The OotS Thread III

[lance]

The fighter's BAB is completely canceled out by the sorcerer's. Assuming he's keeping his levels in the three classes about equal, it averages out the same. His caster level will also completely suck, being 1/3 his character level rather than equal to it. And he explicitly chose spells that were also on the bard list. The only real advantage it nets him is fighter bonus feats, and that's more than canceled out by the fact he's unable to use one of the fighter's larger assets, armor proficiency. Unlike bards, sorcerers don't get free casting in light armor.

If Nale keeps to using verbal only spells the armor isn't an issue, the BAB isn't that big of deal if he used spells to buff, and the lack of skill points is the same. You don't need jump or climb when you can fly.

How ever things like spell levels being equal is actually a bonus as they get several spells spell levels earlier than a sorcerer/wizard.

[CaptainChewbacca]

[OOTS #913 Up](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)!

So... THAT happened

[Irbis]

The fighter's BAB is completely canceled out by the sorcerer's. Assuming he's keeping his levels in the three classes about equal, it averages out the same. His caster level will also completely suck, being 1/3 his character level rather than equal to it. And he explicitly chose spells that were also on the bard list. The only real advantage it nets him is fighter bonus feats, and that's more than canceled out by the fact he's unable to use one of the fighter's larger assets, armor proficiency. Unlike bards, sorcerers don't get free casting in light armor.

To prove my point:

Bard 12:

BAB +9/+4, Saves +4/+8/+8, Bardic Lore & Song buffs. Simple weapon proficiency. Spells per day 14, up to level 4th.

Fighter 3 / Rogue 3 / Sorc 6 (6 because of spells he knows):

BAB +8/+3, Saves +6/+6/+7, Trapfinding, Evasion, Sneak attack +2d6, Trap sense, 2x Bonus Feat, Familiar. Martial weapon proficiency. Spells per day 20, up to level 3rd.

All in all, numbers are practically equal, but Bard needs to waste action on his song buffs, while the other build can bridge any deficiencies with bonus feats, has abilities that can be used with attack actions, has superior weapon choice, more spells, including buffs Bard lack, which he can cast much more liberally.

Also of note, progressing combo build raises BAB/Saves/special abilities much more often than single Bard class, a bit of optimizing and it's easily equal or better.

Light armor made of Mithral can have 0 to 5% chance of spell failure, so yes, he does get free casting for peanuts in extra gold.

Bards are pretty much the Aquaman of D&D. A few bad portrayals made most people assume that they are goofy and ineffective, when they are actually much more powerful than everyone gives them credit for.

As I said - they can be powerful, but you really need at lest 2-3 (better 5-6) extra books for it. Bard class is something requiring extra optimization to shine, someone like Elan will ruin it easily.

Although we don't know just how effective that level of Dashing Swordsman makes him...

Well, thing is, seeing he stopped advancing it, DS likely doesn't advance bardic songs and spells. That is, makes greatest asset of the class, a bit weak already, weaker. What he did get in return? Slightly changed Weapon Finesse and immunity to broken glass?

As soon as you get into mid-levels, caster level becomes immensely important for overcoming spell resistance - Nale has basically no chance at all to do that.

One, Sorcerer spells have higher DCs. Two, creatures with SR seem to be rare in OotS world (V is surprised each time Drittzi does it). Three, Nale can take feat that raises your caster level by +4 (Practiced Spellcaster). Elan can't.

Not to mention that the Bard-spell list does most of the important stuff - Buffing&Debuffing - almost as well as Sorcerers/Wizards, especially if you stick to Core-spells. Bards aren't as good at it because their spellcasting progresses slower, but so does Nales because of his multiclassing.

Nale can grab any scroll, including things like Wish, Gate, or Wail of the Banshee, and just cast them. Elan, nope. Wizard spell list access is really powerful.

Oh, and it doesn't even grant more skill points - a Bard gets 6 per level, while both Fighters and Sorcerers only get 2, while a Rogue gets 8.

Except, in Elan's case it's 3-4, as he mentioned he takes most of skills at cross class

[Grumman]

[OOTS #913 Up](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)!

