Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its meaning?

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energiewende
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by energiewende »

So you would be alright if I keep you as a slave for fifty years and then, once your life savings, family and friends are gone, I chuck you out on the street with "hey, here is a book with some ideas"?
Of course not, but then, it wouldn't be alright to keep me for a slave until I die so that in 1,000 years Italy and Spain can speak similar-ish languages. As I said originally: "...leaving at the end useful institutions and cultural references, which one could view as outweighing the harm if one happens to live in that post-imperial age, at no risk of personal harm one's self.".
also, good job if christianity and feudalism to you are the defining legacies of Rome. I mean, one is not even Roman and the other was a massive advancement in charity for the time....
Christianity was the Roman state ideology at the time of its collapse - of course not for most of its history, but it is what Rome endowed to its successors - while the development of the Roman economy towards feudalism essentially destroyed proto-industrialization. Europe's output didn't recover to the levels of the Roman Republic until the 18th century.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by Thanas »

energiewende wrote:
So you would be alright if I keep you as a slave for fifty years and then, once your life savings, family and friends are gone, I chuck you out on the street with "hey, here is a book with some ideas"?
Of course not, but then, it wouldn't be alright to keep me for a slave until I die so that in 1,000 years Italy and Spain can speak similar-ish languages. As I said originally: "...leaving at the end useful institutions and cultural references, which one could view as outweighing the harm if one happens to live in that post-imperial age, at no risk of personal harm one's self.".
So in other words, the British were better in enslaving India and letting millions starve (as opposed to the Romans who tried to stop starvation when they could) because they gave the Indians the miracle of the free market. You speak as a free-market propagandist who does not know a thing about the way Romans colonized.

But hey, let's check your knowledge. Please list as how you think Roman colonialism benefited the people and then how British colonialism benefited the conquered.
Christianity was the Roman state ideology at the time of its collapse - of course not for most of its history, but it is what Rome endowed to its successors -
Good job not engaging on the main point.
while the development of the Roman economy towards feudalism essentially destroyed proto-industrialization.
Source.
Europe's output didn't recover to the levels of the Roman Republic until the 18th century.
It did not recover to the levels of Imperial Rome until the 18th century. The output of the republic was much less than that of Rome. Otherwise, cite sources.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by K. A. Pital »

It gets worse with the India example, since Britain did not even really develop India's industries, but actively destroyed the proto-industries it had. First viable metallurgy enterprises were brought to India by American investors; before that it was so dependent on British iron and factory-made goods that even the railways which people tend to bring up as colonialist benefits were not built from iron made in India; rails were shipped to India by sea from Britain, helping Britain to stay an industrial powerhouse and helping India stay backwards.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by madd0ct0r »

to answer the origional question about Kipling's thoughts on conoliasation:
Jobson's Amen


BLESSED be the English and all their ways and works.
Cursèd be the Infidels, Hereticks, and Turks!
"Amen," quo' Jobson, " but where I used to lie
Was neither Candle, Bell nor Book to curse my brethren by.
"But a palm-tree in full bearing, bowing down, bowing down,
To a surf that drove unsparing at the brown, walled town
Conches in a temple, oil-lamps in a dome
And a low moon out of Africa said: 'This way home!'"

"Blessèd be the English and all that they profess.
Cursèd be the Savages that prance in nakedness!"
"Amen," quo' Jobson, "but where I used to lie
Was neither shirt nor pantaloons to catch my brethren by:

"But a well-wheel slowly creaking, going round, going round,
By a water-channel leaking over drowned, warm ground -
Parrots very busy in the trellised pepper-vine -
And a high sun over Asia shouting: 'Rise and shine !'"

"Blessèd be the English and everything they own.
Cursèd be the Infidels that bow to wood and stone!"
"Amen," quo' Jobson, "but where I used to lie
Was neither pew nor Gospelleer to save my brethren by:

"But a desert stretched and stricken, left and right, left and right,
Where the piled mirages thicken under white-hot light -
A skull beneath a sand-hill and a viper coiled inside -
And a red wind out of Libya roaring: 'Run and hide!'"

"Blessèd be the English and all they make or do.
Cursèd be the Hereticks who doubt that this is true!"
"Amen," quo' Jobson, "but where I mean to die
Is neither rule nor calliper to judge the matter by:

"But Himalaya heavenward-heading, sheer and vast, sheer and vast,
In a million summits bedding on the last world's past -
A certain sacred mountain where the scented cedars climb,
And - the feet of my Beloved hurrying back through Time! "
and
We and They


FATHER, Mother, and Me
Sister and Auntie say
All the people like us are We,
And every one else is They.
And They live over the sea,
While We live over the way,
But - would you believe it? - They look upon We
As only a sort of They !
We eat pork and beef
With cow-horn-handled knives.
They who gobble Their rice off a leaf,
Are horrified out of Their lives;
And They who live up a tree,
And feast on grubs and clay,
(Isn't it scandalous?) look upon We
As a simply disgusting They!

