Miles O'Brien's Bar tab

[RogueIce]

I thought I put this in earlier, but I guess not. But I saw Beverly Crusher's purchases at Farpoint as using a "Federation Express" card. Basically she can, more or less, charge it to Starfleet and then the merchant will collect from there.

I'd say it's pretty obvious that the Federation has some sort of monetary exchange in place for dealing with other governments. So I'm guessing that, for Starfleet or other personnel are working in border areas or assigned to places "outside" the Federation (like DS9), the UFP gives them some kind of 'paycheck' or charge account or whatever so they can interact with those around them, trade, get souvenirs, whatever. I don't know what kind of limits there are to this, though I'd imagine there's something in place to prevent young Starfleet officers from going nuts with the UFP's money. Probably credit limits and/or CO's approval for non-Federation transactions. So I'd imagine your typical Ensign probably can't 'charge' for latinum, but Dax can because Sisko would rubberstamp it for her.

Or maybe they can. There were Feds at the Dabo tables, after all. So it's probably just credit limits based on rank, years of service, how much Sisko happens to like you, etc.

Jake Sisko obviously couldn't do any of that, though. As the dependent of a Starfleet officer he'd probably be restricted to his dad's account, and since he wanted that baseball card as a surprise he clearly couldn't go get his dad to sign off on it.

[Ted C]

So, again, the Federation either arrests non-Federation citizens, or there are companies in Federation space that chart cargo, freight and passengers for profit. They just aren't a crazy obsessed money society like the Ferengi are.

The Federation really is a "moneyless" society... *SNIPPED WITH GREAT PREJUDICE*

Please, by all means show us how this is reconcilable with the evidence from TNG that this is in fact wrong on all accounts. Please show me an alternative interpretation to the events in "The Price" that doesn't either involve the Federation having some sort of currency for the purpose of, at the very least, paying other governments, or alternatively have Picard deceiving a planetary government. Please, explain that to me. I really hate seeing the same claims trotted out again and again when the evidence is in this very thread that you are wrong.

Are you suggesting that money is the only thing that the Federation could be offering the Barzans in "The Price". They have superior technology; they can provide products, resources, and services; in short, they have all of the things that we normally use money to get, and they can offer those to the Barzans in return for access to the wormhole. Money isn't needed, and I don't recall it being mentioned as part of the Federation offer.

Nog and Jake are by no means authoritative on the subject of Federation economics. The simple fact is that Jake is the son of a Starfleet officer, and grew up surrounded by Federation propaganda. Nog on the other hand is a young Ferengi who grew up surrounded by Ferengi propaganda, which is in turn informed almost entirely by encounters with Starfleet officers like Picard.... who are contractually obliged to spew Federation propaganda left and right, as seen in the first two seasons of TNG. The simple answer to this is, Jake and Nog are full of shit and don't know any better because Jake never got an allowance or a paycheck before this episode aired. Very simple, very parsimonious.

They aren't professional economists, but they LIVE THERE. They have a basic understanding of how the Federation economic system works, and they know that it doesn't require money. What makes you think you know more about it than they do?

[Formless]

Are you suggesting that money is the only thing that the Federation could be offering the Barzans in "The Price". They have superior technology; they can provide products, resources, and services; in short, they have all of the things that we normally use money to get, and they can offer those to the Barzans in return for access to the wormhole. Money isn't needed, and I don't recall it being mentioned as part of the Federation offer.

Then you clearly didn't watch the episode. Other people have, and you don't know what you are talking about. They didn't offer technology, resources, or services. They offered money, which could be transacted for technology, resources or services from anyone who accepts Federation Credits. What about this are you not getting? If they were going to offer technology or resources, they would have offered technology and resources. If you want to see Starfleet personnel barter goods and services like you imagine happened in this episode, watch Voyager.

And that isn't the only episode. You have to account for all counter examples. This is just the most blatant because of how large the transaction was.

They aren't professional economists, but they LIVE THERE. They have a basic understanding of how the Federation economic system works, and they know that it doesn't require money. What makes you think you know more about it than they do?