So... THAT happened

I thought you were telling us the next comic was up, and was immensely entertained by the idea that Tarquin stabbed Nale, turned to Elan and said, "Now, if you need transportation..."

[Rogue 9]

The fighter's BAB is completely canceled out by the sorcerer's. Assuming he's keeping his levels in the three classes about equal, it averages out the same. His caster level will also completely suck, being 1/3 his character level rather than equal to it. And he explicitly chose spells that were also on the bard list. The only real advantage it nets him is fighter bonus feats, and that's more than canceled out by the fact he's unable to use one of the fighter's larger assets, armor proficiency. Unlike bards, sorcerers don't get free casting in light armor.

To prove my point:

Bard 12:

BAB +9/+4, Saves +4/+8/+8, Bardic Lore & Song buffs. Simple weapon proficiency. Spells per day 14, up to level 4th.

Fighter 3 / Rogue 3 / Sorc 6 (6 because of spells he knows):

BAB +8/+3, Saves +6/+6/+7, Trapfinding, Evasion, Sneak attack +2d6, Trap sense, 2x Bonus Feat, Familiar. Martial weapon proficiency. Spells per day 20, up to level 3rd.

All in all, numbers are practically equal, but Bard needs to waste action on his song buffs, while the other build can bridge any deficiencies with bonus feats, has abilities that can be used with attack actions, has superior weapon choice, more spells, including buffs Bard lack, which he can cast much more liberally.

Also of note, progressing combo build raises BAB/Saves/special abilities much more often than single Bard class, a bit of optimizing and it's easily equal or better.

Light armor made of Mithral can have 0 to 5% chance of spell failure, so yes, he does get free casting for peanuts in extra gold.

The bard's caster level in your hypothetical is double that of the gish. His spells will be higher duration, longer ranged, have far higher CL-dependent variables, and probably have a higher save DC (after all, he's not as crazily multiple ability dependent and can therefore afford higher Charisma). Also, to quote an expert on the issue, "fighter level 3 dumb level. thog not take."

[Serafina]

No, Sorcerer-Spells do not have higher DCs in this case. DCs are dependent on spell level and casting stat - the former is lower for the Gish-Build, and the latter should be about equal.
If you take a pure Sorcerer vs a pure Bard, sure, the DC will be higher on account of the Sorcerers spell levels being higher. In this case, not so much.

Evasion is certainly useful. Trapfinding isn't on account of lack of skill points. Sneak attack is worse than Bardic Music (which you can just keep running even in core-only) on account of being highly conditional.


Also, there's no evidence that Elan is spending most of his skill points on cross-class skills. He has some ranks in riding and such, sure, but thats not the same as maxing out CC-skills or such.

[Crazedwraith]

Also, there's no evidence that Elan is spending most of his skill points on cross-class skills. He has some ranks in riding and such, sure, but thats not the same as maxing out CC-skills or such.

Has he been shown to have any cross class beside Ride? *knows little and less about D&D*

Plus despite him being all like 'Mummy said cross-class ranks were cool', he had Ride because he was Paladin's Herald and it was thus practical for him and his nice ass. (named Dandelion!)

[Crazedwraith]

914

and once again, more 'oh Tarquin is much cooler than Nale it shouldn't matter' shit.

[Ralin]

914

and once again, more 'oh Tarquin is much cooler than Nale it shouldn't matter' shit.

Did you miss the less than subtle implication that Tarquin miscalculated and that this is going to come back to bite him in the ass?

I mean, it would be one thing if Tarquin had offed Nale early on in this arc, but he's been an established and widely loved villain for...how long now? Two years in real-life? So it's not like he just swooped in and killed Nale to establish how omgwtf badass he is.

[Dass.Kapital]

Yah...the whole "Hell hath no fury such as a woman scorned." Would seem to be writ very large on/in that last panel.

[Serafina]

Yep, Tarquin obviously forgot about Sabine, or didn't understand the relationship between her and Nale.
And yes, he's obviously going to pay for that.

[Simon_Jester]

I get the impression that Sabine went completely berserk out after the "eye for an eye" bit, not just Tarquin's killing Nale, although I am obviously not sure.

