Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.-Immortality is specifically forbidden for humans.
Not quite. Although many religions have the concept of a "one god", every religion and every sect has it's own interpretation of what that God is and what it wants, acts, or desires out of us. For instance, you can say that there are 3.8 billion monotheists, but 2.2 billion of those are Christian, 1.2 billion of those are Catholic, and 1 billion of those are Latin Catholic (as opposed to Byzantine, etc...)Maybe not, but that's a matter of perspective. 3.8 billion people believe in God, and most of them try and follow his laws.
If his goal is to have him believe in us, then dispense with the tests and just give us undeniable proof. Why the deception?What's the point of testing our faith in God if you just have to raise your eyes and see Him?
See above. If he really does need us in that way, then just stop with the bullshit and appear to the world. I guarantee he'd get WAY more believers (myself included), if he did that...rather than sticking with his current MO.God needs us (Christianity) to believe in his word because we are convinced by it unconditionally. This has difficulty being accepted in our logically demonstrated world of today. It needs a leap of faith. As for whether the messengers failed or not, that's a matter of perspective.
This is important to the discussion of whether or not God is as powerful as the Bible claims he is. If the Bible is supposed to be the definite authority on life, you'd think it would mention more than just the area surrounding the promised land. I would submit that if God does exist, given his apparent lack of power, he might only be a minor deity capable of affecting a small portion of the world at a time. Thus, the Bible makes no mention of places that God had no power to touch.I really try and avoid mixing up archaeological evidence with Biblical events. For example, The Americas and Oceania may not have been colonized at the time Abraham lived. What time period did he live in specifically? Did the flood really extend over the whole planet or solely the land known to Abraham, which would limit it to a small pool around the Middle East... Who knows, also, whether the Americas and Australia has their own prophets and word of god, and were simply not successful or mentioned in the Middle Eastern Bible? The same goes for Asia. No prophets sent there, like, ever?
Going over the whole bible.cadbrowser wrote:Krakonfour?
Is your absence in refusing to respond to the points I and others have brought up mean that you are conceeding? Or are you ignoring this thread now?
Me vs 5 guys, each of them posting, introducing their own problems and not bothering to read each other's answer's?Lagmonster wrote:May I suggest you would find it easier if you narrowed the argument to one specific aspect of one specific god. I have wanted to reply once or twice (or would if it weren't turning into a pile-on), but I keep finding the argument is venturing too broadly to participate in. Failing that, you might want to just gracefully concede the argument instead of keeping pressure on yourself to keep up the pace.
Holy shit, no I don't do that. For fuck's sake man. I mention you are quoting the Bible wrong. Why is that so hard for you to get. How many fucking times do we have to go over this!?!You tell me I'm wrong (nonS), because the Bible is wrong (nonA)...
Conceded I was wrong about God's orders to the Hebrew refugees after the Exodus.cadbrowser wrote:Oh, and not once have you conceeded when you are wrong about quoting the Bible.
God walked with Adam in Eden.Case in point is the fact that you claimed that God has never came to Earth. I corrected you in stating that God (According to the book of Genesis) did in fact WALK in the Garden of Eden WITH Adam. He also came TO Adam and Eve wondering why they were hiding themselves.
So, I would advise you to admit when you are wrong and conceed the point.
Humans are forbidden from immortality by effective application of the physical laws that govern the Universe. No need for direct orders, just build the Universe so that it can't be achieved.You've also not conceeded to being wrong about humans being forbidden from having immortality. The verse quoted to you was incorrect (Metahive used John 3:15, it should've been 3:16)...
How nice of you to remind us that the believers will live forever in Heaven.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As I said before, I don't care about what I discuss, as long as I take the correct steps from premise to conclusion. I don't believe in Christianity, why the hell do I care if it is right or not? By extension, I give even less of a damn if people take the Bible as literally infallible or not.I would also like to direct your attention to Biblical inerrancy and infallibility, which a great and many Christians hold as absolute truth, even in the face of reality!
That's one...Conceded I was wrong about God's orders to the Hebrew refugees after the Exodus.
Are you out of your fucking mind? Where in the fuck did you come up with that bullshit?God walked with Adam in Eden.
Correct.
Eden is not on Earth.
Correct.
Therefore, your argument proves nothing.
Hey fucktard, show me where it it references Heaven. Or are you too fucking stupid to not know was SHOULD NOT PERISH...that meand DIE you fucking moron.How nice of you to remind us that the believers will live forever in Heaven.
Immortality? Sure!
And I've told you that you are not. Your fucking premise is wrong to begin with. You will NEVER have a correct conclusion. You are not arguing from ANY Christian knowledge that I've ever heard of. So you are taking the position of a moron that don't know shit.As I said before, I don't care about what I discuss, as long as I take the correct steps from premise to conclusion.
WTF? If you want to understand Christianity then you MUST understand this concept. Otherwise...AGAIN you're premise is flawed from the beginning. Why do you insist on being this stupid?I give even less of a damn if people take the Bible as literally infallible or not.
No you fucking hairball. Goddamn. Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid or something? Fuck me. This is harder than talking to my ex-wife.Now you bunch just love attacking the scenario, instead of discussing the consequences and the logical steps needed to reach them. At best that can just lead to an invalid question, but for you, the person you're quoting has to be right or wrong.
