Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by Thanas »

I disagree with much the author says, mainly because I do not think the US is about to bomb its own people. However, some of these actions do make the position of the US hypocritical.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -every-law
You could almost pity these people. For 67 years successive US governments have resisted calls to reform the UN security council. They've defended a system which grants five nations a veto over world affairs, reducing all others to impotent spectators. They have abused the powers and trust with which they have been vested. They have collaborated with the other four permanent members (the UK, Russia, China and France) in a colonial carve-up, through which these nations can pursue their own corrupt interests at the expense of peace and global justice.

Eighty-three times the US has exercised its veto. On 42 of these occasions it has done so to prevent Israel's treatment of the Palestinians being censured. On the last occasion, 130 nations supported the resolution but Barack Obama spiked it. Though veto powers have been used less often since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the US has exercised them 14 times in the interim (in 13 cases to shield Israel), while Russia has used them nine times. Increasingly the permanent members have used the threat of a veto to prevent a resolution being discussed. They have bullied the rest of the world into silence.

Through this tyrannical dispensation – created at a time when other nations were either broken or voiceless – the great warmongers of the past 60 years remain responsible for global peace. The biggest weapons traders are tasked with global disarmament. Those who trample international law control the administration of justice.

But now, as the veto powers of two permanent members (Russia and China) obstruct its attempt to pour petrol on another Middle Eastern fire, the US suddenly decides that the system is illegitimate. Obama says: "If we end up using the UN security council not as a means of enforcing international norms and international law, but rather as a barrier … then I think people rightly are going to be pretty skeptical about the system." Well, yes.

Never have Obama or his predecessors attempted a serious reform of this system. Never have they sought to replace a corrupt global oligarchy with a democratic body. Never do they lament this injustice – until they object to the outcome. The same goes for every aspect of global governance.

Obama warned last week that Syria's use of poisoned gas "threatens to unravel the international norm against chemical weapons embraced by 189 nations". Unravelling the international norm is the US president's job.

In 1997 the US agreed to decommission the 31,000 tonnes of sarin, VX, mustard gas and other agents it possessed within 10 years. In 2007 it requested the maximum extension of the deadline permitted by the Chemical Weapons Convention – five years. Again it failed to keep its promise, and in 2012 it claimed they would be gone by 2021. Russia yesterday urged Syria to place its chemical weapons under international control. Perhaps it should press the US to do the same.

In 1998 the Clinton administration pushed a law through Congress which forbade international weapons inspectors from taking samples of chemicals in the US and allowed the president to refuse unannounced inspections. In 2002 the Bush government forced the sacking of José Maurício Bustani, the director general of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. He had committed two unforgiveable crimes: seeking a rigorous inspection of US facilities; and pressing Saddam Hussein to sign the Chemical Weapons Convention, to help prevent the war George Bush was itching to wage.

The US used millions of gallons of chemical weapons in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. It also used them during its destruction of Falluja in 2004, then lied about it. The Reagan government helped Saddam Hussein to wage war with Iran in the 1980s while aware that he was using nerve and mustard gas. (The Bush administration then cited this deployment as an excuse to attack Iraq, 15 years later).

Smallpox has been eliminated from the human population, but two nations – the US and Russia – insist on keeping the pathogen in cold storage. They claim their purpose is to develop defences against possible biological weapons attack, but most experts in the field consider this to be nonsense. While raising concerns about each other's possession of the disease, they have worked together to bludgeon the other members of the World Health Organisation, which have pressed them to destroy their stocks.

In 2001 the New York Times reported that, without either Congressional oversight or a declaration to the Biological Weapons Convention, "the Pentagon has built a germ factory that could make enough lethal microbes to wipe out entire cities". The Pentagon claimed the purpose was defensive but, developed in contravention of international law, it didn't look good. The Bush government also sought to destroy the Biological Weapons Convention as an effective instrument by scuttling negotiations over the verification protocol required to make it work.

Looming over all this is the great unmentionable: the cover the US provides for Israel's weapons of mass destruction. It's not just that Israel – which refuses to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention – has used white phosphorus as a weapon in Gaza (when deployed against people, phosphorus meets the convention's definition of "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm").

