New Automatic Weapon design

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Rob Wilson
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Easy kids, there's room in the world for more than one firing system, indeed I've invented my own here based on the metalstorm nonsense. This is supposed to be a near future weapon, more advanced in materials and electronics than todays combat weapons, so I've assumed the problems surrounding electronically fired and controlled caseless ammo have been pretty much ironed out and the extra complexities are nothing to late 21st century techs. Our current weapons are far more complex in design than those used centuries past, but we put up with them ok. This also lets me have a compact design with few moving parts and fancy stuff like round counters and selectable rapid burst firing.

As mentioned previously I made space above the breech for any fancy workings that might be need for such a system, although I have little idea what they might actually be. You'll notice it's twice the depth of the rest of the weapon, and there should be plenty of space to play with. As for the space issue at the back, I could shorten the uncommonly wide mag and that would give 2 or 3 inches at the rear, but as I keep saying there's no need as the mag is way longer than the rounds it holds anyway. I assumed the mag did more than simply hold the rounds, it might also power the weapons or the mag feed system.

The stock itself is basically just an MP5 unit slightly reshaped, the 2 arms having a groove down the middle to guide them as they run between the main weapon body and the upper cowling itself. It doesn't foul anywhere, it's made to fit neatly into the bulge running along the side of the upper cowling and doesn't in any way impede on the main weapons structure. Having some little experience with these things, I have already added a notch where the release switch engages, if you look closely at the workshop scene picture you'll notice it on the right hand rail underside.

Rob, are you suggesting I fit a rotating thumbwheel to the forward section for gas flow? On top?
Yeah, I was thinking you can fit it to only one side as it could be operated by only the thumb of the supporting hand (or the fingers if it's on the 'wrong' side for the thumb), it's something you don't have to duplicate for it to be ambidextrous.

As to the firing system, you don't need anything more complicated than the one I drew up; it's simple, has few moving parts, it's robust and uses proven tech/materials. Your firing of the round is electronic so no need for hammer or Firing pin. Get the Materials right for the springs and you could get away with that design. Why make things more complicated if you don't have to?

As for the mag size, you could have a 'U' feed of the rounds, it would require an exceptional spring to ensure correct feed (it would have a very tight corner to feed around at the base), but if this is future tech I'm sure they could have it. This way you're getting twice as many rounds per mag, and it makes more sense than the batteries thing.

To show you what I mean about the bullets and power being a pain, would you prefer a Camera that had a built-in power supply so you only had to add film, or a camera that had to have batteries attached to the film rolls for it to work?

Like I said before, more ammo is the order of the day. Have the power pack in the Pistol grip and carry a couple of spares, put the mags to maximum ammo storage.

You still need to add some length at the rear for the correct eye relief for the sights (or move the sight assembly forwards), hell you could put spare power packs and a cleaning kit in the extra rear space if you want. :P
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
weemadando wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Metalstorm sucks shit. In addition to its ability to waste ammunition faster then a minigun crewed by chimps, do you really want a gun in which reloading requires a barrel change?
Damnit man - have you actually ever looked at the demonstrations of MetalStorm pistols and other PDWs?

It takes the SAME amount of time and effort to reload one of them as it does a standard automatic. Its just a different process.
Yeah actually, and I've also seen videos on it and browsed web sites. I remain convinced it has no place on a battlefield or anywhere else. Perhaps competitions might find a use.
If your swapping out barrels, then it's dead for competition use in it's present form! :(
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Post by Knife »

Looks great to me. I really like the bullpup design, very futuristic. I do echo Rob's concern over the feed mechinism and the space for a buffer system. If you made a larger base for your stock, and made the base (maybe a tube that came out an inch or two) double as the buffer tube, it would look right IMHO.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

I like the idea of a U-feed mag, as you say it might need something a bit high-tech to ensure it works but I'm not worried about that, high tech is easy. You just say "this works in the future" and forget about it, what could be simpler. Maybe it's like the high capacity powered mags we sometimes use in larger airsoft weapons, but this one takes it's power from whatever futuristic power supply runs the gun itself? I might model a power pack that fits in the base of the pistol grip, might be a nice touch.

