David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events

[Grumman]

...alternatively some arbitrary rule-date like "100 years bp" is bound to encourage nations to hold posessions over 100 years to make them "inalienable", then use force of arms to keep them with full approval of the so-called "international community")...

Just like that? You think that a government is capable of such long term planning? You think the Tzar could come up with such a plan and have the Soviet Union and post-Soviet Russia follow through? He couldn't even manage "Don't murder me", let alone "Follow this plan so that a century down the line your successors will have uncontested possession of a new state".

b) its to counter the argument proposed by Grumman and also Alyeska that the line is drawn after the original victims and perpetrators are not the ones being compensated / punished by your action to pay reparation, but rather their descendants who are compensated / punished.

That is not where I drew the line. In fact, my argument explicitly referred to such a first-degree-of-separation situation. But Gibraltar is far more distant. We are not talking about giving a grandchild their grandmother's stolen jewelery, because everyone who might have ever known them is dead of old age, everyone who knew them is dead of old age and everyone who knew them is dead of old age too.

[Simon_Jester]

Meanwhile, the people living on Gibraltar's basic bottom line is that Gibraltar is neither Britain's to give nor Spain's to receive; if it belongs to anyone it belongs to the people living on Gibraltar.

[K. A. Pital]

Just like that? You think that a government is capable of such long term planning?

Russia still keeps huge parts of Manchuria which were grabbed during the Russian Tsar's expansion to the East, to itself. The death of particular rulers does not matter - a bureaucracy survives well through coups and revolutions. You wanted to make a counter-example? Please do so.

But Gibraltar is far more distant. We are not talking about giving a grandchild their grandmother's stolen jewelery, because everyone who might have ever known them is dead of old age, everyone who knew them is dead of old age and everyone who knew them is dead of old age too.

And Portuguese Goa, which has been brought up earlier, had been taken after 500 years of colonial rule.

Meanwhile, the people living on Gibraltar's basic bottom line is that Gibraltar is neither Britain's to give nor Spain's to receive; if it belongs to anyone it belongs to the people living on Gibraltar.

I think that Britain has pretty much filled all their questionable posessions, like Falklands, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar, with their own citizens. Who are, of course, moderately or completely alien to the nations which are party to the dispute. So ethnic displacement does work, and it works really good, sad as it is.

[mr friendly guy]

Are there any examples of a government explicitly deciding to kill or drive away the people in an area, to make sure that three or four generations down the road their descendants won't try to sue in the ICC?

Its not so much they fear the ICC specifically, its that on some level they
a) accept that after much time they gain the benefits of ethnic cleansing
b) other people accept that type of argument

which gives them another incentive to ethnically cleanse people they don't like.

[Patroklos]

And Portuguese Goa, which has been brought up earlier, had been taken after 500 years of colonial rule.

You keep bringing this up, but fail to mention it was repatriated via conquest on the part of India.I am not sure this fits into your non violent non imperialist narrative.

[K. A. Pital]

And Portuguese Goa, which has been brought up earlier, had been taken after 500 years of colonial rule.

You keep bringing this up, but fail to mention it was repatriated via conquest on the part of India.I am not sure this fits into your non violent non imperialist narrative.

It was already mentioned - and I have noted that with regards to Gibraltar Spain has specifically excluded a violent retake option. As for the retake of Goa, are you seriously saying that taking back a territory from a colonial master where the populace is rebelling against him is "imperialist"?

[Elfdart]

Spain has been compared to North Korea in how it's behaving

By who? Retarded people, or the Daily Mail?

Aren't they one and the same?

Cameron must think his goose is cooked in the next election when he clutches for crap like this. This is almost as pathetic as when he and the Tory press went all "OH NOES! The Argentines are trying to take back the Falklands!". Never mind that the current government is mostly made up of people who had far more reason to hate the Galtieri Junta than the British government ever did.

Still, it's kinda funny watching a washed-up power like Britain still pretending to be relevant (aside from providing Uncle Sam with a convenient aircraft carrier and a brigade of under-equipped troops, I mean) by not only clinging to its last few outposts, but pretending to be under attack from an even bigger imperial has-been like Spain. It's like watching a catfight where one old hag with tits below her knees attacks another because because she shouldn't be trying on a sexy dress at her age.

[Dartzap]

Apart from the fact it wasnt Cameron who said that, it was the bloke in Gibraltar....?

[Simon_Jester]

Its not so much they fear the ICC specifically, its that on some level they
a) accept that after much time they gain the benefits of ethnic cleansing
b) other people accept that type of argument

which gives them another incentive to ethnically cleanse people they don't like.

People already do and think that sort of thing anyway, and always have.

The prospect of immediate trouble brought on by a war of conquest (Saddam Hussein's fortunes went from 'good' to 'terrible' the day he decided to invade Kuwait, for instance) is probably a much better deterrent than the prospect of eventual trouble brought on by "the international order will not allow your country to keep the fruits of its imperialism, it will be given back... eventually, a few hundred years from now."