We shoot birds with a gun.
They stick lions with spears.
Their full-dress is un-.
We dress up to Our ears.
They like Their friends for tea.
We like Our friends to stay;
And, after all that, They look upon We
As an utterly ignorant They!

We eat kitcheny food.
We have doors that latch.
They drink milk or blood,
Under an open thatch.
We have Doctors to fee.
They have Wizards to pay.
And (impudent heathen!) They look upon We
As a quite impossible They!

All good people agree,
And all good people say,
All nice people, like Us, are We
And every one else is They:
But if you cross over the sea,
Instead of over the way,
You may end by (think of it!) looking on We
As only a sort of They !
seem to cover it nicely.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by energiewende »

Thanas wrote:
energiewende wrote:
So you would be alright if I keep you as a slave for fifty years and then, once your life savings, family and friends are gone, I chuck you out on the street with "hey, here is a book with some ideas"?
Of course not, but then, it wouldn't be alright to keep me for a slave until I die so that in 1,000 years Italy and Spain can speak similar-ish languages. As I said originally: "...leaving at the end useful institutions and cultural references, which one could view as outweighing the harm if one happens to live in that post-imperial age, at no risk of personal harm one's self.".
So in other words, the British were better in enslaving India and letting millions starve (as opposed to the Romans who tried to stop starvation when they could) because they gave the Indians the miracle of the free market. You speak as a free-market propagandist who does not know a thing about the way Romans colonized.
Is it not a miracle? Well, not really, once you have a free society and scientific method, it's pretty obvious, like Newtonian mechanics. But the results are nonetheless spectacular. Why did India have famines, but not Britain?

The biggest problem with British colonialism in India is indeed that it wasn't very Roman, but this goes against the prejudices of most anti-colonialists. Britain mostly ruled through native intermediaries and retained the native methods of governance. So India remained feudalist state and therefore poor. I have really little or no defence of British rule in India as it was happening, other than that the alternative would probably have been similar (and that's a weak justification); the deposition of representative democracy, the english common law, and an english-speaking educated elite afterwards however has proved very useful, and should prove moreso as the 21st century continues.
But hey, let's check your knowledge. Please list as how you think Roman colonialism benefited the people and then how British colonialism benefited the conquered.
Roman colonialism prevented wars between the states. Other than that, it was pretty horrible, just dark ages banditry dressed up in the fine writings and architecture of a tiny elite. An
while the development of the Roman economy towards feudalism essentially destroyed proto-industrialization.
Source.
Europe's output didn't recover to the levels of the Roman Republic until the 18th century.
It did not recover to the levels of Imperial Rome until the 18th century. The output of the republic was much less than that of Rome. Otherwise, cite sources.
Going by the few direct observables (which are nonetheless quite informative and consistent):

Image

Image

the economic output of Rome peaks either in the final 50 years of the Republic or the first 50 years of the Empire (during which time Augustus had not substantially changed its economic institutions). The most interesting thing about these data is that Rome's collapse, and even its major civil wars, are not clearly distinguishable. The Empire itself was throttling the economy, this began before and continued during the reigns of the "five good Emperors", and the economic collapse preceeded the political collapse.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by K. A. Pital »

energiewende wrote:I have really little or no defence of British rule in India as it was happening, other than that the alternative would probably have been similar (and that's a weak justification)
Let's just think about this for a moment. So you don't really have a defence of British rule in Inda. It is true: even a cursory glance at the facts would demonstrate that Britain did not develop India's industries and left it feudal and backwards; perhaps in some areas even more backwards than India already was, with all that Victorian dress code and cultural conservatism perpetrating a feudal-patriarchal hierarchy that played into the already-severe caste system issues. The only statement you can make is a fictitious claim that India would have been worse off independent or even under another colonial power, of which there were many.

And yet for some reason you spend a lot of time defending British colonialism in India right here on this board, even though no arguments for it can be found.

Why?
energiewende wrote:Why did India have famines, but not Britain?
A better question would be why independent India stopped having famines which it experienced under the British right until the very end of their misrule.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by Thanas »

energiewende wrote: Is it not a miracle? Well, not really, once you have a free society and scientific method, it's pretty obvious, like Newtonian mechanics. But the results are nonetheless spectacular. Why did India have famines, but not Britain?
Because Britain exported the foodstuffs from India to Britain by force thereby causing shortages, or even worse, not doing anything to help and even prohibiting help as during the Bengal famines.
Wikipedia wrote:The regions in which the famine occurred included especially the modern Indian states of Bihar and West Bengal, but the famine also extended into Odisha and Jharkhand as well as modern Bangladesh. Among the worst affected areas were Birbhum and Murshidabad in Bengal, and Tirhut, Champaran and Bettiah in Bihar.

A partial shortfall in crops, considered nothing out of the ordinary, occurred in 1768 and was followed in late 1769 by more severe conditions. By September 1769 there was a severe drought, and alarming reports were coming in of rural distress. These were, however, ignored by company officers.

