Dominion v. Borg

[StarSword]

This came up in a thread on the Star Trek Online forum and I found it interesting. The scenario is pretty simple: how would the Dominion fare against invasion by the Borg?

Some of the points raised in the other thread:

• The Dominion war machine specializes in mass-producing warships and soldiers. Even if the Borg adapt to phased polaron weapons, they're still vulnerable to brute force and attrition as seen in First Contact.
• Assimilating Jem'Hadar would be counterproductive unless the Borg can biochemically cure their ketracel addiction during assimilation. This limits the Borg ability to replenish their own numbers off the backs of their enemies.
• The Jems are also very skilled in melee combat, shown repeatedly to be an effective way of killing drones in infantry battles.
• The Borg ability to assimilate the Founders, a shapeshifting species whose natural form is a liquid, is questionable.
• The Jem'Hadar care even less about losses than the Borg do.

[PREDATOR490]

A single cube is likely to get destroyed ranging from instantly by Attack Ships slamming into them or worn down by the time it reaches the Founder home.
A Scorpion style armada will roll over everything unless the powers in question have enough warning and time to assemble a counter.

Mass producing warships and soldiers wont mean shit unless the Dominion enough of a fleet to hold the Borg long enough for new ones to be built. In the case of a single cube, the Dominion crank out replacements for a battle that will already be over. In the case of the fleet of cubes, the standing fleet has to be big enough to hold the line until those production facilities can start cranking out new forces.
The attitude of the Borg plays a big part in how this plays out as well.
If they try to do the bull rush to the Founder home then it will likely end up going really badly for them as the Jems will hurl themselves into the cubes by the dozen to protect their gods.
If the Borg decide to play it smart with a slower steam roller that assimilates weaker targets so they can adapt and destroy strategic things like the Ketracel facilities then the Dominion are pretty screwed.

I would lean towards the Dominion being able to defeat the Borg simply because the Borg are plot-stupid.
However, if the Borg were to fight with a sensible amount of strategy and use their tech properly then the Dominion and nearly every other power would be screwed.

[Baffalo]

Predator raises several good points. The Borg are either devastating, or ultimately plot stupid, depending on who's writing the script.

Borg tactics seem to rely on minimalism, at least from my perspective. They weigh what similar tactics analyzed in the past have shown to work, how many they feel will be needed, and then send what they determine is the most efficient use of resources. While we know from our own viewing of battles such as Wolf 359 and then Sector 001, this tactic is devastating, at least for the Federation. While I don't have the numbers available, we saw numerous Starfleet ships taken out of the fight by the Borg, and they only lost the one ship. Considering they've only lost 2 cubes, this approach has failed, yet still hasn't cost them much in terms of resources. Not when battling Species 8472 has lost them many times over that number.

So more than likely, the Borg will send a cube, and it will get its ass handed to it simply because, from a Borg point of view, this is the best way to analyze the attacks by the Dominion. Any information sent back will dictate how the Borg proceed. They will try and assimilate any Jem'Hadar they can, so it comes down to how the Vorta and Jem'Hadar react to this. More than likely, given the crucial information the Vorta posses, they'll likely commit suicide to keep information out of the Borg's hands. And if a Founder is threatened... I pity the Borg.

In a straight war of attrition, it's difficult to tell who will win. The Borg have stronger ships, but the Dominion has one hell of a war machine as well. However, the Borg will probably analyze the data the first cube sends in, figure out that they can, and then either try and grind down the Dominion, or send a fleet of cubes in to just start assimilating everything until they find the Founder's homeworld and try to assimilate it. And a shapeshifting Borg is something I'd hate to see.

[Metahive]

The Borg send only one cube to sector 001 twice because that's really all it took to steamroll through the Federation's defenses. Both invasions were only beaten back due to insider knowledge, not through strength. The Borg can also always send more simply because they have a massive speed advantage over their enemies. The Dominion can never hit the main Borg bases in the Delta Quadrant while the Borg can chip away at Dominion territory at their own leisure and remember, every planet and ship taken becomes a full asset to them. The Dominion will eventually lose this one if the Borg decide to play for keeps.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

We know very little about the size and strength of the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant save for the fact that they control thousands of star systems. If you believe the Vorta then they have been around for 2,000 years, compared to the Borg who only half as long ago controlled a handful of systems.

In terms of numbers of ships they can commit to any single action, the Dominion tried to send 2,000 of them to the AQ but were stopped by the founders when they tried to transit the wormhole. Since they wouldn't risk more suffering the same fate they probably decided not to send more and concentrate on rebuilding- according to Martok the Dominion can build ships at an "impressive rate".