It's also that, as the Washington Post points out: "Syria's chemical weapons stockpile results from a never-acknowledged gentleman's agreement in the Middle East that as long as Israel had nuclear weapons, Syria's pursuit of chemical weapons would not attract much public acknowledgement or criticism." Israel has developed its nuclear arsenal in defiance of the non-proliferation treaty, and the US supports it in defiance of its own law, which forbids the disbursement of aid to a country with unauthorised weapons of mass destruction.

As for the norms of international law, let's remind ourselves where the US stands. It remains outside the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, after declaring its citizens immune from prosecution. The crime of aggression it committed in Iraq – defined by the Nuremberg tribunal as "the supreme international crime" – goes not just unpunished but also unmentioned by anyone in government. The same applies to most of the subsidiary war crimes US troops committed during the invasion and occupation. Guantánamo Bay raises a finger to any notions of justice between nations.

None of this is to exonerate Bashar al-Assad's government – or its opponents – of a long series of hideous crimes, including the use of chemical weapons. Nor is it to suggest that there is an easy answer to the horrors in Syria.

But Obama's failure to be honest about his nation's record of destroying international norms and undermining international law, his myth-making about the role of the US in world affairs, and his one-sided interventions in the Middle East, all render the crisis in Syria even harder to resolve. Until there is some candour about past crimes and current injustices, until there is an effort to address the inequalities over which the US presides, everything it attempts – even if it doesn't involve guns and bombs – will stoke the cynicism and anger the president says he wants to quench.

During his first inauguration speech Barack Obama promised to "set aside childish things". We all knew what he meant. He hasn't done it.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Ah yes the US broke its promise to destroy a bunch of weapons which are physically impossible to use because it insisted on doing so in an environmentally responsible manner which is really time consuming, and absurdly expensive, 1.5 billion a year for a long time expensive. The stuff is in such bad condition it cannot be moved any distance, a destruction facility had to be built at every single depot. The only usable US chemical weapons (as in ones not actually from the 1950s) were removed from Germany and destroyed promptly at the end of the Cold War by burning them at the Johnston Atoll, a method and location which was judged unsound for further use. Meanwhile the UK got rid of its own arsenal by throwing it entirely into the ocean, and Russia is even more behind schedule on its own destruction of entirely usable agents, some 20,000 tons of them. Of course the article makes no mention of any of this because it would sort of massively throw a monkey wrench in its narrative of idiotic stupidly.

I love the smallpox jab too, yes, totally we should just assume that its totally impossible that someone might have a vile of the shit someone in someones attic that might cause a breakout later, and totally rid ourselves of any vaccine capability. Great plan. Of course this is the same paper that has over and over again insisted such things as 'all experts agree the Typhoon is useless' ect ad nausa, so they are totally 100% credible on what 'experts' think about everything military.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by Zwinmar »

the convention's definition of "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm"
Wow, didn't realize it was that ambiguous. By that definition gunpowder is a chemical weapon (it is but through different processes). If so, anything beyond bow and arrow is illegal, and even then I am sure some chemical process goes on in the manufacture, or release of energy.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Ah yes the US broke its promise to destroy a bunch of weapons which are physically impossible to use because it insisted on doing so in an environmentally responsible manner which is really time consuming, and absurdly expensive, 1.5 billion a year for a long time expensive. The stuff is in such bad condition it cannot be moved any distance, a destruction facility had to be built at every single depot. The only usable US chemical weapons (as in ones not actually from the 1950s) were removed from Germany and destroyed promptly at the end of the Cold War by burning them at the Johnston Atoll, a method and location which was judged unsound for further use. Meanwhile the UK got rid of its own arsenal by throwing it entirely into the ocean, and Russia is even more behind schedule on its own destruction of entirely usable agents, some 20,000 tons of them. Of course the article makes no mention of any of this because it would sort of massively throw a monkey wrench in its narrative of idiotic stupidly.
That clears up a lot. What about the biological things though?
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Ah yes the US broke its promise to destroy a bunch of weapons which are physically impossible to use because it insisted on doing so in an environmentally responsible manner which is really time consuming, and absurdly expensive, 1.5 billion a year for a long time expensive.
Speaking as someone in the US who leaves within easy driving distance of one of the storage depots, I'd rather they safely dispose of that shit than just, oh, throw it in a landfill or risk killing off some of the neighbors.