By early 1770 there was starvation, and by mid-1770 deaths from starvation were occurring on a large scale. Later in 1770 good rainfall resulted in a good harvest and the famine abated. However, other shortfalls occurred in the following years, raising the total death toll. About ten million people,[6][7] approximately one-third of the population of the affected area, are estimated to have died in the famine.

As a result of the famine large areas were depopulated and returned to jungle for decades to come, as the survivors migrated en masse in a search for food. Many cultivated lands were abandoned—much of Birbhum, for instance, returned to jungle and was virtually impassable for decades afterwards. From 1772 on, bands of bandits and Thugs became an established feature of Bengal, and were only brought under control by punitive actions in the 1780s.

The famine occurred largely due to the British East India Company's policies in Bengal. [8]

As a trading body, the first remit of the company was to maximise its profits and with taxation rights, the profits to be obtained from Bengal came from land tax as well as trade tariffs. As lands came under company control, the land tax was typically raised fivefold what it had been – from 10% to up to 50% of the value of the agricultural produce.[7] In the first years of the rule of the British East India Company, the total land tax income was doubled and most of this revenue flowed out of the country.[9] As the famine approached its height in April 1770, the Company announced that the land tax for the following year was to be increased by a further 10%.

Sushil Chaudhury writes that the destruction of food crops in Bengal to make way for opium poppy cultivation for export reduced food availability and contributed to the famine.[10] The company is also criticised for ordering the farmers to plant indigo instead of rice, as well as forbidding the "hoarding" of rice. This prevented traders and dealers from laying in reserves that in other times would have tided the population over lean periods.

By the time of the famine, monopolies in grain trading had been established by the company and its agents. The company had no plan for dealing with the grain shortage, and actions were only taken insofar as they affected the mercantile and trading classes. Land revenue decreased by 14% during the affected year, but recovered rapidly. According to McLane, the first governor-general of British India, Warren Hastings, acknowledged "violent" tax collecting after 1771: revenues earned by the Company were higher in 1771 than in 1768.[11] Globally, the profit of the company increased from fifteen million rupees in 1765 to thirty million in 1777.
There is your free market miracle.


Do take note that before Britain had colonies to exploit food shortages were pretty common in Britain.

The biggest problem with British colonialism in India is indeed that it wasn't very Roman, but this goes against the prejudices of most anti-colonialists. Britain mostly ruled through native intermediaries and retained the native methods of governance.
So did the Romans. The difference is that Romans widely accepted other cultures into their society and made them citizens. the British made them slaves.
So India remained feudalist state and therefore poor. I have really little or no defence of British rule in India as it was happening, other than that the alternative would probably have been similar (and that's a weak justification); the deposition of representative democracy, the english common law, and an english-speaking educated elite afterwards however has proved very useful, and should prove moreso as the 21st century continues.
Stas dealt with this nicely.
Roman colonialism prevented wars between the states. Other than that, it was pretty horrible, just dark ages banditry dressed up in the fine writings and architecture of a tiny elite. An
.... :lol: That is really all that can be said about this.

while the development of the Roman economy towards feudalism essentially destroyed proto-industrialization.


Source.
the economic output of Rome peaks either in the final 50 years of the Republic or the first 50 years of the Empire (during which time Augustus had not substantially changed its economic institutions). The most interesting thing about these data is that Rome's collapse, and even its major civil wars, are not clearly distinguishable. The Empire itself was throttling the economy, this began before and continued during the reigns of the "five good Emperors", and the economic collapse preceeded the political collapse.
Your views are wrong. I suggest you actually cite works that focus on the Imperial Age and not "world" production. See for example the work by Walter Scheidel (which I cited here before) and the very useful book "Quantifying the Roman economy".

Shipwrecks are a bad indicator for a variety of reasons. The graphic is useless as it does not show tonnage nor quality of wrecks. Then, do you know why we have less shipwrecks in late antiquity despite all indicators going up? Because ships in late antiquity did use barrels instead of amphorae we have less surviving shipwrecks. (Mediterranean sea eats away at ships and most ancient wrecks only survive because the amphorae stabilised the hull and prevented it from collapsing and being swallowed by the very soft mediterranean sand). Then, of course we got advantages in navigation and ship size being developed during Imperial Rome which means that ships wrecked less. So shipwrecks are not a good indicator at all.

As to the Empire throttling the economy, this is beyond unreal.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by energiewende »

Thanas wrote:
energiewende wrote: Is it not a miracle? Well, not really, once you have a free society and scientific method, it's pretty obvious, like Newtonian mechanics. But the results are nonetheless spectacular. Why did India have famines, but not Britain?
Because Britain exported the foodstuffs from India to Britain by force thereby causing shortages, or even worse, not doing anything to help and even prohibiting help as during the Bengal famines.

There is your free market miracle.