Because as an audience member, I have the privileged viewpoint. I get to watch Voyager as they slog through the Delta Quadrant thousands of lightyears away from DS9, I get to watch private conversations both kid's parents are having with important figures in the Alpha Quadrant, I get to go back in time and watch Kirk and company save whales in the 80's, watch Worf get juggled around the multiverse by a space toilet, see into people's dreams, and for fucks sake, I get to watch a dead Picard interact with Q to change the man's personal history to prove a point about humanity! I get access to a data set that no one Star Trek character could have, about facts that would be inaccessible even if I actually lived inside that universe. And even though the show has a narrow focus on certain characters and not others (meaning that in a sense its not truly God's eye view), its still a lot more than Jake and Nog could ever get to see. And from that data set, I see evidence of propaganda being spewed from both Ferengi and Federation mouthpieces (among others) about how their economies and national policies work, and I get to see events that contradict that propaganda. The simple fact is that you and I have every reason to think we know more about the Federation in general than Jake or Nog. How couldn't we?

[Ted C]

Are you suggesting that money is the only thing that the Federation could be offering the Barzans in "The Price". They have superior technology; they can provide products, resources, and services; in short, they have all of the things that we normally use money to get, and they can offer those to the Barzans in return for access to the wormhole. Money isn't needed, and I don't recall it being mentioned as part of the Federation offer

Then you clearly didn't watch the episode. Other people have, and you don't know what you are talking about. They didn't offer technology, resources, or services. They offered money, which could be transacted for technology, resources or services from anyone who accepts Federation Credits. What about this are you not getting? If they were going to offer technology or resources, they would have offered technology and resources. If you want to see Starfleet personnel barter goods and services like you imagine happened in this episode, watch Voyager.

From the script:

RIKER: Our proposal includes technology that will enhance your food production, your mining capabilities, and space travel. We offer scholars and scientists to investigate the wormhole's potential. And perhaps most critical of all, we offer Starfleet. The security of this passage must never be compromised. We offer protection of the wormhole in perpetuity.

The offer is technology, services, and military support. No mention of money. I don't think I'm the one who hasn't watched the episode.

[Formless]

It is true I haven't watched it in a while. But I'm afraid I don't trust scripts as evidence, and not just in Star Trek's case. Too frequently the lines get changed during the actual filming as the actors ad-lib or edits are made at the last moment. Everywhere but the script indicates that they offered cash.

Besides, I just got finished saying that this was NOT the only piece of evidence. Please try and follow that point. From one piece of data does not a case make.

[Ted C]

It is true I haven't watched it in a while. But I'm afraid I don't trust scripts as evidence, and not just in Star Trek's case. Too frequently the lines get changed during the actual filming as the actors ad-lib or edits are made at the last moment. Everywhere but the script indicates that they offered cash.

Feel free to look for a clip to prove that, because that script reads exactly as I remember the episode.

Besides, I just got finished saying that this was NOT the only piece of evidence. Please try and follow that point. From one piece of data does not a case make.

There are MANY data points to indicated that the Federation is not a capitalist economy, not least of which is characters outright SAYING that it's not a capitalist economy.

[Formless]

I have been looking for such a clip. The main problem is, its most memorable (some might say redeemable) moment was when the two Ferengi scientists got trapped in the Delta Quadrant. The main story is an uncomfortable romance plot between Troi and some empathic dude that we never see again.

Also, what part of "not capitalist =! moneyless" do you have trouble understanding? I've repeatedly stated that, showed how the transition works, and pointed out that the Soviet Union, who were definitely communist, still had a currency for foreign exchange and a few internal uses. I am really getting tired of having to make the same points over and over and over again because people keep stating the same stupid things without argument. I expect better from posters who have been here for so long.

[Formless]

Okay, I just rewatched the episdode, and this is perhaps the most annoying kind of situation. Memory Alpha appears to have made shit up about the Federation's bid. The episode never says what the Federation's offer was at all. Instead all Riker does is tell the Barzan representative that she can look it up on the Enterprise's computer, and that's all we get. In fact, there is a clear lack of bidding at all in the episode save for the Ferengi's appearance where he says he can match any bid and add gold on top. Thus the entire episode is useless crap, and I just wasted 45 minutes (plus the time it took to confirm no one had it on youtube).

On the bright side, I can still add this to the list of times a script disagreed with the final production.

[FaxModem1]

Well, if anyone can read it, we can see the Federation's bid on the screen before Ral turns it off with the point that the Chryssalians have had peace for decades, while the Federation has not.

