The OotS Thread III

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Tiriol
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Re: The OotS Thread III

Post by Tiriol »

Irbis wrote:But Tarquin realizes this perfectly. He sees his son being sidekick to Roy, and he knows that makes him a sidequest, something not important to overall picture. By getting rid of Roy, he shifts his son to the spotlight, making Xykon sidequest and himself main target. This gives him what he wants.

Also, to be honest, T. is kinda right. That encounter with Elan did made them both heroes playing first fiddle. What Roy has still to offer story-wise? Some snarkiness? He said to his dad he pees all over the oath and does it only because Xykon is bad, closing that chapter, he might well have been relegated to the status of unimportant sidekick several hundred strips ago, as he spent second last book dead then last book being in prison or background of more important events. Cut out Roy and last 400 strips change little, Elan and Dad drove them forward.
Tarquin may realize it perfectly according to the information he has available. But he clearly operates on incomplete information. Roy has had his character growth already, yes, but with vampire Durkon with him, he may have to grow some more; and he still has his oath to defeat Xykon. If anything Roy's closer to Aragorn than Luke Skywalker by this point. He has had (most of) his own character growth but is arguably still the center of the story. And Tarquin wants to force Elan to become Luke to his Darth Vader; that might and in all probability will backfire spectacularly. Especially since Tarquin operates purely on egoistical ambition, just like his late son Nale, although with more intelligence, panache and long-term planning. But instead of creating some perverse mirror image of the Order of the Stick, he wants to set himself up as a main villain, a dark lord figure for them to fight. But they already have Xykon who is more powerful than Tarquin and much more dangerous in the long run; and then there's Redcloak as well.

Besides, I've always seen the Order of the Stick not as "one protagonist, others merely followers" story; it's more like an actual RPG group where everyone is supposed to the protagonist of their own story. When viewed like that, Tarquin becomes a rail-roading DM's villain when the DM wants to show how badass this new threat is and to focus on one character over the others. I can't see the comic going that way.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Welf wrote:During the last confrontation with the Linear Guild was only part of the team, not the leader. He defeated his evil opposite, but didn't add much to the rest...
V defeated Z on his own, Elan and Haley confronted Nale and Sabine. And finally it was Maltak and T that brought down Nale. Indeed the order did not accomplish much while Roy was away, but it was that time when Elan made the next jump in growing as character. If Roy does again, Elan is forced to take over the lead and become a true hero.[/quote]Perhaps- but my thesis here is that the Order needs Roy to be functional and effective, coordinated and focused. To illustrate this, we can look at the Order's struggles against the Linear Guild. Together, with Roy in charge, the Order can easily inflict serious tactical defeats on the Guild. When they're scattered, it is much harder for them to win. Sure, as individuals they (mostly) can overcome their personal nemeses. But it's bloody and risky.

So I think that in Tarquin's scheming he's making a mistake- he's prioritizing his son's personal growth over the safety of the world. If he wants to off Roy, the logical time to do it would be after they've stopped Xykon, not before.
Irbis wrote:I wouldn't say that. Darth V didn't really changed anything - see strip 646, OotS were reunited by Elan and Haley already. V got "help" from the devils way too late for that, you can even say they did collected payment for virtually nothing :wink:
Hm, good point. What V did accomplish was finding a safe haven for the fleet, and causing Xykon's phylactery to become lost. And, indirectly, allowing Redcloak to pull off the switcheroo on Xykon's phylactery. :D
When Roy was imprisoned by Tarquin, yet again the Order became comparatively directionless, and accomplished very little, until Roy was freed.
On the contrary, when Roy tried to save Elan/Haley, he landed his ass in prison. They not only freed themselves, got valuable plot lead, but were about to bust out Roy too. In fact, Roy was mostly plot device, first as dead body, then prisoner. Elan from strip 1 would do nothing, from last one is very close to being a protagonist, not sidekick.
The valuable plot lead Elan and Haley got had little to do with their own actions and everything to do with Tarquin turning out to be a (temporary) ally.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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917 up!

"Some kind of funnel", heh.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Tarquin's going to go out like a chump. Villains with too much confidence in their own deviousness do not come to dignified ends. Just look at Kubota, Tsukiko, that girl from the Thieves Guild, most of the Linear Guild, and most recently Malak and Nale.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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I gotta say, excellent tactics from Roy considering the situation they are in.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

Post by FaxModem1 »

So, V really needs to get up there, like...now. because Durkon and Roy can take on a whole bunch of them, but I don't think they can keep getting consistent enough rolls to stop a whole army. Can anyone in the party besides Haley do sneak attack, and potentially take out Tarquin, or no?
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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FaxModem1 wrote:So, V really needs to get up there, like...now. because Durkon and Roy can take on a whole bunch of them, but I don't think they can keep getting consistent enough rolls to stop a whole army. Can anyone in the party besides Haley do sneak attack, and potentially take out Tarquin, or no?
None of the others are rogues, and even if they were Haley can't take out Tarquin. They've tried before.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

Post by Simon_Jester »