Stas dealt with this nicely.
Both Stas Bush and yourself are misrepresenting my position. I don't think British rule in India was much better than native rule (or much worse, or even much different), which was itself bad. Rather, it left behind useful institutions.
Do take note that before Britain had colonies to exploit food shortages were pretty common in Britain.
This is simply pseudo-historical claptrap. Britain did not import any significant quantity of food from India, forcibly or not. Even your own quote does not substantiate this. To the extent Britain was dependent on food imports, they came principally from Latin America (or in the form of natural fertilizers) and later from the white settler colonies. The last famine in England occured about 100 years before the conquest of Bengal.
The biggest problem with British colonialism in India is indeed that it wasn't very Roman, but this goes against the prejudices of most anti-colonialists. Britain mostly ruled through native intermediaries and retained the native methods of governance.
So did the Romans. The difference is that Romans widely accepted other cultures into their society and made them citizens. the British made them slaves.[/quote]
Apart from literally making their war captives into slaves. The British Empire abolished slavery, which was one of the few truly sparkling contributions it made in its own lifetime.
Roman colonialism prevented wars between the states. Other than that, it was pretty horrible, just dark ages banditry dressed up in the fine writings and architecture of a tiny elite. An
.... :lol: That is really all that can be said about this.
Really? Do you think that the Roman Empire would be so admired if the self-justification of its elite writers had not survived? (as the Carthaginian, Parthian, etc. writings did not). Is there any antique power from which we have extensive written records that we don't regard favourably?
Your views are wrong. I suggest you actually cite works that focus on the Imperial Age and not "world" production. See for example the work by Walter Scheidel (which I cited here before) and the very useful book "Quantifying the Roman economy".

Shipwrecks are a bad indicator for a variety of reasons. The graphic is useless as it does not show tonnage nor quality of wrecks. Then, do you know why we have less shipwrecks in late antiquity despite all indicators going up? Because ships in late antiquity did use barrels instead of amphorae we have less surviving shipwrecks. (Mediterranean sea eats away at ships and most ancient wrecks only survive because the amphorae stabilised the hull and prevented it from collapsing and being swallowed by the very soft mediterranean sand). Then, of course we got advantages in navigation and ship size being developed during Imperial Rome which means that ships wrecked less. So shipwrecks are not a good indicator at all.

As to the Empire throttling the economy, this is beyond unreal.
Please quote relevant passages from these books.

I think it's really hard to argue that at least late Rome, having established a feudal plantation economy, depopulated the cities, and made trades and professions into hereditary guilts, extorting taxes in kind, had not substantially destroyed the former economy. The only question is whether the decline began before the civil wars, and I'd be intrigued if these books present any new empirical data.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by Thanas »

energiewende wrote:Both Stas Bush and yourself are misrepresenting my position. I don't think British rule in India was much better than native rule (or much worse, or even much different), which was itself bad. Rather, it left behind useful institutions.
Your whole argument why British rule was better than Roman Rule was because they left behind "useful institutions", which you repeat ad nauseam. Which does jack shit and misses the point. If the standard of living is lowered and the standard of industrialization is lowered institutions are not worth anything at all for the period of colonization. Whatever happened after colonization (and especially considering these institutions managed to get transferred to other countries without colonization) is not an argument as for why one type of colonization is better than the other.

If the world GDP share of India dropped from 22.6% in the 1700s to 3.8% in 1952 then your colonialism and your institutions are worth nothing. Source: Late Victorian Holocausts: El Nino famines and the making of the Third World by M. Davis, London, Verso Books, 2001
This is simply pseudo-historical claptrap. Britain did not import any significant quantity of food from India, forcibly or not.
This is a lie. Britain imported substantial amounts of foodstuff from her colonies (note that I said colonies, not India).
To sum up, about the time of the Queen's death— Canada was sending home one-half of her total exports—wheat, bacon, cheese, salt, fish, eggs, apples, furs, skins, leather, timber and wood-pulp—receiving in return one-quarter of her total imports from Great Britain.

Australia also sent half her exports home. Amongst these were wool, tallow, fresh mutton, preserved meat, silver and gold ore, hides, furs, skins, wheat and flour, butter, rabbits, and wine. She received in return one-half of her imports.

New Zealand sent three-quarters of her total exports home, including wool, gold, grain, hides, skins, butter, and cheese, receiving in return three-fifths of her imports.

South Africa sent four-fifths of her total exports home, including gold, diamonds, and other precious stones, ostrich feathers, skins, hides, furs, receiving in return three-fifths of her imports.

India sent a quarter of her exports home, including rice, cotton and silk, jute, oil, seeds, tea, coffee, and teak. She received from Great Britain half her total imports.
(The reign of Queen Victoria, M.B. Synge)
Even your own quote does not substantiate this. To the extent Britain was dependent on food imports, they came principally from Latin America (or in the form of natural fertilizers) and later from the white settler colonies. The last famine in England occured about 100 years before the conquest of Bengal.
British colonialism in India caused the collapse of Indian agriculture. 1877, when millions died as a result of famine, was also a record year for Indian food exports to Britain. (Again Mike Davis)

Apart from literally making their war captives into slaves. The British Empire abolished slavery, which was one of the few truly sparkling contributions it made in its own lifetime.
Roman slavery =/= British slavery. Also, can one nation truly claim as a credit the abolishment of something it had a large part in creating in the first place?
Really? Do you think that the Roman Empire would be so admired if the self-justification of its elite writers had not survived? (as the Carthaginian, Parthian, etc. writings did not). Is there any antique power from which we have extensive written records that we don't regard favourably?
What self-justifications of what elite writers are you talking about? Rome is not a monolith. For every Livy there is a Tacitus.