TrekCore image



Can anyone read it, at all?

[Prometheus Unbound]

The season 4 bluray is out I think - you may be able to on there.

[FaxModem1]

Well, it's a season 3 episode, so here it is. I can only make out a few words though.

Blu Ray scan

[Replicant]

Little item of note. The conversation between Jake and Nog, Jake says he has no money because he is HUMAN not because he is a member of the Federation.

When Picard spews his 'we are so superior' bullshit he speaks of how HUMANITY has advanced, not how advanced the Federation is.

My guess would be that while Earth has developed some bullshit post financial system, the rest of the Federation and Starfleet itself has and uses various currencies.

[Enigma]

As I've mentioned before, why would anyone join the UFP if it meant a complete economic collapse?

[WATCH-MAN]

[...] When Picard spews his 'we are so superior' bullshit he speaks of how HUMANITY has advanced, not how advanced the Federation is.[...]

From the Star Trek movie: The Voyage Home:

• • • • • • McCOY:
        It's a miracle these people ever got out of the twentieth century.
        
        • • KIRK:
        They're still using money. We've got to find some.
        
        • • [...]
        • • GILLIAN:
        Don't' tell me they don't use money in the twenty-third century.
        
        • • KIRK:
        Well, they don't

From the TNG episode: The Neutral Zone:

• • • • • • RALPH:
        Then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money. My office is gone. What will I do? How will I live?
        
        • • PICARD:
        This is the twenty fourth century. Material needs no longer exist.
        
        • • RALPH:
        Then what's the challenge?
        
        • • PICARD:
        The challenge, Mister Offenhouse, is to improve yourself. To enrich yourself. Enjoy it.

From the Star Trek movie: First Contact:

• • • • • • LILY:
        How big is this ship?
        
        • • PICARD:
        There are twenty-four decks. Almost seven hundred metres long.
        
        • • LILY:
        It took me six months to scrounge up enough titanium just to build a four-metre cockpit. ...How much did this thing cost?
        
        • • PICARD:
        The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.
        
        • • LILY:
        No money! That means you don't get paid.
        
        • • PICARD:
        The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. ... We work to better ourselves ... and the rest of humanity.

Why are you using such a derogatory way to speak about it?

Where did Picard insinuate that he thinks that mankind from the 24th century is superior to mankind of the 20th century?

Why is what he says »bullshit«?

How is he spewing what he says?

In my opinion, with your attitude you are disqualifying yourself as a debatter to be taken seriously. You should show that you are able to analyse evidence, provide arguments and are open to accept good arguments from your opponent. You shouldn't show so openly the extent of your prejudice.

[FaxModem1]

Kirk could also be referring to the fact that Federation currency, from three centuries ahead of where he is, would be useless for paying for the pizza and beer at the restaurant they're at in the 1980s United States.

[Replicant]

[...] When Picard spews his 'we are so superior' bullshit he speaks of how HUMANITY has advanced, not how advanced the Federation is.[...]

From the Star Trek movie: The Voyage Home:

• • • • • • McCOY:
        It's a miracle these people ever got out of the twentieth century.
        
        • • KIRK:
        They're still using money. We've got to find some.
        
        • • [...]
        • • GILLIAN:
        Don't' tell me they don't use money in the twenty-third century.
        
        • • KIRK:
        Well, they don't

From the TNG episode: The Neutral Zone:

• • • • • • RALPH:
        Then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money. My office is gone. What will I do? How will I live?
        
        • • PICARD:
        This is the twenty fourth century. Material needs no longer exist.
        
        • • RALPH:
        Then what's the challenge?
        
        • • PICARD:
        The challenge, Mister Offenhouse, is to improve yourself. To enrich yourself. Enjoy it.

From the Star Trek movie: First Contact:

• • • • • • LILY:
        How big is this ship?
        
        • • PICARD:
        There are twenty-four decks. Almost seven hundred metres long.
        
        • • LILY:
        It took me six months to scrounge up enough titanium just to build a four-metre cockpit. ...How much did this thing cost?
        
        • • PICARD:
        The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.
        
        • • LILY:
        No money! That means you don't get paid.
        
        • • PICARD:
        The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. ... We work to better ourselves ... and the rest of humanity.

Why are you using such a derogatory way to speak about it?