Couldn't blame her if it were true; resurrection being fairly common. I don't know how or if Sabine would pursue a relationship with a petitioner to... whichever evil afterlife Elan goes to; my impression is that he is chaotic or neutral evil.

Trivial side note: is that blood coming out of the wreckage of the demonic TV?

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah. it was said to be a 'blood plasma' tv in a previous strip.

[Rogue 9]

No, Sorcerer-Spells do not have higher DCs in this case. DCs are dependent on spell level and casting stat - the former is lower for the Gish-Build, and the latter should be about equal.
If you take a pure Sorcerer vs a pure Bard, sure, the DC will be higher on account of the Sorcerers spell levels being higher. In this case, not so much.

That's... what I said.

Yep, Tarquin obviously forgot about Sabine, or didn't understand the relationship between her and Nale.
And yes, he's obviously going to pay for that.

You're assuming Sabine has the capability to make him pay for that. I'm pretty certain she doesn't.

[Civil War Man]

The bard's caster level in your hypothetical is double that of the gish. His spells will be higher duration, longer ranged, have far higher CL-dependent variables, and probably have a higher save DC (after all, he's not as crazily multiple ability dependent and can therefore afford higher Charisma). Also, to quote an expert on the issue, "fighter level 3 dumb level. thog not take."

For an example of this, there's the mainstay of low level crowd control, Charm Person. A level 1 spell in both the Bard and the Wizard spell list.

It's the same level spell in both lists, so the saves will be the same assuming they have the same Charisma bonus. They are both likely to have a high Charisma, but the Bard will have an easier time doing it since it has more leeway than the Gish for dumping other attributes. I mean, an optimized Bard is pretty much a pile of Charisma and Intelligence, and the second can go in a pinch. Everything else is pretty much for avoiding encumbrance and boosting saves and hp. The Gish also needs Charisma, but also needs the Intelligence more to keep up in skill points, plus Dexterity to make proper use of the Rogue tricks, plus a bit of extra strength to justify taking the levels in Fighter.

Anyway, back to Charm Person. Range is 25 ft + 5ft/2 levels. For the level 12 Bard, that's 55 feet. For the Gish with only six levels of Sorcerer, that's 40 feet.

Duration is 1 hour/level. So 12 hours for Bard but 6 for Gish.

The spell has Verbal and Somatic components. The Bard can spend 100 gold on a chain shirt and cast it all day without hindrance. The Gish, on the other hand, is prone to Arcane Spell failure unless he goes without armor entirely. A Gish wearing that same chain shirt has a 1 in 5 chance of his Charm fizzling, unless he spends an extra 1,000 gold to make it Mithral chain, at which point it's only a 1 in 10 chance. If he needs to wear armor, he'd have to buy a set of Mithral leather armor (which I'm pretty sure is not a thing) for 1010 gold have the same chance of the spell failing as the Bard in a 100 gold shirt.

So that Gish build gets a few bonus feats and rogue tricks in exchange for less powerful versions of the same spells and having to spend more for equipment to avoid spell failure.

[Ralin]

You're assuming Sabine has the capability to make him pay for that. I'm pretty certain she doesn't.

In terms of mechanical ability to fuck him up? No. In terms of having a decent chance of being in the right place at the right time and having access to information Tarquin doesn't? Possibly.

[Serafina]

On her own? No, but i figure she has some pull with the Fiends (since she told them about the gates), especially if it further suits their plans.

[Imperial Overlord]

You're assuming Sabine has the capability to make him pay for that. I'm pretty certain she doesn't.

Too much dungeon crawling has rotted your brains. There are other ways, like manipulation, which just totally happens to be her bag. Her inability to personally win in a one on one fight doesn't make her harmless.

[Rogue 9]

You're assuming Sabine has the capability to make him pay for that. I'm pretty certain she doesn't.

Too much dungeon crawling has rotted your brains. There are other ways, like manipulation, which just totally happens to be her bag. Her inability to personally win in a one on one fight doesn't make her harmless.