On the Borg's part, Arturis claimed that his species' star system was surrounded by hundreds of cubes, though he might have been exaggerating:

The outer colonies were the first to fall; 23 in a matter of hours. Our sentry vessels tossed aside, no defense against the storm. And by the time they had surrounded our star system... hundreds of cubes... we had already surrendered to our own terror

I have a feeling that Borg nanoprobes would have a better chance of assimilating a founder when it was in its liquid state as opposed to some of the more exotic forms that changelings can assume. And they don't necessarily have to reach the homeworld to get the chance, we know that it's not unheard of for founders to be aboard Dominion ships as opposed to spending all their time in the great link.

[Sidewinder]

I doubt the Borg can assimilate a founder, as the changelings lack a humanoid nervous system for the Collective to take over. See the Saltah'na energy sphere for a failed attempt to mind-control Odo.

In terms of numbers of ships they can commit to any single action, the Dominion tried to send 2,000 of them to the AQ but were stopped by the founders when they tried to transit the wormhole.

I think you mean "were stopped by the Prophets", the aliens who created the wormhole, and whom the Bajorans worship as gods.

[Baffalo]

I doubt the Borg can assimilate a founder, as the changelings lack a humanoid nervous system for the Collective to take over. See the Saltah'na energy sphere for a failed attempt to mind-control Odo.

I would think that the Saltah energy spheres would be highly dependent on being compatible with the personalities inside the spheres, rather than simply "Here's a body, dump it in here." It would be using technology highly different than Borg nanoprobes, since we're talking about implanting a personality using energy fields rather than wrapping cells in nanoprobes to make the person more machine than person.

I think you mean "were stopped by the Prophets", the aliens who created the wormhole, and whom the Bajorans worship as gods.

Come on dude, don't be harsh. Probably just a typo.

[Sidewinder]

I recall Odo saying, "If you scanned me when I was a rock, you will find a rock." This suggests a changeling can alter his molecular structure, or somehow fool sensors into interpreting it as such (don't look at me, I'm just repeating something from a DS9 episode). I doubt Borg nanoprobes can assimilate what their sensors identify is an inanimate rock, in which case, assimilating the Founders is more difficult than they think.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Founders aside, I see nothing to stop the Borg from assimilating a Vorta or a Jem'Hadar. Someone above mentioned about the ketracel white, but really, just looking from afar, I can't see it as an issue. Some (few) have managed to overcome it itself and the Federation's got damned close to replicating it - the S'Ona can replicate it as well.

There is also the quote from I, Borg (TNG), where Geordi states that a Borg can receive energy and use it to create whatever substances their biological components require. I really, really do not think KW would be an issue for the Borg.

With regard to "hundreds of cubes" - possible exaggeration - possibly not. We've seen them send three cubes and the Queen herself to go assimilate less than 300,000 life forms before - and they have cube numbers that range up to at least five digits. I see nothing to suggest the Borg couldn't send a hundred cubes. Although, the largest fleet we have seen is 47 Cubes (End Game). I think 47 cubes could do it too.

With regards to Dominion size - no, we have no idea. They are between 10,000 and 2,000 years of age - probably thousands of systems, maybe tens of thousands. We cannot guess the amount of ships they have available. At least 2,000. Possibly a hundred thousand. Or more. Or less. Anywhere in between. A total unknown.

Their ships - at least the Battle Bugs, are pathetically armoured / shielded.


It really depends on how you want the vs to be staged. If this is a "the borg encounter the dominion - what happens" - god knows - if it's anything like the Federation, it'll take them decades to attack the Dominion. If it's a "Borg vs Dominion - FIGHT!" - the Borg steamroll this in a matter of days. The thing is, the Borg can attack the Dominion - at 5 minutes notice. The Dominion would take decades to do the same. The Borg can't lose. Absolute best case scenario for the Dominion is the Borg treat them like the Federation - a single cube at a time.

Remember it took the Dominion nearly 3 months to mass together 2000 ships to go through the wormhole - from the start of the war. If the Borg drop out of transwarp on their doorstep with their full fleet...


And finally, the Borg being only a few hundred years old. Maybe, maybe not. Guinan, who I trust a lot more than a Vaadwar - said they'd been developing for thousands of centuries. Possibly they suffered something a millennia ago which caused them to regress - Seven said she couldn't remember as the Collective's memory (not hers, the Collective) was, from that time period, "fragmented". Perhaps someone forgot to swap the tapes over the backup drives, who knows.