Where did Picard insinuate that he thinks that mankind from the 24th century is superior to mankind of the 20th century?

Why is what he says »bullshit«?

How is he spewing what he says?

In my opinion, with your attitude you are disqualifying yourself as a debatter to be taken seriously. You should show that you are able to analyse evidence, provide arguments and are open to accept good arguments from your opponent. You shouldn't show so openly the extent of your prejudice.

And you should go blow it all out your ass.

Picard is talking complete bullshit because it is complete bullshit. We see greedy, materialistic, power hungry aliens AND humans in the Federation all the time.

Hell Picard's own former head of security Tasha Yar can from an Earth colony that degenerated so badly that her common daily activity was avoiding rape gangs that roamed the street.

Every single item you quoted is directly contradicted by onscreen evidence or dialogue. Hell Kirk comments about how they still use money and yet ST6 at the beginning of the movie we have Scott commenting about how he just "bought a boat" a rather interesting activity in a society that supposedly has no money.

[FaxModem1]

Heck, the first quote McCoy and Kirk about money could refer to effect of everyone using cash and carrying actual physical money around. After all, Spock and Kirk are confused as hell about the term 'exact change'. Everything could be like debit cards or direct deposit for them in the 23rd century.

[WATCH-MAN]

Replicant, the problem with you attitude is that it distracts from any arguments that may be hidden in your ranting.

And you should go blow it all out your ass.

no argument at all

Picard is talking complete bullshit because it is complete bullshit.

idem per idem fallacy

We see greedy, materialistic, power hungry aliens AND humans in the Federation all the time.

When did we see greedy, materialistic, power hungry humans in the Federation? If they are there »all the time« you won't have problems listing only 17 examples (TNG has 176 episodes. 17 examples is less than 10 percent of this). And of course you can show that - even if you can provide any examples - these are the norm and not exemptions.

Hell Picard's own former head of security Tasha Yar can from an Earth colony that degenerated so badly that her common daily activity was avoiding rape gangs that roamed the street.

Irrelevant for your own argument as Turkana IV severed relations with the Federation nearly fifteen years before the events of the TNG episode Legacy. Insofar Turkana IV isn't part of the Federation for a long enough time.

Every single item you quoted is directly contradicted by onscreen evidence or dialogue.

Feel free to provide this evidence or dialogue and do not only claim that such exists.

Hell Kirk comments about how they still use money and yet ST6 at the beginning of the movie we have Scott commenting about how he just "bought a boat" a rather interesting activity in a society that supposedly has no money.

It could be a figure of speech. Maybe he didn't paid with money?

[WATCH-MAN]

Kirk could also be referring to the fact that Federation currency, from three centuries ahead of where he is, would be useless for paying for the pizza and beer at the restaurant they're at in the 1980s United States.

The first part of the quote is not from the scene in the pizzeria but from a scene shortly before Kirk sells his glasses. And »They're still using money« is not a complain about the wrong money but about the existence of money at all.

Heck, the first quote McCoy and Kirk about money could refer to effect of everyone using cash and carrying actual physical money around.

That's possible. Do you have anything to support this exegesis?

After all, Spock and Kirk are confused as hell about the term 'exact change'. Everything could be like debit cards or direct deposit for them in the 23rd century.

As I have said: It's possible. But as they would show the same confusion if they aren't familiar with money at all - regardless if it is physical or electronic money, this argument does not support your exegesis more than it would support the idea that they do not use money at all on Earth in the 23rd century.

[FaxModem1]

Well, consider that Scotty 'just bought a boat' in Star Trek 6, obviously in the 23rd century, and two movies later, they have to have some way of buying things. McCoy in Star Trek 3 is haggling with a big eared alien about price for passage to Genesis. They seem to have some form of currency going on.

[WATCH-MAN]

Well, consider that Scotty 'just bought a boat' in Star Trek 6, obviously in the 23rd century, and two movies later, they have to have some way of buying things. McCoy in Star Trek 3 is haggling with a big eared alien about price for passage to Genesis. They seem to have some form of currency going on.

I do not contest that there is some form of currency in the 23rd century.

The question is, what form, if at all, is used on Earth for internal trading.