Please quote relevant passages from these books.
For what? You made the claim that Rome throttled the economy, you should be the one presenting the figures. Real economic figures by real economic historians.
I think it's really hard to argue that at least late Rome, having established a feudal plantation economy,
...which existed under the Republic as well. Also, feudal is the wrong word for it. No Roman aristocrat was a feudal lord.
depopulated the cities
Figures for that. Now. Rome exhibited constant urban growth under the Empire. Heck, North Africa in late antiquity is a mass of cities. Gaul had no large cities before the Empire. Neither did Britain or Germany. The balkans had little cities before the Empire. Yet all regions did for as long as the Empire existed.
, and made trades and professions into hereditary guilts
Which existed before, even under the Republic. And before you stonewall I want you to cite the specific guilds you mean.
extorting taxes in kind
Sources.
, had not substantially destroyed the former economy. The only question is whether the decline began before the civil wars, and I'd be intrigued if these books present any new empirical data.
Your data is vastly outmatched and vastly outdated if you think the above.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by Broomstick »

Interesting. The Indian famines were only 10 years after what the Irish called the Great Hunger and others called the Potato Famine. And for much the same reason - the British insisted on collecting taxes and exporting for profit before feeding the locals. The result was Ireland losing half its population, and they still have not reached the same population numbers 150 years later.

And then the Dutch East India company does the exact same thing to India.
energiewende wrote:
Thanas wrote:Do take note that before Britain had colonies to exploit food shortages were pretty common in Britain.
This is simply pseudo-historical claptrap. Britain did not import any significant quantity of food from India, forcibly or not.
Britain did not need to import "significant quantity of food" to the UK, it only had to export sufficiently quantities of food from a colony to leave the natives starving.

Imperial colonies from the 1500's on were mostly about extraction of wealth.
energiewende wrote:Apart from literally making their war captives into slaves. The British Empire abolished slavery, which was one of the few truly sparkling contributions it made in its own lifetime.
Er... abolished it only after first spreading it to its colonies... well, let's be honest here, at that time period just about everyone practiced some form of slavery. It was the British that established the infamous "Triangular Trade" and the notorious Atlantic Middle Passage. Britain didn't outlaw the slave trade until 1807 and didn't outlaw slavery for those already in bondage until 1833, so if they were ahead of the curve it wasn't by that much.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

Post by K. A. Pital »

I really don't understand the institutions argument if by your own words, energiewende, India remained feudal and backwards. You know that this also means backwards institutions, right?
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:I haven't read all but a tiny bit (I read That Day fairly recently) of Kipling's works in years so I might be misremembering some, but the stuff you're saying isn't really convincing me my impression is wrong? That Kipling's primary issue with colonialism is that it can be costly for the invader?
PainRack wrote:Namely, he knew that Imperialism was dreadful, it was ignoble, but yet, Kipling doesn't reject the British Empire. And as an interventionist, he did see the need for someone to bring about the benefits of his civilisation to someone else.
I don't understand how you think this refutes the idea that he celebrates colonialism? What does one have to do to actually fall under that definition, for you?

He's someone who romanticises the conquered empire, who pushes the need to save other people by force (no matter the cost to them) for their own good, and his only actual critique or honest examination of it is on how it affects the mother country.

I mean, if there's writings of his I'm not aware of that actually refute this, I would like to hear it; it's good to hear when people I find monstrous aren't as bad as they seemed.
The Man who would be King is the perfect example of this.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8147

In other words, hubris and pride.


And again, I don't understand how you can be so... shallow.
Again. Kipling does endorse the idea of Imperialism and colonialism. That IS what he does.
However, its too shallow to claim that he doesn't know the impact this has, on EVERYONE. You been stuck entirely on the concept that Kipling is only aware of the costs to the mother country but ignores other things.

For one, we do know from Kipling propaganda text, as well as his personal views about the Germans in WW1 that he endorses the idea of liberty.

Now, if he didn't see the costs of that on the people, explain WHY in the Jungle Book he makes the men of Aghanistan to be freedom loving people, who now have to answer to the Viceroy of India BECAUSE they loved their freedom and thus was unable to defeat the British?
Then I heard an old grizzled, long-haired Central Asian chief, who had come down with the Amir, asking questions of a native officer.

"Now," said he, "in what manner was this wonderful thing done?"

And the officer answered, "An order was given, and they obeyed."

"But are the beasts as wise as the men?" said the chief.

"They obey, as the men do. Mule, horse, elephant, or bullock, he obeys his driver, and the driver his sergeant, and the sergeant his lieutenant, and the lieutenant his captain, and the captain his major, and the major his colonel, and the colonel his brigadier commanding three regiments, and the brigadier the general, who obeys the Viceroy, who is the servant of the Empress. Thus it is done."

