The second relevant bit here is that the missiles actually break apart into many fragments to defeat CIWS here, that then hit the Kelvin. We see this when the Nerada hits the Enterprise also, to a smaller degree.



I will try to do a fragment count, but as we see in the later frames some of these are submunitions, others are presumably inert fragments, and are probably not too important.

The Kelvin battle, for review.





I find it interesting that the missiles swerve to follow the shuttles.

[Skylon]

A little aside about transporters, but in spite of the issues with beaming moving targets, transporters may have a more effective range than demonstrated in the prime universe - and I'm not referring to just the whole transwarp beaming.

Kirk and Spock are able to be transported from the Enterprise to the Narada effortlessly while one is in the vicinity of Saturn, and the other, Earth. This seemed to be presented as just normal transporter operations, and not using the whole "transwarp beaming" thing. And I don't remember anything like that happening in the prior series'. You had to be in planetary orbit or in close proximity to another ship.