I do not know it. I do not know how the economy on Earth works. But I'm not the one who claims that what Picars said is bullshit. Insofar it's not me who has to prove anything. Replicant has to prove that what Picard said is bullshit by showing that the (fictional) reality on Earth is different from what Picard described.



By the way: As already was speculated in this thread, it could be that they do not need money for internal trading but only for external trading and that members of Starfleet get interstellar accepted money when they are away from Earth - not as a sold but as an allowance (or travel and entertainment expenses).

That Scotty »just bought a boat« could be a figure of speech or it could be that he didn't bought this boat on Earth but on Norpin V, where he wanted to retire. It's the same with Sisko, who wanted to buy land on Bajor where he wanted to come back and retire. If money is still used on Norpin V and on Bajor, it would be only naturally that they had to use either native currency or a international accepted currency. But this doesn't say anything about internal trading on Earth.

And yes: there is a difference between Earth and the rest of the galaxy. To quote Sisko from the DS9 episode The Maquis:

• • • • • • SISKO:
        Do you know what the trouble is?
        
        • • KIRA:
        No.
        
        • • SISKO:
        The trouble is Earth.
        
        • • KIRA:
        Really?
        
        • • SISKO:
        On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarised zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints, just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive whether it meets with Federation approval or not.

When Picard described the economics of the future, he obviously didn't meant the economics of all planets in the galaxy but the economics of Earth - as he was speaking to a human from Earth that wanted to know how expensive the Enterprise was. That Picrd didn't want to go into the details of Earth's economics in this situation is understandable.

In this dicotomy of internal trading and external trading would even fit your example with McCoy and the big eared alien.

[FaxModem1]

Possible, Earth could just be one of a few moneyless societies in the Federation, or money has changed so much since the 20th-21st centuries that it's hard to compare. After all, we don't slice a coin into bits anymore because of it's high value, but we do keep the saying, "two bits". Heck, there's still arguments about whether or not we should even keep the penny in this day and age.

Similar way to Earth, Earth has so changed since the 20th century that paying for things on it is rather absurd given how plentiful everything seems to be, much in the same way water is free in most restaurants in the US, but on Deep Space Nine, or K7(remember, tribbles were being sold there), or elsewhere. This could in fact, explain most of Picard's and Jake's speeches about not needing money, in the core worlds of the Federation, you can get by just fine on using the replicator or whatever.

Heck, the Bolians, a confirmed Federation member, has the Bank of Bolias, which Morn deposited the money he stole in a heist there, and that was in the latter 24th century. A little hard to have a bank if you can't put money into it.

[WATCH-MAN]

• • • To me it seems, as if we are now agreeing.

[Ted C]

I'm willing to go with the idea that it's more of an Earth thing than a Federation thing.

It's not like I think there's no compensation for work on Earth or in the Federation, it's just that they seem to do it in some manner that doesn't lend itself to "capital" investment. Thus, Scotty can "buy" a boat with his Starfleet compensation, but he can't stick it in an account that earns interest, and it's not legal tender in external transactions (although there are probably ways to obtain foreign currency if you frequently interact with other societies).

[WATCH-MAN]

A little detail:

I'm not willing to say, that Scotty has obtained the boat in exchange for payment on Earth.

It's possible.

But it is also possible, that he used the word "bought" as a figure of speech and meant nothing more than that he acquired or obtained the boat. The word »buy« has already today several figurative meanings (e.g.: »I am not prepared to buy the claim that the ends justify the means« or »I hate to buy into stereotypes«) which have nothing to do with obtaining something in exchange for payment. If »buying« in its classical sense is not possible any more on Earth, it is not implausible that the word would more and more be used with a figurative meaning. Insofar I wouldn't put too much importance in this one word. It does not prove that there is money or another form of currency used on Earth in internal trading - or that Scotty obtained the boat in exchange for payment.

And it is also possible, that he bought this boat on Norpin V, where he wanted to retire. It's the same with Sisko, who wanted to buy land on Bajor where he wanted to come back and retire. If money is still used on Norpin V and on Bajor, it would be only naturally that they had to use either native currency or a interstellar accepted currency. The question of course would be, from where they would get the money. I think it is possible that members of Starfleet get interstellar accepted money when they are away from Earth - not as a sold but as an allowance (or travel and entertainment expenses).

This interpretation and speculation would fit with the avaiable information and eliminate any contradictions.