"Would it were so in Afghanistan!" said the chief, "for there we obey only our own wills."

"And for that reason," said the native officer, twirling his mustache, "your Amir whom you do not obey must come here and take orders from our Viceroy."
Hmm.... quite an explicit statement isn't it? The freedom loving afghan people has lost their freedom.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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energiewende wrote:If we look at the history of China, a domestic change may have involved far greater atrocities and still arrived at just another aristocratic dictatorship, but with a different set of aristocrats. Alternatively the Princely states may have shepherded in free market constitutional monarchies in the late 1800s, industrialised like Japan, and become leading members of the free world a century earlier. Personally I think the former is more likely than the later, but we can't ultimately know for sure.

I suspect history will remember British, and possibly French, colonialism a lot more kindly than it is viewed now. Not to say it will be viewed as an unalloyed good thing, but more like the Roman Empire, inflicting injustice and pain for some time but leaving at the end useful institutions and cultural references, which one could view as outweighing the harm if one happens to live in that post-imperial age, at no risk of personal harm one's self.

The view that colonialism can forcibly construct free and prosperous countries, on the other hand, has proved to be a failure. Unfortunately so has native-rule democracy; if it helps, it's certainly far from a panacea.
Bullshit.
The Qin dynasty reverted back to a more freer feudal state concept in the form of the Han. The Tang was more cosmopolitan, endorsed more property and female rights, less xenophobic than the Song and the Ming which followed, or the Sui it replaced.
And aristocratic dictatorship is laughable since the Sui Dynasty and subsequent dynasties like the Song, Ming removed that utterly with the whole Imperial Examinations. In particular, the spread of education in the Ming dynasty became more and more widespread such that the examination cells were over a thousand in the Beijing capital, and these were the finalists from county and provincial examinations.


The power of the Emperor itself varied from dynasty to dynasty, or even leader to leader... in the Qing for example, the personal power of the Emperor relied on his leadership, this even as the Imperial powers were significantly more centralised in offices. If the Qing dynasty had reformed and liberalised, its possible to imagine a less xenophobic dynasty and a more legalistic one, since they do have a code of law and etc. Albeit, amended more by Imperial decree than the Ming constitution.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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Broomstick wrote:Interesting. The Indian famines were only 10 years after what the Irish called the Great Hunger and others called the Potato Famine. And for much the same reason - the British insisted on collecting taxes and exporting for profit before feeding the locals. The result was Ireland losing half its population, and they still have not reached the same population numbers 150 years later.
Is that true? I can't cite the book at the moment but two of the books I read about the Potato famine made the fault to be more of British ideology than exporting food and taxes.

The main fault was that British food aid was relatively limited and short term, the soup kitchens, while limited did great work but they were soon shut down in favour for the poorhouse because of ideology and costs. Irish landlords kicking out their tenants and etc were also the result of the economic situation and the British dedicated attempt to reform the system by selling to British farmers and techniques only made matters worse.

Rents were quite abysmal but the fact that the lords themself was responsible for feeding the hungry made it an economic imperative for the owners to kick them out, both to reduce costs as well as the fact that they gave relative little rent to help compensate for costs. Then there's also the timeline of events and etc..............


For food exports, the data show that food aid in the form of American corn and etc vastly exceeded any Irish exports and this was a propaganda myth by Irish patriots.... There is the timing argument but it would have taken time for food aid to arrive from overseas.......
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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Broomstick wrote:Interesting. The Indian famines were only 10 years after what the Irish called the Great Hunger and others called the Potato Famine. And for much the same reason - the British insisted on collecting taxes and exporting for profit before feeding the locals. The result was Ireland losing half its population, and they still have not reached the same population numbers 150 years later.

And then the Dutch East India company does the exact same thing to India.
Correction: the Dutch East India company went defunct on 31 December 1799 and was before that chiefly active in what we call Indonesia today, not India. It was responsible for a great many awful things but not this one: by the time of the Indian famines in the mid to late 1800s The Netherlands no longer had any colonies in India. I suspect you mean the East India Company, the British one.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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PainRack wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Interesting. The Indian famines were only 10 years after what the Irish called the Great Hunger and others called the Potato Famine. And for much the same reason - the British insisted on collecting taxes and exporting for profit before feeding the locals. The result was Ireland losing half its population, and they still have not reached the same population numbers 150 years later.
Is that true? I can't cite the book at the moment but two of the books I read about the Potato famine made the fault to be more of British ideology than exporting food and taxes.
As so often, the tragedy involved involved a number of factors. However, records indicate that harvests of foodstuffs other than potatoes were doing quite well but those crops weren't used to feed the Irish masses, potatoes were, and the landlords exported most of the other crops for profit, or ate them themselves leaving little to nothing for the majority of Irish.

