Miles O'Brien's Bar tab

[FaxModem1]

There is the problem of Jake Sisko trying to acquire a baseball card in the episode of "In the Cards", having instead to guilt trip Nog to use his life savings to be able to bid on the card. Of course, this might be just because Jake Sisko never had an allowance and he wasn't exactly an ace reporter for the Federation News Service yet.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I don't think it's possible to reconcile it all, tbh.

Any theory which takes into account every phrase used, is convoluted and self contradictory.

[Broomstick]

The thing that makes it nonsensical is, if I recall correctly, Kirk told Scotty at one point that he earned his pay over some awesome engineering feat. Why would Kirk talk about getting payed only to later say that the Fedearation did away with money?

Perhaps it is a figure of speech, much like we might say someone is worth his salt although people haven't been paid in salt for centuries.

[Flameblade]

I'd heard that "worth his salt" was derived from packing meat/fish in salt for transport. Saying that they're not worth the salt it'd take to sell their skin, rather than just not being worth their pay.

[Broomstick]

Just as the English word "salary" is ultimately derived from Latin and the Ancient Roman practice of paying the army at least partially in salt, "worth his salt" in reference to a person basically means "worth his salary".

[Prometheus Unbound]

No they weren't.

[Formless]

The thing that makes it nonsensical is, if I recall correctly, Kirk told Scotty at one point that he earned his pay over some awesome engineering feat. Why would Kirk talk about getting payed only to later say that the Fedearation did away with money?

Perhaps it is a figure of speech, much like we might say someone is worth his salt although people haven't been paid in salt for centuries.

I'm pretty sure the movies also have dialogue about one of the characters planning to buy a boat.

In any case, there is plenty of evidence that Credits are currency, not credit in the sense you are using it. The sense that you use it is still a promise of payment; but payment in what? Even in the Soviet Union Rubles were the official currency, despite their limited use. Any case where a character couldn't spend them can easily be explained as outside governments and non-Federation citizens rejecting them as valid payment, much as you might reject payment in yen or pesos. Or like that scene in The Phantom Menace where we learn that Republic currency (also called "Credits") are rejected on Tatooine and other outer rim territories. That Quark does accept them says a lot about their potential value despite this.

Granted, the fact that some scenes indicate that they are using credit in its traditional sense speaks of the idiocy of naming your currency "Credits". Frankly, I wish Sci-fi writers would stop doing that. Come up with any name you like, I don't care how hard it is to say without laughing, but don't co-opt a word with a well established financial meaning.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It was Scotty in TUC that said "I just bought a boat."

EDIT: Incidentally, I don't think Quark accepting Federation credits should be compared to Watto nottaking Republic credits. The Republic "doesn't exist out here" and so there is nothing to make Watto use them except whatever inherent value they might (or might not have). Quark however is on a space station run by Starfleet and defended by Starfleet and apparently doesn't pay rent. I would say that's a big incentive to keep Federation citizens happy by accepting their credits. I tihnk it's more of him being a good host than the Federation credits having enough inherent value for Quark to deal with them.

Worth noting is that all of Quarks business dealings aside from the bar are done exclusively in gold-pressed latinum rather than any other currency.

[aussiemuscle308]

Since it seems that many people that frequent Quark's pay via gold-pressed latinum

the currency would have to be something that can't be replicated, for obvious reasons.

I would love to see a Star Trek series that focused on a group of privateers/independent traders.

have you tried the fan series 'Aurora'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mHyGlqsjsQ

[FaxModem1]

It was Scotty in TUC that said "I just bought a boat."

EDIT: Incidentally, I don't think Quark accepting Federation credits should be compared to Watto nottaking Republic credits. The Republic "doesn't exist out here" and so there is nothing to make Watto use them except whatever inherent value they might (or might not have). Quark however is on a space station run by Starfleet and defended by Starfleet and apparently doesn't pay rent. I would say that's a big incentive to keep Federation citizens happy by accepting their credits. I tihnk it's more of him being a good host than the Federation credits having enough inherent value for Quark to deal with them.