Meanwhile, the people living on Gibraltar's basic bottom line is that Gibraltar is neither Britain's to give nor Spain's to receive; if it belongs to anyone it belongs to the people living on Gibraltar.

I think that Britain has pretty much filled all their questionable posessions, like Falklands, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar, with their own citizens. Who are, of course, moderately or completely alien to the nations which are party to the dispute. So ethnic displacement does work, and it works really good, sad as it is.

The problem is that when the ethnic displacement took place hundreds of years ago, it really does raise a practical question of what we are to do about it. Northern Ireland and Gibraltar are hardly the only places on Earth where one people displaced another a few hundred years ago, after all.

If we are to resolve that ethnic displacement cannot be allowed to work, and alter the world accordingly... what doesn't change? Who is not going to have to move as a consequence of this?

[K. A. Pital]

First of all we have to admit that we should prevent new instances of ethnic displacement as best as we can. Even that condition is not well fulfilled. Second, we have to be able to rethink the idea of inalienable enclaves in foreign land and try to streamline borders if we see tension spots. These are not unrealistic proposals.

[Siege]

In case of Gibraltar none of this border stuff should even matter, really. The Schengen treaty is the perfect tool for Gibraltar to rid itself of annoying customs checks and it completely beats me why they wouldn't be regular treaty members (beyond the reason of jingo that is).

Even then, just ignore the right-wing douchebags trying to drum up old-fashioned nationalistic sentiment and give it fifty years and that border will likely be history. Then anybody who wants to settle on that stupid piece of rock can do so and it'll all balance itself out nicely.

[Starglider]

First of all we have to admit that we should prevent new instances of ethnic displacement as best as we can. Even that condition is not well fulfilled. Second, we have to be able to rethink the idea of inalienable enclaves in foreign land and try to streamline borders if we see tension spots. These are not unrealistic proposals.

Who is 'we' and what is 'prevent'.

[K. A. Pital]

We citizens of the industrialized world. Prevent means to act even against people who are like, geopolitical allies.

[cosmicalstorm]

The UK is apparently sending warships to Gibraltar.

[Zaune]

The UK is apparently sending warships to Gibraltar.

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Two and a half square miles of land, mostly used for tourism and tax-dodging, is worth sending over a gunboat these days? Doesn't that make you proud to be British...

[Thanas]

AFAIK - and you know I hate British imperialists as much as anybody - this is just a regular stopover on the way to exercises in the med or the horn. Nothing to be concerned about, except if you are a journo looking for a story.

(I won't deny that there is also the "showing the flag" benefits but it is not as if the UK went out of its way to send the ship there)

[CJvR]

Doesn't Spain have enough problems as it is?

It seems they are even willing to jump into bed with the oil-company stealing Argentinians...
Falklands and Gibraltar

According to reports in Sunday’s Madrid media, besides the Repsol/YPF controversy, Garcia-Margalla and Hector Timerman will discuss if Spain and Argentina can have a unified position at the UN to challenge the British government on their territorial disputes.

“Currently is could be attractive an entente with Buenos Aires: Argentina is a member of the Security Council in 2013/14 and could include, or at least attempt to, the Gibraltar issue in the Security Council agenda. Even when the UK has a veto right, it should abstain on an issue that involves her directly”, points out El Pais quoting diplomatic sources.

[Colonel Olrik]

And Portuguese Goa, which has been brought up earlier, had been taken after 500 years of colonial rule.

You keep bringing this up, but fail to mention it was repatriated via conquest on the part of India.I am not sure this fits into your non violent non imperialist narrative.

It was already mentioned - and I have noted that with regards to Gibraltar Spain has specifically excluded a violent retake option. As for the retake of Goa, are you seriously saying that taking back a territory from a colonial master where the populace is rebelling against him is "imperialist"?

Despite Soviet Russia's delight at the embarrassment of a NATO country and by association the US, rebellion against Portuguese rule was minimal in Goa and certainly not all in favor of annexation by India, at least the part not being directly supported by people and goods from the Indian state. And nowadays those same liberated Goans are protesting against the loss of their own traditions and identity due to the mass migration of Indians from other regions.

Face it, the Indian annexation was just another case of want and might makes right, imperialist old style. Doesn't make it necessarily very wrong though, at least only a few people died altogether and the Portuguese presence had long passed it's use expiration date. Could have been better for the Goans if it hadn't happened, as the Portuguese would have given them independence in a decade or so anyway, together with all the other colonies.

[K. A. Pital]

Could have been better for the Goans if it hadn't happened, as the Portuguese would have given them independence in a decade or so anyway, together with all the other colonies.

That depends on whether other nations would accept an independent Goa that easily. India's retake was an almost bloodless scenario which was also, at the time, supported by Goans. On the other hand, East Timor was literally drowned in blood by Indonesia's fascist regime with the aid of US and a blind eye from Australia and the rest of SEA - even though they got independence from Portugal "in a decade or so".