[Singular Intellect]

I recall reading somewhere it was speculated one of the reasons the Dominion war shifted in favor of the Federation was that there had been an encounter between the Borg and Dominion that immediately had the Dominion shift priorities away from winning in the Alpha quadrant. Pure speculation, but fun and interesting nonetheless.

Personally, I'd say if it were a full out Borg versus Dominion situation, it would be something of a hilarious curbstomp against the Dominion.

If one were to go by the battle in First Contact, it seems safe to assume that a Borg cube can plow through Starfleet's best defenses and almost reach Earth itself. The initial audio monitoring of the battle clearly indicates the Borg cube smashed through Starfleet's defense perimeter with ease, the fleet started taking heavy damage and they started calling for reinforcements. Either the cube was far more powerful than they expected or Starfleet underestimated the Borg incursion and deployed a small fleet. The latter seems unlikely, given the history between the Borg and Federation.

The fact a single Borg cube is the equivalent of, conservatively, dozens of top end Federation starships swings the battle against the Dominion rather badly. There's even been suggestions that the battle of First Contact involved hundreds of Federation ships trying to stop the cube, which would realistically make any Dominion analyst shit their pants if the Borg decided to send a dozen or more of those into Dominion space intent on causing trouble. Never mind hundreds. Particularly since Federation ships seem to be generally significantly stronger and more powerful one for one in Starfleet/Dominion matchups. Heavily damaged or not, the Borg cube was observed to be annihilating Federation starships with one shot hits on multiple occasions in the visuals.

In sheer firepower, the Borg would seem to have that assessment heavily in their favour. Their intelligence gathering ability via assimilation is nothing to sneer at either, as information on the enemy would obviously get into the Collective quickly that way. Dominion cloning facilities are no match for Borg drones that the Borg can replenish extremely rapidly. It only take a matter of a few minutes for an individual to fall under Borg control, a couple of hours perhaps to be fully outfitted. As opposed to the Dominion that requires days to grow a Jem'Hadar soldier.

On top of that, with strategic and tactical advantages of transwarp drive, high end sustainable warp capabilities and a transwarp hub network that allows the Borg to deploy throughout the entire galaxy within minutes, the Dominion is utterly fucked if the Borg play their cards even half intelligently. As with the Federation, the Borg could hit the Dominion at leisure and be immune from counteract in their own territory.

The biggest difference between the Dominion and the Borg is goals and behavior. The Dominion would evaluate the Borg from a military perspective, the Borg would evaluate the Dominion merely in the context of providing anything useful from assimilation. The Dominion is a powerful, but careful and plotting organization, while the Borg are a primarily brute force organization that is powerful enough it has subjugated thousands of civilizations and effectively declared war on thousands more across the entire galaxy with absolutely zero interest in negotiation.

Within the Star Trek universe, it seems to be generally established the Borg Collective is by far the most powerful conventional power in the galaxy. When one remembers the Borg are not interested in 'political conquest, wealth or power as you know it', it's hardly surprising they could be argued as theoretically being capable of conquering the galaxy, but it just doesn't fit their agenda or motives. The Borg Collective isn't a military organization nor intent on military conquest, so it's important to evaluate their behavior and actions in that context.

If the Borg do see the entire galaxy and its civilizations with all their unique biologies and technologies as something to be harvested, it makes sense they would only harvest that which truly interests them or threatens them. Sweeping the galaxy clean, even if it could be done, would be completely counterproductive to their agenda.

I'd say the Dominion's best bet would be to fight off any Borg incursions as best possible and try not to look too appetizing as either as a juicy large scale assimilation target or as a serious threat to the Collective.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Oo, there's one thing we've forgotten.

Generally you can beam aboard a Borg ship. They don't tend to really care. The Dominion can also beam through shields quite easily.

If (and there's no way to know, but I'd say at least on the first encounter they could, and would) the Dominion and the Borg had a big fleet fight, I'd say the Jem'Hadar would beam over in their thousands. They'll use their big axe weapons and kill the Borg drones on the ship. The Borg have never, to my knowledge, been in battle with a race that beams aboard.

Excepting Species 8472.

I think the Dominion, for the first encounter, would transport legions of JH onto the Borg ships, engage them in hand to hand combat and possible win that way. The Borg do have force fields to stop people entering certain areas (TBOBW, STFC, Dark Frontier) but JH also have the ability to walk through forcefields (DS9: The Jem'Hadar).