Worth noting is that all of Quarks business dealings aside from the bar are done exclusively in gold-pressed latinum rather than any other currency.

That seems like a big loss for Quark if he's just using currency he can't really use, and seems rather out of character for him if he's running a bar and is getting nothing but free rent and repairs out of the deal.

[Eternal_Freedom]

You misunderstand, I'm not saying that Quark is only accepting "credits" because of the free rent/defences, but I'm saying that probably factored into the decision. So whilst he might not have decided to take them based on their value alone, combined with the advantages of keeping Starfleet happy (who were a major source of business) it became worthwhile.

[FaxModem1]

So, if you do business in the Federation, not only do you make a profit with Federation credits, you also don't pay rent and don't have to worry about repairs, in addition to having a rather safe place to work?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Woah, not sure where you got that from. We know Quark doesn't pay rent and benefits from having Starfleet around to stop the station being blown away or conquered. I don't know if every business gets free rent.

Heck, his free rent deal may have been part of his deal with Sisko to keept he bar open in "The Emissary."

[FaxModem1]

So, are you saying that credits are worthless to Quark, but he stayed on because of the nice perks of Federation landlords, or that in addition to using latinum, he also used credits, because he got a sweet deal with the rent?

[Eternal_Freedom]

No, I'm saying it is somewhere in between. Credits clearly have some value but given the perks Quark gets it is clear that the value of a credit is not the only factor in his decision to accept them.

[Napoleon the Clown]

He can probably use the credits he gets from his bar to get stuff from Federation personnel who may not have access to gold pressed latinum. Or even supplies when there is interaction with Star Fleet itself, since they may be unwilling to just hand over stuff for free when the person in question isn't under their employ.

[Steve]

It seems to me that GPL was introduced to the galaxy at large by the Ferengi, going by elements of DS9.

[Ted C]

Presumably Quark pays some kind of rent for the space, as well as having obligations for energy consumption and other utilities provided by the station. Since the Federation is a "moneyless economy", I would venture that party of his "rent and utilities" consists of providing services to Federation personnel who venture into his establishment. Said personnel probably get a certain amount of credit to the various station shops that they can use as they choose.

[Steve]

Granted, the fact that some scenes indicate that they are using credit in its traditional sense speaks of the idiocy of naming your currency "Credits". Frankly, I wish Sci-fi writers would stop doing that. Come up with any name you like, I don't care how hard it is to say without laughing, but don't co-opt a word with a well established financial meaning.

That's one thing I liked about BattleTech. They didn't have credits; they had C-bills - based on the value of interstellar communication transmission time/bandwidth - and FedCom kroner and a couple of other currencies I can't remember.

I guess "credit" is desired because "dollar" would seem American-centric (or Anglo-centric) to people or something. It's such a neutral term for a financial medium that it sounds properly neutral and doesn't require trying to come up with "newer" sounding currency names.

[BabelHuber]

This is something that I had been wondering about. If the federation did not use money by the 24th century, how did Miles O'brien and other Starfleet Personnel on DS9 buy drinks at Quarks? Did they ever explain that

IIRC Bajor did not join the Federation during the whole series. So DS9 was a Bajoran space station which was run with the help of the Federation (with Sisko being the commander, but Kira being the first officer, still wearing her Bajoran uniform).

Also Odo was hired by Bajor, not by the Federation (hence his 'unform'), you also see a mixture of Federation and Bajoran security personal.

So I think Quark's bar is run under Bajoran law, where a currency still exist. Also, there was some 'replimat' or so, where Federation officers just went to a replicator and got a meal for free.

The Federation officers seemed to have small amounts of Latinum, so they could have the occasional drink at Quark's, but did not have enough Latinum to e.g. buy a shuttle.

I always assumed that Federation personal gets a little bit of Latinum from the government, after all they were working in foreign space.

As soon as Bajor joins the Federation, Federation law will apply to DS9, so Quark has to change his business or leave.