I won't touch the long-simmering dispute on whether or not defoliants are in the same category as sarin and mustard gas, but the stuff used in Vietnam was defoliant and napalm, not what was recently used in Syria. Really, though, it's all horrible.
I love the smallpox jab too, yes, totally we should just assume that its totally impossible that someone might have a vile of the shit someone in someones attic that might cause a breakout later, and totally rid ourselves of any vaccine capability. Great plan.
[nitpick] Smallpox vaccine is not and never has been made from smallpox. It's make from cowpox, a.k.a. vaccinia from which the word "vaccine" is derived. Even more nitpicky, smallpox vaccine is not made from cowpox, it IS cowpox. It's the deliberate giving of one disease to provide immunity to another. [/nitpick]

One thing such screeds invariably leave out is that the US and Russia have the last known vials of smallpox. It's not inconceivable that someone back in the late 1960's or early 1970's stashed some away somewhere. Now, smallpox only remains viable about two years at room temperature, so it would need to be stored in a deep freeze to still be viable but that sort of technology is widespread. It's possible someone else, somewhere, has some. There's also the research angle, but I'm not aware of anyone doing research on it at this time other than an attempt to map the genome of all known variants of the virus. It's certainly rated as a top biohazard, very few facilities in the world would have the capability to safely handle it. Indeed, the UK got rid of the last of theirs after a lab accident killed a couple people.
Thanas wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Ah yes the US broke its promise to destroy a bunch of weapons which are physically impossible to use because it insisted on doing so in an environmentally responsible manner which is really time consuming, and absurdly expensive, 1.5 billion a year for a long time expensive....
That clears up a lot. What about the biological things though?
The US does a lot of research on various diseases like anthrax for purposes of treatment and prevention, as it is a significant agricultural scourge world wide, yet anthrax is also classed as potential bioweapon. Is that a bad thing or a good thing? You also can't just dump anthrax out in the trash, the spores are very enduring and need special equipment to truly destroy.

Rinse and repeat for a lot of other things.

Although I think there is a valid argument for destroying the last of the smallpox. The US is mapping the genome in hopes that that might suffice for research purposes rather than needing to work with live virus. There is also a contingent questioning if we should deliberately cause the extinction of a species, even a killer like smallpox.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Thanas wrote: That clears up a lot. What about the biological things though?
The US unilaterally destroyed all biological weapons and research and delivery systems in the Nixon administration. Nobody except brain dead retards on the internet seriously think otherwise. The US also funded cleaned up incredibly insane Russian bioweapons production and research sites in which they literally threw anthrax by the pound into unlined dirt holes during the 1990s, just as it provided large amounts of money to secure Russian chemical and nuclear weapons which were barely even being guarded by people, let alone secured by any form of safeguarded system to prevent theft. Some of the storage facilities did not even have the gates guarded, and had the nerve gas in wooden buildings. The Soviets actually killed a significant number of there people with bioweapons leaks in the 1980s, then blamed it on 'bad meat'. They also are known to have multiple types of non traditional nerve agent which they have still refused to allow anyone to look at (and thus develop antidotes against). The Guardian is spewing a colossal pile of shit, as always.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Article wrote:It also used them during its destruction of Falluja in 2004, then lied about it.
What is this referring to?
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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The Guardian is one of those idiot boxes in love with the idea that white phosphorous is a 'chemical weapon', but apparently setting a house on fire with a match, or using HC smoke (which actually is toxic to breath in and still used by the British military and everyone else who abandon WP) or TNT or RDX based explosives ect... are not.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Zwinmar wrote:
the convention's definition of "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm"
Wow, didn't realize it was that ambiguous. By that definition gunpowder is a chemical weapon (it is but through different processes). If so, anything beyond bow and arrow is illegal, and even then I am sure some chemical process goes on in the manufacture, or release of energy.
That's not how I interpret the definition.