As for the population drop - in the 1850's Ireland's population is believed to have been around 8 million. During the famine years approximately 2 million died and 2 million emigrated, resulting in a 50% reduction in population. Today, Ireland's population is about 6.5 million so no, the population has not recovered its former numbers.
The main fault was that British food aid was relatively limited and short term, the soup kitchens, while limited did great work but they were soon shut down in favour for the poorhouse because of ideology and costs.
The British aid, such as it was, was also mostly confined to the north and east, areas that were heavily Protestant and Anglophone, and urban. The Gaelic-speaking, Catholic, rural areas pretty much got nothing.
For food exports, the data show that food aid in the form of American corn and etc vastly exceeded any Irish exports and this was a propaganda myth by Irish patriots....
Again, it wasn't a matter of how important the exported food was to Britain, it was that exporting it removed food from areas that desperately needed it.

The system was set up so that the Irish farmed all sorts of things, but actually subsisted on potatoes. When the potatoes were gone the system did not replace them, leaving the Irish workers nothing to eat even as wheat and other products were loaded onto ships and sailed away.
Siege wrote:Correction: the Dutch East India company went defunct on 31 December 1799 and was before that chiefly active in what we call Indonesia today, not India. It was responsible for a great many awful things but not this one: by the time of the Indian famines in the mid to late 1800s The Netherlands no longer had any colonies in India. I suspect you mean the East India Company, the British one.
You are correct, I confused the names but meant the East India Company.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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Stas Bush wrote:I really don't understand the institutions argument if by your own words, energiewende, India remained feudal and backwards. You know that this also means backwards institutions, right?
Energiewende views the free market as this intangible magic thing, analogous to, say, "grace" in Christianity. It saves economic sinners, without those sinners actually needing to do anything or carry out any works to justify their salvation. A nation can receive grace from some other nation as if by magic, without any need to actually reform its economy, or actually build anything.

It counts as "introducing the free market" to India if Britain colonializes the place, even if what Britain actually does is to explicitly ban the Indians from even trying to start up certain industries (like steel in the 19th century, or salt production from 1882 on through the early 1900s). Even if Britain actively seeks to ship food out of India that would be very much in demand in India, rather than even seriously trying to find Indian buyers for Indian grain needed to prevent other Indians from starving.

We also see him do this in other threads, where he calls things "free market" that bear no resemblance to a free market, because he is unable to interpret economic success without retroactively declaring it to be the product of 'freedom,' and unable to imagine a lack of success in the presence of 'freedom.' Therefore, if there is success, or contact with the successful, it must represent a spread of 'freedom,' even if what actually results from the contact in the long run is poverty and ruin.

Because this is the doctrine of economic salvation by economic grace, not by economic works.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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Broomstick wrote: As so often, the tragedy involved involved a number of factors. However, records indicate that harvests of foodstuffs other than potatoes were doing quite well but those crops weren't used to feed the Irish masses, potatoes were, and the landlords exported most of the other crops for profit, or ate them themselves leaving little to nothing for the majority of Irish.
For a multitude of reasons.
1. Cash crops were generally too expensive for the Irish peasants to purchase. Indeed, its the reason why the potato and potato based husbandry such as pigs and buttermilk from animals is the key element in Irish diets.

2. The existence of such cash crops is dwarfed by the amount of food aid sent to Ireland. Remember, after the first two years, the main impact of the famine was not food scarcity, but rather, the inability of the Irish to purchase said food as the traditional economic broke down.

3. Lastly, the data shows that food exports were generally small scale compared to the amount of food aid sent in.

The British aid, such as it was, was also mostly confined to the north and east, areas that were heavily Protestant and Anglophone, and urban. The Gaelic-speaking, Catholic, rural areas pretty much got nothing.
I was under the impression that this was due to adminstrative difficulties, as well as the fact that certain parishes were richer than others and thus better able to engage in charity. But then again, I don't have the library book on hand for reference so I could be wrong, is an online source available?
Again, it wasn't a matter of how important the exported food was to Britain, it was that exporting it removed food from areas that desperately needed it.
And again, the British sent in large amount of food aid .Hence, the importance of exported food somehow playing a critical role in aggravating food scarcity is a propaganda piece, the only argument left is the timing and this is due to market times required to obtain sufficient cereal for Ireland.
The system was set up so that the Irish farmed all sorts of things, but actually subsisted on potatoes. When the potatoes were gone the system did not replace them, leaving the Irish workers nothing to eat even as wheat and other products were loaded onto ships and sailed away.
They did replace it. They attempted to replace it by using the poorhouse to provide employment to Irish, so they could purchase food. American corn replaced the potato and we have examples of just how....... difficult it proved to distribute. Part of the reasons were cultural, the rest was food based. The Irish for example undercooked American meal, thus, suffering indigestion and malnutrition, then there was the debate regarding whether one should distribute cooked meal vs uncooked meal.... although this became unimportant since the soup kitchens as part of an overall relief program only lasted one year of the blight.

The remaining years were replaced by the British poorhouse and economic employment at rock bottom prices, doing extremely hard labour such as roads, while the wages were actually insufficient to purchase an adequate meal. But even so, the blight impact on food scarcity only lasted another two years or so before the remainding, severe dislocation and impact of the famine was caused by the economic impact. Well, that and farmers ate their seed potatoes due to scarcity during this period......................