Honestly, trying to fight Tarquin right now is a losing proposition. He's got two very high level allies, plus a huge horde of minions standing by as arrow fodder. Killing him was enough of a problem when he was completely alone.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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It's about time for V to return to his body, yes.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Well, whatever else is happening, we know that Roy still has great cleavage. :razz:
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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918 up
Spoiler
V returning, and did I see Nale in the dead soul pile?
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Grand Moff Tim wrote:918 up
Spoiler
V returning, and did I see Nale in the dead soul pile?
Spoiler
Where do you think you see him? I can't. There are a couple of blondes but they're not Nale

Which alignment is Lee? Which was Nale?
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Re: The OotS Thread III

Post by Grand Moff Tim »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Grand Moff Tim wrote:918 up
Spoiler
V returning, and did I see Nale in the dead soul pile?
Spoiler
Where do you think you see him? I can't. There are a couple of blondes but they're not Nale

Which alignment is Lee? Which was Nale?
Spoiler
Dunno which is which, and I might have mistook one of the blondes for Nale, my eyesight isn't so good.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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The fiends are Lee, N-something, and Cedric, corresponding to lawful, neutral, and chaotic (of course all of the evil varieties). Lee is a devil and lawful evil. And Nale was lawful evil owing to his whole evil opposite thing with Elan.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

Post by Crazedwraith »

So Nale should be in Lee's big honking in tray of souls?
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Crazedwraith wrote:So Nale should be in Lee's big honking in tray of souls?
Assuming some Duke of Hell didn't get him, yes. :P We know that the IFCC aren't actually running their respective branches of fiendhood, since they're trying to end the Blood War instead of just ordering it done. So some other powerful devil might get Nale.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Rogue 9 wrote:The fiends are Lee, N-something, and Cedric, corresponding to lawful, neutral, and chaotic (of course all of the evil varieties). Lee is a devil and lawful evil. And Nale was lawful evil owing to his whole evil opposite thing with Elan.
The last one is Nero.

Also finally, we're starting to move on from Tarquin. Much as I've enjoyed the guy these last few pages have been a chore.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Rogue 9 wrote: And Nale was lawful evil owing to his whole evil opposite thing with Elan.
That's...arguable. He said he was LE, that doesn't make it true. And to quote Burlew himself:
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Sunken Valley wrote:Even bigger example. Nale. He never seems to do anything Lawful at all. He doesn't have a code. He doesn't follow traditions of law. He would break any code he had if he got his father's empire and his brother's eternal torment. He'd probably backstab Sabine if he had to.
Interesting, that. Don't you think? :wink:
Which seems a hint that he is in fact not LE.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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I figured Nale for CE. Fits with the whole succubus (CE) companion and makes more sense for his role as evil opposite. CE fits CG just as well for that as LE - better in some ways, since after all Nale is going for evil opposite, not total opposite.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Rogue 9 wrote:The fiends are Lee, N-something, and Cedric, corresponding to lawful, neutral, and chaotic (of course all of the evil varieties). Lee is a devil and lawful evil. And Nale was lawful evil owing to his whole evil opposite thing with Elan.
He is? Nale never struck me as very lawful; he's too self-centered, treacherous, and prone to blow the plan for the sake of his own personal emotions.
Kuja wrote:I figured Nale for CE. Fits with the whole succubus (CE) companion and makes more sense for his role as evil opposite. CE fits CG just as well for that as LE - better in some ways, since after all Nale is going for evil opposite, not total opposite.
I like this. Although sometimes I picture Nale as being Neutral Evil- he's more devoted to being a dickhead and to gratifying his own (selfish and horrid) personal desires than he is to any formal structure, code, or plan. But at the same time, he is capable of resisting his personal desires long enough to accomplish something, he has real impulse control, more so than Elan: "Must... resist... urge to assert... heterosexuality! For the sake... of the plan!" :D

Also, what with Sabine being an IFCC employee, it seems likely that she's a bit more flexible with respect to alignment- certainly enough to want to hook up with a neutral evil villain.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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It's Rogue, not Rouge!

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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:The fiends are Lee, N-something, and Cedric, corresponding to lawful, neutral, and chaotic (of course all of the evil varieties). Lee is a devil and lawful evil. And Nale was lawful evil owing to his whole evil opposite thing with Elan.
He is? Nale never struck me as very lawful; he's too self-centered, treacherous, and prone to blow the plan for the sake of his own personal emotions.
Kuja wrote:I figured Nale for CE. Fits with the whole succubus (CE) companion and makes more sense for his role as evil opposite. CE fits CG just as well for that as LE - better in some ways, since after all Nale is going for evil opposite, not total opposite.
I like this. Although sometimes I picture Nale as being Neutral Evil- he's more devoted to being a dickhead and to gratifying his own (selfish and horrid) personal desires than he is to any formal structure, code, or plan. But at the same time, he is capable of resisting his personal desires long enough to accomplish something, he has real impulse control, more so than Elan: "Must... resist... urge to assert... heterosexuality! For the sake... of the plan!" :D