Hmm.

[Metahive]

Your speculations are wrong.

There's a difference between the Federation sending small teams over to a Borg ship and Jem'hadar appearing in masses. The Borg only ignore non-threatening targets and a screaming, raging battalion of Jem'hadar is definitely threatening. Also, since Dark Frontier the Borg stopped ignoring even unassuming intruders (hence the need for some sort of masking device invented by the Hansons) and they can easily erect force fields within their ships. Also, the Borg block transporters on principle since BOBW.

So no, going all Pirates of the Carribean on a Borg cube isn't a winning ploy for the Dominion.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Your speculations are wrong.

There's a difference between the Federation sending small teams over to a Borg ship and Jem'hadar appearing in masses. The Borg only ignore non-threatening targets and a screaming, raging battalion of Jem'hadar is definitely threatening.

Yes but 20,000 Jem'Hadar can beam in from their ships all at once.

Also, since Dark Frontier the Borg stopped ignoring even unassuming intruders (hence the need for some sort of masking device invented by the Hansons) and they can easily erect force fields within their ships.

The inhibitors were to stop them from seeing them for a length of time. It was not to bypass an anti-beaming field of any kind. The Jem'Hadar would not need one, because the instant they beam in, all over the ship, they start hacking away.

Dark Frontier:
First scene - an active photon torpedo is beamed aboard a ship and detonated.
-- Clearly at this stage, the Borg allow transporting of a weapon on board.

Act 9 - Janeway and Tuvok beam on to the Diamond. This was whilst the Borg were aware they were coming for Seven and had erected a shield to prevent beaming OUT - the crew was unable to lock on to Seven and retrieve her, but were able to beam in themselves.

Having gone over the remaining episodes featuring Borg, they don't actually attempt to board a Borg ship again. There are fields and shields which prevent beaming OUT (Unimatrix Zero) but even back in TNG, there were times when you could beam in and out with the Borg preventing beam out of specific things (Locutus - the Away team was allowed to leave, even after being considered a threat).

There is also the issue with the Jem'Hadar able to transport through active shielding - even that of a space station or the Defiant. Even IF the Borg errected a field that prevented beaming IN (something we haven't seen specifically - each time someone wanted to beam in to a Borg area, they were not prevented). Only beaming out.

You mention being a threat - yes, upon detecting a threat internally the borg will respond after a few seconds. However if the JH from a fleet of ships all materialise at once, it wont matter.

The Borg, during a combat situation with Voyager, under fire at the time, still did not prevent beaming into their ship and Voyager managed to get a torpedo on board.

Also, the Borg block transporters on principle since BOBW.

Then explain Dark Frontier's two examples? Beaming out - blocked. Beaming in - unblocked.

I suggest:

1) The Jem'Hadar will not be blocked from beaming over initially (but they only need do it once)
2) Even if the Borg did try to stop them from beaming in, the Jem'Hadar have the ability to beam through shields
3) Even if they erected force fields internally, the Jem'hadar have the ability to move through them
4) They will then use their combat axe-swords to assault the Borg physically, something we know they are vulnerable to (STFC - Worf's sword, bullets, Data punching them. TBOBW - Worf and Data physically restraining Locutus).

They can't win a war this way - the Borg will just self destruct the ships if they're compromised (Unimatrix Zero). As I said, the Dominion can't win this war. They have no advantages - numbers, speed, weapons power, defenses - but in an initial assault, if it's only a few ships, I think the Jem'Hadar have the possibility of a stale mate.

[Metahive]

Yes but 20,000 Jem'Hadar can beam in from their ships all at once.

Cite canonical examples where they did that. The Klingons beamed over to DS9 with melee weapons in Way of the Warrior, the Jem'hadar in Call to Arms, who were in a similar situation, did not. The only time they exclusively relied on CQC was in To The Death due to some tech-babble anti-advanced weapons force field.

Dark Frontier:
First scene - an active photon torpedo is beamed aboard a ship and detonated.
-- Clearly at this stage, the Borg allow transporting of a weapon on board.

That was a weaker ship whose shields Voyager had pierced. They also had insider knowledge which the Jem'hadar won't.

Act 9 - Janeway and Tuvok beam on to the Diamond. This was whilst the Borg were aware they were coming for Seven and had erected a shield to prevent beaming OUT - the crew was unable to lock on to Seven and retrieve her, but were able to beam in themselves.