I mean, we can honestly fault the British for many things here. For example, food relief was severely hampered by ideology, such as the oft repeated statements that they should not hinder private enterprise, well, in the first year anyway. Then there's also the no freeloading Irish mentality, with its impact on the poorhouses and indeed, the soup kitchens with the cooked vs uncooked meal.

Again, during the two years in 1845 to 1847, when food scarcity was the problem, large import of American meal helped relieved the problem of scarcity. The problem was in 1847 and the aftermath, when the utter destruction of the food harvest begun the process of stripping tenant farmers, and the real problem can be blamed on how British aid was structured, the Poor Law and the subsequent actions Irish lords had to take.
British soldiers guarding food exports didn't take place in an environment where food didn't exist. It took place in an environment where food prices were too high and the existing Poor Houses was inadequate. Hell, even the relief works were inadequate as the labourers needed more calories and had to purchase food at dearer prices.

Food subsitution did work in 1846, with American meal although there was a delay due to logistics, but it simply wouldn't have worked in 1848 because by then, the problem was money. And the fault can be placed on British niggardly behaviour in not giving more aid, to what was supposed to be an intergral part of the British homeland.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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PainRack wrote:2. The existence of such cash crops is dwarfed by the amount of food aid sent to Ireland. Remember, after the first two years, the main impact of the famine was not food scarcity, but rather, the inability of the Irish to purchase said food as the traditional economic broke down.
It is nevertheless an exercise in disastrous callousness when food is being exported from a place of famine. All this does is shift the blame from conscious British imperial policy to unconsciously destructive market forces.

I feel that this is a textbook case of why, like evolution, the free market is a blind idiot god. Insofar as "market forces" led to abuses under colonial rule, the colonialists are no less to blame than if they had made it happen on purpose.

One must grant that the blame is slightly lessened if Ireland was receiving net imports of calories during the famine, and if British policies allowed that.
Again, during the two years in 1845 to 1847, when food scarcity was the problem, large import of American meal helped relieved the problem of scarcity. The problem was in 1847 and the aftermath, when the utter destruction of the food harvest begun the process of stripping tenant farmers, and the real problem can be blamed on how British aid was structured, the Poor Law and the subsequent actions Irish lords had to take.

British soldiers guarding food exports didn't take place in an environment where food didn't exist. It took place in an environment where food prices were too high and the existing Poor Houses was inadequate. Hell, even the relief works were inadequate as the labourers needed more calories and had to purchase food at dearer prices.

Food subsitution did work in 1846, with American meal although there was a delay due to logistics, but it simply wouldn't have worked in 1848 because by then, the problem was money. And the fault can be placed on British niggardly behaviour in not giving more aid, to what was supposed to be an intergral part of the British homeland.
And I like how this correctly identifies the scope and nature of the problem.

[Please note that the previous part of this response to you is not intended as direct disagreement or criticism]

Again, I feel that governments and peoples are responsible for what happens to their colonial subjects as a result of "market forces."
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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Simon_Jester wrote:
PainRack wrote:2. The existence of such cash crops is dwarfed by the amount of food aid sent to Ireland. Remember, after the first two years, the main impact of the famine was not food scarcity, but rather, the inability of the Irish to purchase said food as the traditional economic broke down.
It is nevertheless an exercise in disastrous callousness when food is being exported from a place of famine. All this does is shift the blame from conscious British imperial policy to unconsciously destructive market forces.
Well, Mitchell argument does make sense, in that during the previous famine, preventing food export helped kept food prices low in Ireland.
One must grant that the blame is slightly lessened if Ireland was receiving net imports of calories during the famine, and if British policies allowed that.
Well....... not really. Ireland was STILL a net exporter of food during the famine. The difference is that food aid helped replace the scarcity of the potato. Indeed, we know it worked well because everyone acknowledged that the British response during the first year was....'adequate' to meet the problem and the problems was more with the unevenness of aid and of course, improperly prepared meal.

Free market 'god' however is the perfect example of the problem. We remember "Irish property must support Irish poverty ". But what people forget was British ministers statements claiming that soup kitchens was distorting the free market. Or how food aid must not distort the market and etc. And in subsequent years, how aid was a waste of money and other free market ideologies.........


There are real sources of grievances with the British management of the famine. But Mitchell argument is a bit too political.
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Re: Kipling's "The White Man's Burden" - He discuss its mean

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A short-term ban on exports usually leads to a price collapse since whatever excesses hoarded have to be sold to the domestic populace at whatever is the equilibrium price - there's a sudden supply spike. Removing it after famine has passed usually allows to resume agricultural production at previously recorded levels. Not banning export at a time of famine leads to a spike in prices since hoarders understand (1) starving people would be very likely giving their last - whatever! - to survive and (2) selling abroad is still lucrative. So you get a double short-term benefit if you let people starve. A hoarder may rise from a mere mid-rank trader to a person with vast capitals just over 1-2 years of famine. Of course, death of compatriots will be the price, but many simply don't care.
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