Also, what with Sabine being an IFCC employee, it seems likely that she's a bit more flexible with respect to alignment- certainly enough to want to hook up with a neutral evil villain.
I think that here we have one clear case of why WotC removed Neutral and Chaotic versions of both Good and Evil alignment sets in 4E: how the hell do you differentiate between those without making the chaotic version loopy and/or incapable of planning and acting with long-term thought involved. Personally I've always viewed Chaotic person as someone who simply does not have any regards for rules and goes case-by-case, only tolerating rules as long as they don't inconvenience him or those close to him/important to him. Neutral person is more likely to follow rules and laws, but doesn't hold them up as important as a Lawful person would and wouldn't be conflicted about breaking them; however, he doesn't hold any special contempt for them, either. But the alignment set in DnD has always been murky and conflicted, to say the least; I did find the allegiance/affiliation system in d20 Modern better-suited in many ways, although the classis alignment system does allow for good quick characterizations.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

Post by Simon_Jester »

I see it as a sliding scale- Neutral occupies the midpoint between Chaotic and Lawful. People might routinely wobble around from Lawful to Neutral or Chaotic to Neutral in their lives; it's outright shifts from Chaotic to Lawful or vice versa that's more problematic.

What I really miss is the 1st edition system where you could have entities whose alignment was given as LN(G) or whatever: "Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies." That helped remove some of the black-and-white-ness of it, and made my sliding-scale approach more supportable.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

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Chaotic Evil, "Destroyer": A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. The demented sorceror pursuing mad schemes of vengeance and havoc is chaotic evil.
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Re: The OotS Thread III

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Neutral evil, in my opinion, would be the guy who is equally willing to work within the rules as he is to break them. He has his own set of moral framework, however warped, and will probably follow it unless there's a reason not to. He won't just up and kill someone for no reason, regardless of if he can get away with it, for example. But if he needs to make a point he won't hesitate. The chaotic evil guy can still be smart enough to refrain from killing someone without cause, but that's simply to avoid getting caught. CE is likely to have no real moral compass. Basically just does what he thinks will work best to achieve whatever goals he has.

LE, of course, is going to have some form of code that he doesn't want to deviate from. If he really has to, he will. But generally he won't be arbitrary in his cruelty. Sure he doesn't give a shit about a life or if someone suffers, but he has some sort of standard he wants to follow. More likely to have a good plan for things, but CE is perfectly capable of having a long-term goal and controlling himself to achieve that. Sure destroying that village would be fun, but if it interrupts the long-term goal it makes sense to control yourself. Not out of any sort of code or ethics, but out of pragmatism.

I don't particularly like the published guidelines on what qualities various alignments will have. It's too restrictive if the DM or player interpret that as the only way to play that alignment. Example: neutral on the good/evil axis doesn't mean you don't care about a life that much but lack the drive to cause harm. You can care about a life but you're probably not gonna be prone to going out of your way to help a bunch of people. Giving a bit of stuff to charity? Sure. But you likely won't rush into a burning building or give your last dime to someone in need.

So yeah, my take on the lawful vs chaotic stuff is: lawful has some code of conduct unrelated to the sanctity of life and won't abandon it out of mere convenience. If they do have to abandon it, they'll probably be somewhat upset at this failure. Neutral doesn't hold such codes as being close to sacred but doesn't completely disregard them either. So long as it isn't too intrusive, why not follow them and avoid causing problems? Then again, it's not a big deal to ignore the "rules" when it's convenient to do so. Then chaotic is the guy who says "screw the rules" and will break them if he thinks he can get away with it or if the punishment he'd face isn't a big enough deterrent. He's the guy who may well know the answers to the test but will copy off someone else's paper anyway, or will sit and share answers (correct or otherwise) with others, simply to say screw you to authority. He can follow rules if he really has to, but he hates to do so.


Following the official descriptions you'll wind up with cartoonish characters that aren't really believable or complex. The official CE description is basically "sadistic moron." Doesn't make for a good character, and unless he's being used as a minor villain early on he's not going to help the story along. You simply can't use a character like that at high levels because there's no way in hell the asshole could survive that long. Following official descriptions to the letter results in two-dimensional characters. Keep in mind the idiocy that is The Book of Vile Darkness. Wizards really didn't show a good grasp on what properly done evil will look like. The evil overlord is gonna need to be able to act outside the alignment descriptions if a rise to power is gonna happen.

I will grant that an idiotic character with the CE alignment is likely to follow that description, but that's a function of being an idiot who happens to have no code of conduct whatsoever. The LG idiot is going to be equally hampered by following rules too rigidly, or being unwilling to decide that sometimes it's okay to take a life. A valid way to read the good alignment is a complete unwillingness to take a life, no matter how evil that life is or the circumstances involved. Better to die than to take a life and all that.

Also, OotS subverts the very idea of CE meaning randomly cruel dickhead incapable of planning. Sure, Xykon follows a lot of it. But even he plans. And then there's Cedric, who gives every indication of having planning skills and a willingness to work with others for some end goal. The closest we have to the book description is Belkar, and look what that does to him. I see no reason to think that he's no longer chaotic, just that he's realized that if he wants to stay alive and avoid prison he has to control himself. Chaotic doesn't mean no impulse control.
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