Janeway couldn't beam directly into the Queen's chamber and no, they hadn't been detected then.

Having gone over the remaining episodes featuring Borg, they don't actually attempt to board a Borg ship again. There are fields and shields which prevent beaming OUT (Unimatrix Zero) but even back in TNG, there were times when you could beam in and out with the Borg preventing beam out of specific things (Locutus - the Away team was allowed to leave, even after being considered a threat).

In Unimatrix Zero they had to do something about the Tac-Cube's shields first to beam aboard and just like in Dark Frontier it was a deliberate trap anyway so those examples are nil. They were allowed to board on purpose.

In BOBW they had to fly under the Borg's shields (actually then those were "Hyperspace Fields") to beam inside to retrieve Locutus.

Your examples are all invalid because you haven't been paying attention.

Also, you haven't said anything about the Jem'hadar avoiding getting captured by forcefields the Borg can easily erect within their ships as seen in Unimatrix Zero where they do just that to capture Janeway. What will stop the Borg from doing the same to a Jem'hadar boarding party?

Also, there're about 30000 drones on board a cube and the ship itself is at least several kilometers in length, width and height. Even if the enough bugships make it close enough to the cube without getting swatted away like flies and somehow damage the cube's shields enough to beam in, they'll simply get lost, divided by forcefields and individually overwhelmed.

Letting a Borg drone near you is also the quickest way to get zombified if you are not a main character with thick plot shields. Watch the one redshirt in First Contact who tries that and is OHKO'd.

Melee combat is not a silver bullet to the Borg menace.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yes but 20,000 Jem'Hadar can beam in from their ships all at once.

Cite canonical examples where they did that.

Where they beamed 20,000 people at once? I can't. In this make believe scenario we're talking about a fleet vs a cube (or cubes). This has never happened in Trek. It's a what if.

The Klingons beamed over to DS9 with melee weapons in Way of the Warrior

Which has what, to do with this?

the Jem'hadar in Call to Arms, who were in a similar situation, did not.

Can't argue with that, although they were surprised at this - "Impossible. Federation shields have always proven useless against our technology"

The only time they exclusively relied on CQC was in To The Death due to some tech-babble anti-advanced weapons force field.

However Worf felt it was a common enough occurance that he taught his son to fight against Jem'Hadar later in the series - clearly it's not a one off event.

They also have beamed aboard in other episodes such as Star Trek DS9 Season 05 Episode 14 - In Purgatorys Shadow.

Dark Frontier:
First scene - an active photon torpedo is beamed aboard a ship and detonated.
-- Clearly at this stage, the Borg allow transporting of a weapon on board.

That was a weaker ship whose shields Voyager had pierced. They also had insider knowledge which the Jem'hadar won't.

The Founders know everything the Federation does - they had spies on Earth replacing people as far back as season 4. They've even taunted DS9 staff with this knowledge before.

Act 9 - Janeway and Tuvok beam on to the Diamond. This was whilst the Borg were aware they were coming for Seven and had erected a shield to prevent beaming OUT - the crew was unable to lock on to Seven and retrieve her, but were able to beam in themselves.

Janeway couldn't beam directly into the Queen's chamber and no, they hadn't been detected then.

I said they were aware they were coming, not that they had detected them. The Queen knew they were right next door, she just couldn't spot them.

In BOBW they had to fly under the Borg's shields (actually then those were "Hyperspace Fields") to beam inside to retrieve Locutus.

It was an electromagnetic field. No idea where you're getting hyperspace from.

Jem'Hadar can beam *through* shields and fields. What makes you think they cannot beam through Borg shields? Borg can - so presumably there is a way?

Your examples are all invalid because you haven't been paying attention.

Pay attention yourself - "hyperspace" ? wtf is that from?

Also, you haven't said anything about the Jem'hadar avoiding getting captured by forcefields the Borg can easily erect within their ships as seen in Unimatrix Zero where they do just that to capture Janeway. What will stop the Borg from doing the same to a Jem'hadar boarding party?

Pay attention yourself - I've said it 3 times. The Jem'Hadar have the ability to walk through intruder level force fields.

Also, there're about 30000 drones on board a cube and the ship itself is at least several kilometers in length, width and height. Even if the enough bugships make it close enough to the cube without getting swatted away like flies and somehow damage the cube's shields enough to beam in, they'll simply get lost, divided by forcefields and individually overwhelmed.

"lost"? They're not going anywhere. I propose they would beam in all over the damned thing and over-run it.