She has also historically failed miserably at that. Her attempt to manipulate Roy ended up helping him, Miko snapped her neck for her troubles, her second attempt to manipulate Roy got her thrown out of a second story window, and the Cliffport PD were all low-level mooks and she didn't give them more than a three word sentence to work with. I believe she'll try, but if she succeeds it will be with a lot of help.

[Crazedwraith]

Given the Linear guild's record at the moment. I expect her to try and then be random stabbed in the back by one of Tarquin's associates and killed off in one panel. Or off panel. That could be cool, right?

[Rogue 9]

Given the Linear guild's record at the moment. I expect her to try and then be random stabbed in the back by one of Tarquin's associates and killed off in one panel. Or off panel. That could be cool, right?

I doubt that very much. She clearly still has a role to play as cat's paw of the IFCC.

[Imperial Overlord]

She has also historically failed miserably at that. Her attempt to manipulate Roy ended up helping him, Miko snapped her neck for her troubles, her second attempt to manipulate Roy got her thrown out of a second story window, and the Cliffport PD were all low-level mooks and she didn't give them more than a three word sentence to work with. I believe she'll try, but if she succeeds it will be with a lot of help.

1) Roy and Miko were very hard targets to manipulate when they already know the would be manipulator is evil. Feeding information to Xykon is much, much easier.

2) It's good for her that she works for three brutally powerful fiends that can give her a lot of help, isn't it?

[Simon_Jester]

914

and once again, more 'oh Tarquin is much cooler than Nale it shouldn't matter' shit.

Well, Tarquin believes that he is much cooler than Nale, but then Tarquin is a bloodyhanded tyrant who's been carving a trail of butchery across most of a continent for decades. He's probably a bit biased.

I don't think the author actually agrees with that- but he's been leading up to this for a while. We've been expecting a bloody confrontation between Nale and Tarquin's respective adventuring parties for something like sixty or seventy strips, for crying out loud. Nale is too arrogant, aggressive, and treacherous to not turn on people he hates, and he hates a lot of people. Only now he's doing it to a group of people at higher level than he is, and that is not always a survivable mistake.

[Alkaloid]

Given the Linear guild's record at the moment. I expect her to try and then be random stabbed in the back by one of Tarquin's associates and killed off in one panel. Or off panel. That could be cool, right?

Well if she goes at him directly, yes, but she won't because she's repeatedly been shown to not be that stupid and not be huge into direct confrontation without thinking she has the upper hand anyway. There's no way she could think that.

It's good for her that she works for three brutally powerful fiends that can give her a lot of help, isn't it?

I doubt the fiends will play ball to help her with her personal vendetta, and they won't bother with Tarquin too much because as dangerous as he could be long term he seems disinclined to take a direct hand in the issue with the portals so provoking him is an unnecessary risk. She does, however, have Vs soul close to hand and a passing acquaintance with a nearby group of adventures who could probably be persuaded to help with her plan in exchange for getting it back. Roys proved increasingly willing to make personal moral compromises if it will further his mission, which could be where his arc ends up. Or she could straight up possess Vs body and claim she got lost for a bit.

Well, Tarquin believes that he is much cooler than Nale, but then Tarquin is a bloodyhanded tyrant who's been carving a trail of butchery across most of a continent for decades. He's probably a bit biased.

To be fair, he is much cooler than Nale. He just happens to be a bloodyhanded and creatively sadistic tyrant who's carved a trail of butchery across most of a continent for decades as well.

[Gaidin]

I doubt the fiends will play ball to help her with her personal vendetta, and they won't bother with Tarquin too much because as dangerous as he could be long term he seems disinclined to take a direct hand in the issue with the portals so provoking him is an unnecessary risk. She does, however, have Vs soul close to hand and a passing acquaintance with a nearby group of adventures who could probably be persuaded to help with her plan in exchange for getting it back. Roys proved increasingly willing to make personal moral compromises if it will further his mission, which could be where his arc ends up. Or she could straight up possess Vs body and claim she got lost for a bit.

Considering the demons would view that as a gross violation of their contract and are in fact protecting V's body right now, I find her doing that a bit of a stretch.