As for the sights, this thing is meant to be fired from the hip mostly, but the stock is there for more accurate use and the position of the iron sights seems fine from what I can see when I look along it in Lightwave. When I slap a scope on this it's going to be mounted on the RIS rail anyway, taking it a few inches forward and should be in an ideal position. I seriously dont want to enlarge the rear of this thing, it's going to become larger and larger and that's not something we want in a PDW. If it had now stock and came out only as large as it is now, then fine, but this thing has a stock and that's about all the space we have.

No work on it today, I've been sick as a dog and spent most of my time in my pit. If I'm off later this week recovering then I'll have time and get a scope knocked up and the buttons added, otherwise it might be Thursday or Friday before I get a chance to do any more to it. Once we've got a scope on it, the fun will commence slapping that into shape :D
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:No work on it today, I've been sick as a dog and spent most of my time in my pit. If I'm off later this week recovering then I'll have time and get a scope knocked up and the buttons added, otherwise it might be Thursday or Friday before I get a chance to do any more to it. Once we've got a scope on it, the fun will commence slapping that into shape :D
My condolences, Kenny. Remember to take lotsa vitamins and drink enough OJ to fuel an ISD for a year. You'll be better in no time flat!

EDIT: Fucking typo!

*drops a Star Destroyer on the typo*
Last edited by Einhander Sn0m4n on 2003-03-10 07:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:I like the idea of a U-feed mag, as you say it might need something a bit high-tech to ensure it works but I'm not worried about that, high tech is easy. You just say "this works in the future" and forget about it, what could be simpler.
ROFLMAO :lol:
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:As for the sights, this thing is meant to be fired from the hip mostly,
Firing from the hip... *shakes head* :P You definitely need a laser dt if you're going down that route.
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:No work on it today, I've been sick as a dog and spent most of my time in my pit. If I'm off later this week recovering then I'll have time and get a scope knocked up and the buttons added, otherwise it might be Thursday or Friday before I get a chance to do any more to it. Once we've got a scope on it, the fun will commence slapping that into shape :D
Well get better (I recommend being ministered to by attractive, nubile young women), and we'll lok forward to the finished result.
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Post by weemadando »

Rob Wilson wrote:
weemadando wrote: The other thing I like them for are their area-denial and point defense systems. Mmmmm... 40mm goodness at 1,000,000 rounds a minute.
Of which 95% of your rounds are wasted unfortunately. :roll:
How? In area-denial there is no such thing as a wasted round? Did it hit the ground - yes... Congratulations it wasn't wasted. Thats the point of the massive rate of fire on the area-denial system. Its like a time-on-target barrage in a box...
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Post by weemadando »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
weemadando wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Metalstorm sucks shit. In addition to its ability to waste ammunition faster then a minigun crewed by chimps, do you really want a gun in which reloading requires a barrel change?
Damnit man - have you actually ever looked at the demonstrations of MetalStorm pistols and other PDWs?

It takes the SAME amount of time and effort to reload one of them as it does a standard automatic. Its just a different process.
Yeah actually, and I've also seen videos on it and browsed web sites. I remain convinced it has no place on a battlefield or anywhere else. Perhaps competitions might find a use.
I've always advocated its use by police. With it being able to carry both lethal and non-lethal rounds in the same mounting and being able to fire different types just by switching the selector switch... Also the fact that it would carry 2-3 mags worth without reloading.

And the big'un. Electronic fire control means that by "chipping" officers you can control who fires the gun and record the EXACT time that the gun fired each round and who fired it.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

weemadando wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
weemadando wrote: The other thing I like them for are their area-denial and point defense systems. Mmmmm... 40mm goodness at 1,000,000 rounds a minute.
Of which 95% of your rounds are wasted unfortunately. :roll:
How? In area-denial there is no such thing as a wasted round? Did it hit the ground - yes... Congratulations it wasn't wasted. Thats the point of the massive rate of fire on the area-denial system. Its like a time-on-target barrage in a box...
Say it fires a quarter-second burst, that's 4,166, of which only 4-5 are needed.Phalanx can get a hit after firing between 20-30 rounds for a wastage of 15-25 rounds. MetalStorm wastes 4000+ rounds per burst. It's horribly wasteful for what it is and offers no real advantages.
The tech is impressive, and should be invested in to get something useful out of it, but that CIWS is just ridiculous.
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Post by phongn »

That, and gun-style CIWS have too short of a range unless you go up to 76mm or so (like the Italians). Most of the world is moving to PDMS as a result.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

weemadando wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
weemadando wrote: The other thing I like them for are their area-denial and point defense systems. Mmmmm... 40mm goodness at 1,000,000 rounds a minute.
Of which 95% of your rounds are wasted unfortunately. :roll:
How? In area-denial there is no such thing as a wasted round? Did it hit the ground - yes... Congratulations it wasn't wasted. Thats the point of the massive rate of fire on the area-denial system. Its like a time-on-target barrage in a box...
Every round fired in excess of what's needed to kill the target is wasted. You don't need thousands of grenades to wipe out a platoon. Nothing requires a million rounds a minute or even one percent of that. Theres a reason why you only have one artillery battery shoot many missions even if a brigade can be called on.