Letting a Borg drone near you is also the quickest way to get zombified if you are not a main character with thick plot shields. Watch the one redshirt in First Contact who tries that and is OHKO'd.

He went up against them hand to hand, not with a sword which has been shown to work against them.

Melee combat is not a silver bullet to the Borg menace.

It is, however, more effective than most other styles of combat.


All that aside, I guess the Jem'Hadar would happily ram the cubes to death.

[Metahive]

Cite canonical examples where they did that.

Where they beamed 20,000 people at once? I can't. In this make believe scenario we're talking about a fleet vs a cube (or cubes). This has never happened in Trek. It's a what if.

It still has to be grounded somewhat in what has come before. Speculation doesn't mean "everything goes". The Jem'Hadar never use the mass Pirate boarding tactics that you propose here, so why would they suddenly start with the Borg? Borg drones are less squishy than Starfleet redshirts.

The Klingons beamed over to DS9 with melee weapons in Way of the Warrior

Which has what, to do with this?

the Jem'hadar in Call to Arms, who were in a similar situation, did not.

Can't argue with that, although they were surprised at this - "Impossible. Federation shields have always proven useless against our technology"

They were surprised that the shields weren't battered by their phased polaron beams which had been super-effective before. And I'm mentioning the Klingons because they're the ones who use Pirate boarding tactics as a main strategy in contrast to the Jem'Hadar who don't.

Watch the goddamned show!

The only time they exclusively relied on CQC was in To The Death due to some tech-babble anti-advanced weapons force field.

However Worf felt it was a common enough occurance that he taught his son to fight against Jem'Hadar later in the series - clearly it's not a one off event.

Weak. In The Siege of SR-557 which shows prolonged ground warfare exactly 0 of the Jem'Hadar use melee weapons and start the confrontation with a shootout. In fact, no ground engagement afterwards has Jem'Hadar wielding those battleaxes.
You are grasping at very thin straws.

They also have beamed aboard in other episodes such as Star Trek DS9 Season 05 Episode 14 - In Purgatorys Shadow.

This isn't about "the Jem'Hadar never beam over to hostile ships", this is about "the Jem'Hadar don't use pirate boarding tactics unlike the Klingons".

That was a weaker ship whose shields Voyager had pierced. They also had insider knowledge which the Jem'hadar won't.

The Founders know everything the Federation does - they had spies on Earth replacing people as far back as season 4. They've even taunted DS9 staff with this knowledge before.

Yes, which is why they foresaw the Federation's every move and never suffered any setbacks in the war, huh? Like, uh, Sisko mining the wormhole and DS9 being undefended because of a surprise strike on Dominion shipyards. Also, Voyager didn't return until after the end of the war.

Watch the goddamned show!

Janeway couldn't beam directly into the Queen's chamber and no, they hadn't been detected then.

I said they were aware they were coming, not that they had detected them. The Queen knew they were right next door, she just couldn't spot them.

No. Watch the goddamned show!

In BOBW they had to fly under the Borg's shields (actually then those were "Hyperspace Fields") to beam inside to retrieve Locutus.

It was an electromagnetic field. No idea where you're getting hyperspace from.

It's what they called it in the german dub. It however doesn't matter what's it called. It's still something that blocks people from beaming in willy-nilly.

Jem'Hadar can beam *through* shields and fields. What makes you think they cannot beam through Borg shields? Borg can - so presumably there is a way?

They do it exactly once, in The Jem'Hadar and never again even if it were to their advantage which you would know if you had actually watched the show. Which provides ample evidence that this was a one-off they had prepared for specifically. Just like the Vorta displaying telekinetic powers only in that one episode and only that episode. It's not farfetched to presume the Vorta they "rescued" tampered with the systems of DS9 to let the Jem'Hadar through.

If you insist on this I expect you to thoroughly explain why this ability is never seen again in any other episode. And also why the Vorta lost their psychic powers despite the immense usefulness they would have had in many situations.

Also, there're about 30000 drones on board a cube and the ship itself is at least several kilometers in length, width and height. Even if the enough bugships make it close enough to the cube without getting swatted away like flies and somehow damage the cube's shields enough to beam in, they'll simply get lost, divided by forcefields and individually overwhelmed.

"lost"? They're not going anywhere. I propose they would beam in all over the damned thing and over-run it.

I repeat, a Borg cube is really, really huge and can still function with 80% of it wrecked (BOBW). While the Jem'Hadar are busy just running around and swinging their battleaxes aimlessly at stuff the Borg just finish off the enemy fleet which is now without a crew and then assimilate those hapless morons who delivered themselves right into their hands.