To be classed as a chemical weapon the chemical interaction with the life processes is what causes death or incapacitation.
The Gun Powder does not interact with life processes on a chemical level, it only reacts with the air (or whatever oxydizer the modern equivalent uses).
The damage caused by gun powder is either through heat or kinetic energy.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Objecting to the use of white phosphorous as an incendiary on the basis that phosphorous is poisonous is like objecting to the use of muskets on the basis that lead is poisonous.


One could of course make a much simpler point although one that would give far worse grounds to compare the US to Syria: it's surely the killing of innocent people that is bad or not, and should be stopped or not, rather than the particular method used to do so.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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energiewende wrote:One could of course make a much simpler point although one that would give far worse grounds to compare the US to Syria: it's surely the killing of innocent people that is bad or not, and should be stopped or not, rather than the particular method used to do so.
America gave chemical weapons to Saddam and bombed Indochina to such a severe extent the consequences of toxic poisoning are still there, just like thousands of bombs which need to be removed whenever people build a long railway somewhere in the peninsula. Nobody in their right mind would assume America to give a rats ass about the method of killing people. Pleasing Saudite and Qatar aristocrats with another demonstration of force is a more probable cause than nonexistent humanitarian concerns - remember America did not give a shit about Rwanda, where a France-backed ethnic group killed another group over old grudges. That was done with machetes, though.

The deliberation now means the US is no longer sure a war is really in its best interests. That is all.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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I'd think the US deciding not to go to war for a change would be a welcome change for many.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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I think it is reasonable to assume that people of America do not want a war (in fact, opinion polls are heavily against it, to an even greater extent than during Iraq). I said America might do it to show off right before their Middle Eastern allies (ugly as they are), which is certainly not in the interests of the Americans themselves.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Sea Skimmer wrote:The Guardian is one of those idiot boxes
Yeah, it's one of these "idiot boxes" that still care about such stupid things as journalists integrity, writing true articles inconvenient for big businesses and governments, one of last few newspapers you can trust to not deliver dumbed down pro-business no-news trash :roll:

Want proof? They were the first to write about PRISM, willing to talk with Wikileaks to publish articles about crimes in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, or war crimes in Middle East, or expose the whole wire-tapping and job killing scandals in UK. Really, I thought you were above the opinion of mad US right-wingers, SS.

Why they called Fallujah bombing chemical weapon usage? It was reaction to US lies they feed everyone for decades, claiming Agent Orange was "just" defoliant (and not in fact extremely toxic dioxin-based chemical weapon that left health of million+ impaired, million that never saw one broken cent of compensation on idiotic basis it was 'accidental'^ because indiscriminate spraying obviously doesn't target humans :roll: ). I prefer journalist that will call agent fulfilling whole definition of chemical weapon to be a chemical weapon, instead of copying PR bites and saying WP is 'napalm with completely accidental, non-human targeting side effect of producing extremely corrosive* phosphorus pentoxide smoke, honest!', thank you very much.

^Would anyone buy Assad's claims sarin was not targeting rebels, it was just deratization agent that only accidentally affected any humans? Because that's the whole basis of AO defence, it was 'just' defoliant that never intentionally targeted humans, despite whole goal of its usage was to destroy Vietnam's countryside and crops to force villagers to flee to the cities...

*only slightly safer than mustard gas in contact with skin/lungs, being qualified just one grade lower on NFPA scale.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Good journalism does not excuse bad journalism. The Guardian is talking out of its ass in regards to the US chemical weapons history and policy. But I guess they are A-OK with the UK military just dumping chemicals weapons in the ocean as a disposal method. Gotta harp on the US for safe disposal methods that took time and effort. Lets call Depleted Uranium a chemical weapon. Even though its a fucking heavy metal and effectively identical to lead in danger level.