How much does the peice of shit weigh anyway? If its got thousands of rounds to shoot its going to be big and heavy and pointless as its going to need a vechical to haul. In which case your better off with a 120mm mortar carrier.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

phongn wrote:That, and gun-style CIWS have too short of a range unless you go up to 76mm or so (like the Italians). Most of the world is moving to PDMS as a result.
The Italians are using guided ammo on there guns as well.
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Post by Pu-239 »

Rob Wilson wrote:
weemadando wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: Of which 95% of your rounds are wasted unfortunately. :roll:
How? In area-denial there is no such thing as a wasted round? Did it hit the ground - yes... Congratulations it wasn't wasted. Thats the point of the massive rate of fire on the area-denial system. Its like a time-on-target barrage in a box...
Say it fires a quarter-second burst, that's 4,166, of which only 4-5 are needed.Phalanx can get a hit after firing between 20-30 rounds for a wastage of 15-25 rounds. MetalStorm wastes 4000+ rounds per burst. It's horribly wasteful for what it is and offers no real advantages.
The tech is impressive, and should be invested in to get something useful out of it, but that CIWS is just ridiculous.
Rate of fire is variable

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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

We would do well to remember that weapons have a morale and propaganda advantage too. You might sleep sounder in your encampment knowing you had a milllion round a minute sentry guns covering your ass, and I'm pretty sure there'd be some real sphincter moments for any troops tasked with penetrating an area defended by such a weapon too.

In WWII the Americans ended up giving extra training to GI's to try and stop them fearing the German MG-42 so much, it's very high rate of fire was causing havoc amongst fresh recruits in the field. It's a wise man that knows when to keep his head down, even if it only takes one round to kill you there's a fuckin million of them out there! Remember too the Big Bertha railtruck cannon used to pound Paris by the Germans. As a weapon it was worse than useless, tying up nearly a whole battalion of troops to run the bloody thing, but as propoganda and a morale sapper it had great value.
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Post by weemadando »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:We would do well to remember that weapons have a morale and propaganda advantage too. You might sleep sounder in your encampment knowing you had a milllion round a minute sentry guns covering your ass, and I'm pretty sure there'd be some real sphincter moments for any troops tasked with penetrating an area defended by such a weapon too.
The best way of thinking of the MetalStorm "sentry" guns is as multi-use claymores...
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Pu-239 wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
weemadando wrote:
How? In area-denial there is no such thing as a wasted round? Did it hit the ground - yes... Congratulations it wasn't wasted. Thats the point of the massive rate of fire on the area-denial system. Its like a time-on-target barrage in a box...
Say it fires a quarter-second burst, that's 4,166, of which only 4-5 are needed.Phalanx can get a hit after firing between 20-30 rounds for a wastage of 15-25 rounds. MetalStorm wastes 4000+ rounds per burst. It's horribly wasteful for what it is and offers no real advantages.
The tech is impressive, and should be invested in to get something useful out of it, but that CIWS is just ridiculous.
Rate of fire is variable
Yes, but they work on the principleof throwing up a wall of steel infront of the target (95% of which is wasted), whether that target be an oncoming missile or an enemy soldier (has anyone proposed a workable Sentry gun application for this?)
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Post by Rob Wilson »

weemadando wrote:
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:We would do well to remember that weapons have a morale and propaganda advantage too. You might sleep sounder in your encampment knowing you had a milllion round a minute sentry guns covering your ass, and I'm pretty sure there'd be some real sphincter moments for any troops tasked with penetrating an area defended by such a weapon too.
The best way of thinking of the MetalStorm "sentry" guns is as multi-use claymores...
Except they don't have the spread of a Claymore, it would be firing at one person at a time, and it would be upto the person manning it to put the fire on target. Area suppression works by using high-power rounds sparingly over a wide area to disuade the enemy from moving, not hundreds of rounds in one place at a time. Against a charge over open ground this puppy would be a terror and invaluable as all that would come out of it would be a fine pink mist, but most sentry positions are over immediate area's and not everyone has a position that would call for a couple of thousand rounds per target. :P