[Colonel Olrik]

I think that it's too pessimistic to assume India would be as bloodthirsty as Suharto's Indonesia. a better example may be Macau, which I think we can safely say is now in a better position that if it had been forcibly annexed by China in the 60s. Portugal left it a prosperous, democratic state instead. You may note that Goa is by far the richest (per capita) and nicest state of India, and that this is no coincidence.

Portugal sometimes have a bad rep about its colonies that it doesn't fully deserve. Angola was one of or the richest and most developed country in Africa in the beginning of the 70s, the 30 years civil war that followed independence destroyed everything. To a smaller extent, the same can be same about Mozambique. Guine was truly a fuckup, and as you said Timor was a victim of Indonesia and the Cold War.

[K. A. Pital]

You may note that Goa is by far the richest (per capita) and nicest state of India, and that this is no coincidence.

Primary income is tourism; in a perverse way, yes, you can say that this is because of the colonial architecture and forced westernization - which are usually a staple of colonial enclaves - so it gets more tourists. Macau is a Chinese Las Vegas and a capital transit point much like HK, so its wealth has certainly a lot to do with China being next-door and capital transit in and out of China already being there in the 1990s. It is not a state: Chinese SARs aren't proper sovereign nations.

Angola was one of or the richest and most developed country in Africa in the beginning of the 70s, the 30 years civil war that followed independence destroyed everything. To a smaller extent, the same can be same about Mozambique.

Even though I take a dim view of postcolonial power, I can't blame Mozmbique for the shenanigans of Rhodesia and South Africa.

[Colonel Olrik]

You may note that Goa is by far the richest (per capita) and nicest state of India, and that this is no coincidence.

Primary income is tourism; in a perverse way, yes, you can say that this is because of the colonial architecture and forced westernization - which are usually a staple of colonial enclaves - so it gets more tourists.

Why yes, unlike India, that remained through the centuries independent, right? At least you can admit that the Portuguese built nicer cities than the British. And infrastructure, medical schools, etc. Goa was not left a barren wasteland after years of exploration, unlike some other examples of colonialism. We can also talk about the Islamic invasion of the Iberian peninsula while aknowledging that the rights of the indigenous Christians were to a certain extent protected, and that the new rulers brought a lot of innovations to the territory. It could have been much worse. That colonialism is morally wrong and belongs solidly in the past goes without saying.

Angola was one of or the richest and most developed country in Africa in the beginning of the 70s, the 30 years civil war that followed independence destroyed everything. To a smaller extent, the same can be same about Mozambique.

Even though I take a dim view of postcolonial power, I can't blame Mozmbique for the shenanigans of Rhodesia and South Africa.

Agreed.

[K. A. Pital]

At least you can admit that the Portuguese built nicer cities than the British. And infrastructure, medical schools, etc. Goa was not left a barren wasteland after years of exploration, unlike some other examples of colonialism.

Granted - Portugal was practicing a more benigh form of imperialism in India and some other places, and as I see it, that's fine (as in "find a European power that was not practicing some form of colonialism"), at least they weren't like Britain in India or Belgium in the Congo.

It could have been much worse.

And there's no question about that either - I am fundamentally opposed to imperialism, but of course if we'd be choosing between Britain or France, or even the United States, I'd probably say Portugal's uncanny empire was the best bet to come out of the situation better than others. Portugal's African territories just had extremely poor luck after decolonization, and truth be told without US meddling in Indonesia it is very likely that East Timor wouldn't have happened (although who knows what would happen in Indonesia proper after the collapse of NASAKOM). So this is hardly Portugal's fault.

[Starglider]

We citizens of the industrialized world. Prevent means to act even against people who are like, geopolitical allies.

That is hopelessly vauge. Most people do not and will not care about two random groups of foreigners on the other side of the world arguing about border strips and tiny islands. Even if they did, such sentiment is only politically useful to autocracies who want an excuse to start a war (as demonstrated by the Falklands). Unless you give specific actions, why they will be effective, where you will get support, how that will cause politicians to act, why those actions will solve the real problems, then this is just the standard far-left delusional ranting.

[K. A. Pital]

That is hopelessly vauge. Most people do not and will not care about two random groups of foreigners on the other side of the world arguing about border strips and tiny islands. Even if they did, such sentiment is only politically useful to autocracies who want an excuse to start a war (as demonstrated by the Falklands). Unless you give specific actions, why they will be effective, where you will get support, how that will cause politicians to act, why those actions will solve the real problems, then this is just the standard far-left delusional ranting.

I am terribly sorry, but I am not in a position of power to actually introduce necessary measures at a national level, much less at the UN. Of course, I can organized a grassroots group but I'm sure smarmy assholes like you would then shout "Delusional lefty idiots protesting ethnic cleansing in Nowheristan again! What a bunch of fools, realpolitik needs bloodgrease to function" and that'd be it, since we'd gather like, ten people or so. But of course, your brilliant solution to Do Nothing and let Important People make all decisions is superior. They care so much about ethnic cleansing and territorial feuds! And they're always so impartial... not.