Willie Pete is not considered a chemical weapon by any government and not covered in any chemical weapon treaty. Harping on WP is a fucking publicity stunt.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Irbis wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:The Guardian is one of those idiot boxes
Yeah, it's one of these "idiot boxes" that still care about such stupid things as journalists integrity, writing true articles inconvenient for big businesses and governments, one of last few newspapers you can trust to not deliver dumbed down pro-business no-news trash :roll:

Want proof? They were the first to write about PRISM, willing to talk with Wikileaks to publish articles about crimes in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, or war crimes in Middle East, or expose the whole wire-tapping and job killing scandals in UK. Really, I thought you were above the opinion of mad US right-wingers, SS.
Skimmer's opinions tend to be tightly military-focused. If the Guardian reveals great ignorance of military affairs, then on SDN we should hardly be shocked if Skimmer calls them idiotic.
Why they called Fallujah bombing chemical weapon usage? It was reaction to US lies they feed everyone for decades, claiming Agent Orange was "just" defoliant (and not in fact extremely toxic dioxin-based chemical weapon that left health of million+ impaired, million that never saw one broken cent of compensation on idiotic basis it was 'accidental'^ because indiscriminate spraying obviously doesn't target humans :roll: ). I prefer journalist that will call agent fulfilling whole definition of chemical weapon to be a chemical weapon, instead of copying PR bites and saying WP is 'napalm with completely accidental, non-human targeting side effect of producing extremely corrosive* phosphorus pentoxide smoke, honest!', thank you very much.
What is under dispute here is the facts about white phosphorus. You seem to be implying that Skimmer's argument goes "the US uses white phosphorus, the Guardian calls it a chemical weapon, the US is always right, therefore the Guardian is idiotic."

It sounds more to me like "The Guardian calls white phosphorus a chemical weapon, which is absurd because of XYZ, plus they are wrong and off-base when alleging ABC and IJK, therefore they don't know what the hell they're talking about on the overall subject of the US military and chemical weapons."

It is entirely possible that the Guardian has good overall journalistic integrity, but hires ignorant people to comment on military affairs, or occasionally swallows a story that is ignorant about military affairs because it has an anti-US conclusion, without doing a careful fact check.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by energiewende »

Guardian doesn't have any more journalistic integrity than the rest; they knee-jerk oppose US, capitalism, defence, etc. without thought or understanding. Sometimes these things really produce bad outcomes and the Guardian coverage can be correct, but even a stopped watch is right twice a day.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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^You are an idiot. And if you need me to explain why to you, you are an even bigger one.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by energiewende »

The Guardian's prejudices are more popular here than the opposite prejudices of equivalent right-wing newspaper dross.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

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Okay, then point out how their prejudices colour their reporting with well documented stories that are a matter of fact, not just opinion. Would be good if you could do so with the wikileaks and NSA reporting.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by Alyeska »

I rather respect The Guardian for their reporting. They are guilty of editorializing some times (the Chemical Weapons article was full of that), but their reporting on the NSA wire tapping has been first rate and I have a tremendous amount of respect for their willingness to buck both the US and UK governments on reporting the truth.

I said good reporting does not excuse bad reporting. Bad reporting doesn't invalidate good reporting either. And The Guardian is a first rate news source.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by Nephtys »

There's a lot of ways that article is incredibly poor journalism. Or rather, a ranting editorial disguised as journalism. Here's just a random snippet, ignoring the ranting about the nature of the UN, and deliberately misleading half-numbers given about US involvement for that entire first few paragraphs.
They claim [surviving smallbox samples] purpose is to develop defences against possible biological weapons attack, but most experts in the field consider this to be nonsense.
Just look at that one line for a second, and think about it.

Really, one should not be praising what is literally Reverse Fox News. Yes, breaking a lot on PRISM was a big deal. But that doesn't give you a 'get away with saying anything free card'.
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Highlord Laan
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by Highlord Laan »

Dominus Atheos wrote:
Article wrote:It also used them during its destruction of Falluja in 2004, then lied about it.
What is this referring to?
White Phosphorous and CS gas.
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by Simon_Jester »

Tear gas is pretty indisputably a "chemical weapon" in the most literal sense of the term, but it's also a common nonlethal agent routinely used by police forces. So questioning it seems a bit funny. What, would you be happier if someone threw a hand grenade into a room to clear it than a tear gas canister?
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Thanas
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Re: Obama and the US history of keeping chemical weapons

Post by Thanas »

Nephtys wrote:Really, one should not be praising what is literally Reverse Fox News.
Evidence for them being "reverse fox news"?
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