Letting a Borg drone near you is also the quickest way to get zombified if you are not a main character with thick plot shields. Watch the one redshirt in First Contact who tries that and is OHKO'd.

He went up against them hand to hand, not with a sword which has been shown to work against them.

Melee combat is not a silver bullet to the Borg menace.

It is, however, more effective than most other styles of combat.

Only if you are a main character (or Species 8472 prior to Janeway's meddling). We see plenty of assimilated Klingons.

All that aside, I guess the Jem'Hadar would happily ram the cubes to death.

They one-shot the bugships before they can impact. Bugships are brittle and unlike Federation and Klingon ships, the Cube has no dead spots.

[Prometheus Unbound]

They also boarded in One Little Ship. That's three times they've done it to the DS9 crew alone. I will not debate this point futher.

They didn't use melee weapons in Siege because they were coming in from a distance - Jem'Hadar are slightly less retarded than Klingons in that respect. You do see some of them holding them or with them attached to their backs in the slow-mo shots. Work trains his son in them later - clearly they are still used. I wont debate that point further.

Weyoun commented on "technology" not weapons with regard to DS9 shields - and as soon as the shields were down - they boarded the station! I will not debate this point further.

Force fields - it was shown in "the abandonned" that force field immunity was a piece of tech and not innate to their biology - so they were able to keep that one confined. But it was mentioned.

Ramming - A borg cube cannot fire on a thousand ships at once.

[seanrobertson]

Weyoun commented on "technology" not weapons with regard to DS9 shields - and as soon as the shields were down - they boarded the station! I will not debate this point further.

I hate to be a sniping asshole Truly, I feel like that's all nitpickery really is: someone swooping in, taking a pot-shot and sailing back off again.

That said ...

What you wrote there simply isn't true. I remember "Call To Arms" well enough I don't even need to check the script or Youtube.

DAMAR: "Sir ... the station's shields are holding!"
WEYOUN: "Impossible. Federation shields have always proven useless against our weapons."

Further, Dukat's fleet never really knocked the station's shields down. DS9 lost main shield power for perhaps three seconds before Worf stepped in and activated auxiliary power. The Jem'Hadar didn't board the station until well after Sisko left and Major Kira officially "welcomed" them aboard DS9.

Anyhow, I honestly don't see Jem'Hadar boarding parties amounting to much in a Dominion/Borg conflict. It's an interesting idea, but the best examples cited all involve The Defiant. She has a crew of ... what? Maybe 50 people? That's a bit different than trying to storm a ship 100,000+ strong.

Ramming maneuvers, at least massed ones, are where they'd get the most bang for their buck. As you rightly noted, up against a truly huge Dominion fleet, they wouldn't be able to pick off ships fast enough to keep them from colliding with the cube.

It'd be fun to see how many attack ships it'd take to bring a cube down. I anticipate one would just explode against the cube's shields, much as that Hideki did when it rammed DS9's OPS in "CTA."

[Prometheus Unbound]

What you wrote there simply isn't true. I remember "Call To Arms" well enough I don't even need to check the script or Youtube.

DAMAR: "Sir ... the station's shields are holding!"
WEYOUN: "Impossible. Federation shields have always proven useless against our weapons."

Watching it again, you're right. I'll eat my words and apologise.

[Metahive]

They also boarded in One Little Ship. That's three times they've done it to the DS9 crew alone. I will not debate this point futher.

The fucking Defiant which is as big as a luxury yacht and has a crew of <50. Yeah, great extrapolating from this to a kilometers huge cube that holds about ~130000 drones, in other words, the equivalent of a whole WW2 era army. O yeah, and mighty mature of you to go the Eric Cartman route.

They didn't use melee weapons in Siege because they were coming in from a distance - Jem'Hadar are slightly less retarded than Klingons in that respect. You do see some of them holding them or with them attached to their backs in the slow-mo shots. Work trains his son in them later - clearly they are still used. I wont debate that point further.

O FFS, the battle did devolve into a melee and yet they didn't start swinging their axes around. The straws you are grasping are growing ever the thinner.

BTW, I will not let you off the hook. You will either debate this properly or concede. Just saying that you don't feel like discussing an argument you yourself made doesn't fly on this board. I will report this to the mods if necessary.

Force fields - it was shown in "the abandonned" that force field immunity was a piece of tech and not innate to their biology - so they were able to keep that one confined. But it was mentioned.