[Crazedwraith]

So I think Quark's bar is run under Bajoran law, where a currency still exist. Also, there was some 'replimat' or so, where Federation officers just went to a replicator and got a meal for free.

The Federation officers seemed to have small amounts of Latinum, so they could have the occasional drink at Quark's, but did not have enough Latinum to e.g. buy a shuttle.

I always assumed that Federation personal gets a little bit of Latinum from the government, after all they were working in foreign space.

I seem to recall one episode where Quark has a winning streak at dabo. O'Brian funds Bashir to face him. Bashir was very surprised to find O'Brian had any latinum at all. So I don't think its supplied by the government as a matter of course.

As soon as Bajor joins the Federation, Federation law will apply to DS9, so Quark has to change his business or leave.

The Re-launch novels solve this by having Rom make Quark's bar an embassy, so its ferengi soil and ferengi law hold true, allowing him to charge for drinks.

[FaxModem1]

So if DS9 is a special case, how do we explain Federation transports and freighters? Kasidy got her ship somehow. Did she send in a ship requisition form to the Federation bureaucracy? Did she get assigned it since the UFP are moneyless communists? Or did she save up credits until she could buy one?

[BabelHuber]

So if DS9 is a special case, how do we explain Federation transports and freighters? Kasidy got her ship somehow. Did she send in a ship requisition form to the Federation bureaucracy? Did she get assigned it since the UFP are moneyless communists? Or did she save up credits until she could buy one?

Kasidy Yates did not work for the Federation: en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kasidy_Yates-Sisko

Kasidy Danielle Yates-Sisko was a freighter captain and founder of Kasidy Yates Interstellar Freights, and wife of Starfleet Captain Benjamin Sisko. Yates commanded the Xhosa on freight runs, initially as an independent transporter, but later for the Bajoran Ministry of Commerce. Her primary missions were to export cargo from Bajor to its colonies.

We also see other humans who are living outside of Federation space, like Ezri Dax' family. They own a business and seem to be very rich, which is impossible in the Federation itself.

So it seems that there are people who do not share the Federation's vision of human livestyle and hence live outside of the Federation.

[FaxModem1]

First off, the Tigans are Trill, not Human, and we're not even sure if the Trill are Federation members or not.

Second, her being an independent trader does not mean she lives outside the Federation, especially as she seems to do a lot of trade in Federation space. It could only mean she's not affiliated with Starfleet or any major company, not that she's some sort of expatriate. Especially as she gets arrested by the Federation in season four, proving that she's a Federation citizen(or that the Federation arrests non-Federation citizens in regards to the Maquis).

[BabelHuber]

First off, the Tigans are Trill, not Human, and we're not even sure if the Trill are Federation members or not.

True. But in Miles O'Brian's spy episodes, we also see humans living outside of Federation space.

So there seem to be people who do not intend to live in the Federation's communist paradise, but instead chose to live in different societies. The Federation does not seem to care much BTW.

Second, her being an independent trader does not mean she lives outside the Federation, especially as she seems to do a lot of trade in Federation space.

DS9 is not located in Federation space. I recall her doing business outside of the Federation, but I do not remember an episode where she flies into the Federation. But I'm not sure about this.

But in the end it does not matter. It seems unlikely that Kasidy does trade within the Federation, since the Federation seems to be rather communist money-wise.

Hence it is more probable that she trades outside the Federation or is involved in the Federation's export/import business.

It could only mean she's not affiliated with Starfleet or any major company, not that she's some sort of expatriate. Especially as she gets arrested by the Federation in season four, proving that she's a Federation citizen(or that the Federation arrests non-Federation citizens in regards to the Maquis).

Perhaps she is a Federation citizen, perhaps not, you are right. If she isn't a Federation citizen, perhaps she falls under Federation law because she supplied the Marquis from DS9?

IIRC she returned to DS9 on her free will, so she could be arrested and stay together with Sisko after her imprisonment.

So perhaps she would have been able to hide outside of Federation territory to escape the Federation law.

P.S: My point still stays that Quark does simply business under Bajoran law.

Edit: formatting