Slight problem with that. Though the Bible itself offers two conflicting locations for the Garden of Eden, the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates in Genesis, and Lebanon in Ezekiel, almost all Christians believe that the Garden of Eden was somewhere on Earth. Even the Mormons, who believe it was in Jackson County, Missouri, would agree with that. If a cursory Google search could tell me all this, what excuse do you have for not knowing such basic details?krakonfour wrote:God walked with Adam in Eden.
Correct.
Eden is not on Earth.
Correct.
Therefore, your argument proves nothing.
The description of Eden's location corresponds with no possible location on Earth... rivers as described in the Bible simply do not work that way, nor do any traces of their beds been found. Now, if we consider that Eden comes from the Jewish Talmud word for Paradise, then I interpreted that Eden was Heaven and thus God never technically walked on Earth.Executor32 wrote:Slight problem with that. Though the Bible itself offers two conflicting locations for the Garden of Eden, the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates in Genesis, and Lebanon in Ezekiel, almost all Christians believe that the Garden of Eden was somewhere on Earth. Even the Mormons, who believe it was in Jackson County, Missouri, would agree with that. If a cursory Google search could tell me all this, what excuse do you have for not knowing such basic details?krakonfour wrote:God walked with Adam in Eden.
Correct.
Eden is not on Earth.
Correct.
Therefore, your argument proves nothing.
Eh...not quite. It is believed that Eden was located at the convergent point of four rivers, Tigris, Euphrates, Pishon, and Gihon. They no longer converge because the sea level has risen in the last 6,000 years. But back at that time, they all converged at a point in (what is now) the Persian Gulf. That area would have been extremely rich and fertile...putting even the Nile Delta to shame. That's the most likely place for Eden.The description of Eden's location corresponds with no possible location on Earth... rivers as described in the Bible simply do not work that way, nor do any traces of their beds been found.
I know others have corrected you on this, but let me just say that this is the type of asinine batshit lunacy that I've been talking about. This isn't even a theory. This is you ignoring ALL theological and archeological ideas and research and reaching up in your ass to pull this load of shit out. I'm really surprised you haven't been titled yet.The description of Eden's location corresponds with no possible location on Earth... rivers as described in the Bible simply do not work that way, nor do any traces of their beds been found. Now, if we consider that Eden comes from the Jewish Talmud word for Paradise, then I interpreted that Eden was Heaven and thus God never technically walked on Earth.
But that's just a theory.
And you are still completely wrong. But, once you've read the Bible, you will figure out what I'm talking about, maybe. Then I would also recommend that you read other authors and books regarding the variation and similarities on the other denominations out there. This way you can pick through and figure out what the main similarities in beliefs are (which would make up the majority of Christianity) so that you can come back and present arguments competantly. You will also begin to find out that there are differences in perspective; if you argue to those you will also have to consider dissentions even inside the SAME denomination.Either way, no Human has seen God, apart from Adam or Eve who had already seen them before, on Earth.
Fuck you, you dishonest cunt. I am calm. What is this horseshit regarding conversion? Where have I ever, in my posts here, been concerned about you converting me, or whatever? You really ARE dilusional. I am growing exceedingly weary of your lack of comprehension. For several posts now I've been restating the same thing over and over in a vain attempt to get you to understand what it is that you are doing. You keep ignoring them.Cadbrowser, calm down though. No one is trying to convert you back to The One And Only Christianity With Infallibility And Catholic Dogma, or trying to point out how shaky the reasoning behind your atheism is.
Yeah, you surely did. It's all good, it happens to the best of us.Metahive wrote:Fuck, did I really write John 3:15? Teaches me to type away without double-checking.
Wait, what? I'm not Christian, and I know full well that there are tons of examples where someone in the Bible claims to have literally seen god, sometimes face-to-face. In fact, I'm fairly certain Exodus is crammed full of Moses seeing god, up to and including the famously hilarious divine mooning in Exodus 33, v23.cadbrowser wrote:And you are still completely wrong. But, once you've read the Bible, you will figure out what I'm talking about, maybe.Either way, no Human has seen God, apart from Adam or Eve who had already seen them before, on Earth.
No, I was backing up your response to krakonfour where he said humans hadn't seen god, and you said they had as per the Bible, with the specific example of Moses' repeated viewings. Unless you weren't quoting krakonfour, in which case I fucked up the quoting.cadbrowser wrote:
Because he himself created it.krakenfour wrote:Why would God be the driving force behind everything, including evil?
Isaiah : 45:7 wrote: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I had a fun time looking up at all the different translations of the Hebrew word 'Rah' in the Bible.cadbrowser wrote:Isaiah : 45:7 wrote: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Just to interject, suicide is no longer necessarily considered an eternal (or unpardonable) sin, at least in the Catholic Church and hasn't been for some time now. There is more recognition of mental illness and even funeral masses and burials are provided for suicides with no difficulty. It's as much for the comfort of the family as anything else.Eternal_Freedom wrote:Murder is a sin, but not an unforgivable one. The only unforgivable I am aware of is suicide and "blaspheming against the Holy Spirit." Which makes things worse, since God ranks blaspheming against his spirit a more serious crime than murder, rape, genocide etc. Again, that points to him being a psychopath/sociopath/megalomaniac/whatever the correct pyschopathology is.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God. (2212)
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. (1735)
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. (1037)