That's nothing. So we can say that this is not ability the Jem'Hadar can consistently make us of. Also, Federation forcefields are not Borg forcefields. Them getting boxed in is still a possibility and even if they pass once, there's still a high chance the Borg adapt and nullify this particular advantage. Adapting to tech-babble is a major Borg strength after all.

Ramming - A borg cube cannot fire on a thousand ships at once.

The only time we see the Dominon deploying that many ships is in prepared set-piece battles. All other engagements feature a dozen or so at best. Cubes are fast which lowers the chances of the Dominion amassing that many ships in time. In Dark Frontier, when the Borg attacked the last stronghold of S10052 they deployed more than one ship. When they attack Dominion strongholds, which should be the only chance of encountering larger Dominion fleets, they'll most probably send more than one ship as well. Arturis claims that hundreds of cubes assaulted his homeworld, so that's what the Dominion has to deal with should the Borg be serious about it.

Also, what makes you think the Dominion can just casually piss away a thousand ships just to destroy one Borg vessel when they can't possibly win a battle of attrition with the Borg due to the latter's immense speed advantage? The Borg queen sacrificed entire cubes just as ruthlessly in Unimatrix Zero, so I think they can replace losses just as fast as the Dominion. Fuck, even the fullscale invasion by S8472 which brought the Borg to the brink of total extinction couldn't delay their recovery for long and they were up to their old tricks in no time.

Face it, the Dominion can at best only delay the inevitable. The Borg can produce troops and ships just as fast as the Dominion, in fact, they can easily turn Dominion assets into their own. Their primary facilities are too far away for the Dominion to reach while the Borg can attack at their leisure and chip away at the Dominion piece by piece, planet by planet. The Dominon loses this one.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I said I'm not debating it further with you.

[seanrobertson]

What you wrote there simply isn't true. I remember "Call To Arms" well enough I don't even need to check the script or Youtube.

DAMAR: "Sir ... the station's shields are holding!"
WEYOUN: "Impossible. Federation shields have always proven useless against our weapons."

Watching it again, you're right. I'll eat my words and apologise.

No biggie Besides, you're totally right about the big picture. I couldn't have put it better:


They can't win a war this way - the Borg will just self destruct the ships if they're compromised (Unimatrix Zero). As I said, the Dominion can't win this war. They have no advantages - numbers, speed, weapons power, defenses - but in an initial assault, if it's only a few ships, I think the Jem'Hadar have the possibility of a stale mate.

[Metahive]

I said I'm not debating it further with you.

That's no way to conduct a debate, bub. Either continue the debate or concede.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I said I'm not debating it further with you.

That's no way to conduct a debate, bub. Either continue the debate or concede.

well, if you stop talking to me like a retard, I will. seanroberson has the right idea.

Most if not all of my knowledge of Trek is ingrained by done from memory - I rarely look stuff up. If you point out a flaw, point it out, give the episode yadda yadda and I'm more than happy to say "yup, my bad.". Start calling me names over it and I'll just ignore you.

FWIW, I'm not a "warsie" by any stretch of the imagination (and of course, that's "off limits" in this sub forum) - but you're not debating someone who has a dislike for Trek. Quite the opposite.

Just be civil.



I honestly think in an amassed fleet vs a cube or two, the Jem'Hadar have the *CAPABILITY* and, in some cases, examples of boarding enemy vessels.

Will it work? I dunno. It's anyone's guess. Borg have EM shields... Dominion can beam through shields. Borg have personal forcefields, Jem'Hadar have weapons which we've never seen *fail* against a Borg. Borg can put up force fields to stop them, Jem'Hadar have been seen to walk through "intruder" level shields before.

I have no fucking idea if they can do it. My underlying point was, however, and this is something you seem to either ignore or miss, is that even if they COULD do it, it will only last the battle, not the war.

The Dominion is fucked, long term. They can, short term, if they're smart, put up a fight with tactics we know they've used on the smaller scale and we know these tactics do work against the Borg. Cos the Borg are dumb.

Big picture - the borg steam roll them. They're faster, more powerful and have more resources and can pick battles at will. I never implied otherwise.

[aussiemuscle308]

I recall reading somewhere it was speculated one of the reasons the Dominion war shifted in favor of the Federation was that there had been an encounter between the Borg and Dominion that immediately had the Dominion shift priorities away from winning in the Alpha quadrant.

I've often thought that would be a beneficial thing to do on purpose (introduce the dominion and the borg) once the war started.