PS, could Enlightnment or a Supermod, please Split the MetalStorm specific posts to a new thread, as they are wandering off-topic. Cheers.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Rob Wilson wrote:
weemadando wrote:
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:We would do well to remember that weapons have a morale and propaganda advantage too. You might sleep sounder in your encampment knowing you had a milllion round a minute sentry guns covering your ass, and I'm pretty sure there'd be some real sphincter moments for any troops tasked with penetrating an area defended by such a weapon too.
The best way of thinking of the MetalStorm "sentry" guns is as multi-use claymores...
Except they don't have the spread of a Claymore, it would be firing at one person at a time, and it would be upto the person manning it to put the fire on target. Area suppression works by using high-power rounds sparingly over a wide area to disuade the enemy from moving, not hundreds of rounds in one place at a time. Against a charge over open ground this puppy would be a terror and invaluable as all that would come out of it would be a fine pink mist, but most sentry positions are over immediate area's and not everyone has a position that would call for a couple of thousand rounds per target. :P
That's why no one builds machine guns firing over a 1000 RPM for ground use, and aircraft only use them because of there brief firing times and high speeds. Even then, many nations don't think there necessary and prefer revolver or double barreled weapons.
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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

meanwhile, back at the ranch...

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Hey, it was a request!
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Post by Pcm979 »

It looks.... Pudgy. :P
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

The rail the scope is on should be thicker and stronger. You've got a very long barrel on it, its basically a sniper rifle now. You might as well delete the forward most part of the grip and add a folding bipod.
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Post by Howedar »

I'm really starting to like it. Chop 6-8" from the barrel, strengthen that rail, and you have a kickass bullpup.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:meanwhile, back at the ranch...

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Hey, it was a request!
LMAO I wasn't serious... LOL
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:meanwhile, back at the ranch...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/KBP6.jpg

Hey, it was a request!
Is that an Assault rifle variant (rather than a sniper rifle), the normal one being the Carbine? If so, you may want to get a small part of the furniture to run part way along that barrel for support 9extend that thicker Black piece where it meets the body and call it a locking sleeve for attaching the longer barrel to the modular design). If it's meant to be a Support weapon varient then don't repeat the errors of the LSW, make the Locking sleeve idea above your Outrigger for the Bipod, to prevent torsion during firing. Dump the Mag and fit a Box for maximum ammo carriage. The base for the sight is too flimsy, give it a block for stability (that can still be mounted on the Railbut it now attaches along a greater length).

For everyone else talking about a sniper rifle : There's no way that's a sniper rifle, blowback feed for Semi-auto's simply makes too much movement for it to be accurate enough during operation over distance, the Barrel is not free floating, the Molded parts forward of the pistol grip limit proper positioning, the Sight isn't anywhere near securely mounted enough, no provision for mounting a bipod/tripod/stand, and no solid butt.

It does look good though. Very - businesslike. :)
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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

I'm afraid it was made just for a laugh, but it does lead me to think on other things. This 'family' of weapon is going to be used on a friends site in his own fictitous universe called Cold War. It's a future human civilisation that's spread through the nearest star systems but with all the bickering, fighting and such you'd expect from assholes like us. The guy that wrote up the weapons pages though had some very specific ideas and this weapon can fit several of them.

I'm going to make a scope/sensor unit which will fit between the two uprights on the highest point of the gun. It's going to be a squarish shrouded unit like that on the OICW and will be used in a similar way, being linked to helmet mounted optics or able to feed directly to C3 somewhere else. I've also modeled a power unit which fits inside the handle of the gun, taking care of power for the rifle and the sensors too. WHen it comes to making variants, if this is indeed the carbine then I'll make an assaul version with extended barrel and the furniture you speak of Rob, along with maybe a Bi-pod fitting too.

I also need to make a version with built in noise suppresion, so expect something like the front end of an MP5-SD or similar silenced weapon. Pictures of some of this should be ready tonight hopefully, I have to finish all the modeleing for the end of the month to get it entered into the competition in time.
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