Depending on how the limit works, he might be in his 'final' incarnation now, given that Tennant regenerated without changing appearance in Stolen Earth/Journey's End. Hopefully that will at least get a mention come Christmas.mr friendly guy wrote:2. He still is on the maximum number, ie 13 incarnations from 12 regenerations. Hartnell, Troughton, Pertwee, Tom Baker, Davidson, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, Paul Mcgann, John Hurt, Eccleston, Tennant, Smith and Capaldi.
Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
I liked his outfit too.But the Doctor didn't know until 400 years later, what actually happened that day. It seems that the War Doctor didn't even have a clue until that day. Though I don't understand why the memory disappeared. Since they were pulled through to the War Doctor's time.
I do love the War Doctor's outfit.
It's true that the Doctor didn't know, but we the viewer now have to look at everything thing he did during that time with a new lens. It's kinda hard for me to treat anything the Doctor did over the past few seasons as genuine or meaningful when I know it was based on the flimsy excuse that "he didn't know any better".
Although RTD was hit-and-miss at least he knew that in this case, telling was better than showing. He deliberately left the Time War alone so that our imaginations could fill the gap, as he felt that nothing that could be shown on screen could possibly be better than what we could think of. In this case at least, I think he was right. I certainly did NOT expect the end of the Time War to be "Gallifrey magically disappears and the Daleks shoot themselves to death." Note that RTD could have easily just brought Gallifrey back in "The End of Time" but chose not to do so.
And I loved how the 11th Doctor openly mocked the 10th when he said he didn't want to die. Another "take that" if you ask me.
Anyways...
With the Timelords almost certainly going to come back, and knowing that they can give out regeneration cycles, I think it's a safe bet that the Doctor doesn't have to worry about how many regenerations he has left anymore. Hell, for all we know the Timelords may bestow on him an unlimited number of regenerations, even if its offscreen- after all, he kinda just saved their asses BIG time.
Of course, this now means that the Master is back too, since he was on Gallifrey at the time... I wonder if now that the Time War is, well, sorta over he still wants to conquer things next time we see him. The drumbeat ought to have stopped, right?
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Well the twelve regenerations is a limit artificially imposed by Rassilon (as explained in The Five Doctors)
The Master said he was granted a full new set of regenerations for fighting in the Time War, the Doctor could well have been granted the same amnesty when he joined the war.
For that matter does the regeneration from Mcgann to Hurt count seeing as it was induced by the priestess of Karn?
Let alone River Song giving up all her regenerations to the Doctor.
There's a number of ways around this artificial limit just from examples mentioned in the series without the writers needing to make shit up.
The Master said he was granted a full new set of regenerations for fighting in the Time War, the Doctor could well have been granted the same amnesty when he joined the war.
For that matter does the regeneration from Mcgann to Hurt count seeing as it was induced by the priestess of Karn?
Let alone River Song giving up all her regenerations to the Doctor.
There's a number of ways around this artificial limit just from examples mentioned in the series without the writers needing to make shit up.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
The Time Lords also offered the Master a "complete new regeneration cycle" in The Five Doctors, and it is evident that they can do that given that they did so with the Master. So really they just need to, if they're counting Capaldi as the final regeneration, have the Time Lords do so to the Doctor before Capaldi dies.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Timelord is not a race, it's a rank. Ordinary Gallifreyan's don't get regenerations and are thus shit out of luck when they die.Johonebesus wrote:My eyesight is bad, so maybe I just missed it, but during the battle scenes I couldn't help but wonder why there were no signs of anyone regenerating. Even if the Daleks had weapons that could stop it, what about people hit by debris or thrown by explosions?
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
So a few question and musings...
What happened to Rassilon? Because in "The End of Time" it is made quite clear that what happened AFTER Gallifrey was time locked in the Time War. Is Rassilon and the high council still on Gallifrey? Because if so, they are some very very dangerous people.
This should NOT bring back the Master.. He left and hid WELL before the time that Gallifrey was Time Locked. And so this should not alter his time line.
The whole "BadWold/The Moment" thing. It seems "The Moment" exists in all times, similar to being in the time vortex.
If we are looking for an 'In Universe' explanation to how all this happened.. Well...
Could it not be that "The Moment" was used, and was basically pissed off that it was used? It said "How could I continue to exist and NOT be the instrument of killing Billions upon Billions of innocent people" SO it 'went back in time' to when it was first used, and did this whole song and dance thing to bring together the other doctors, knowing they would have worked out an alternative to using it.
What happened to Rassilon? Because in "The End of Time" it is made quite clear that what happened AFTER Gallifrey was time locked in the Time War. Is Rassilon and the high council still on Gallifrey? Because if so, they are some very very dangerous people.
This should NOT bring back the Master.. He left and hid WELL before the time that Gallifrey was Time Locked. And so this should not alter his time line.
The whole "BadWold/The Moment" thing. It seems "The Moment" exists in all times, similar to being in the time vortex.
If we are looking for an 'In Universe' explanation to how all this happened.. Well...
Could it not be that "The Moment" was used, and was basically pissed off that it was used? It said "How could I continue to exist and NOT be the instrument of killing Billions upon Billions of innocent people" SO it 'went back in time' to when it was first used, and did this whole song and dance thing to bring together the other doctors, knowing they would have worked out an alternative to using it.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Fanon. It is very popular fanon, but it is nothing more.Darkevilme wrote:Timelord is not a race, it's a rank. Ordinary Gallifreyan's don't get regenerations and are thus shit out of luck when they die.
The difference between Time Lords and Gallifreyans is only broadly hinted at in Arc of Infinity and never stated as fact in the show.
This is the exchange the fan theory is based on. It refers to Morbius being the previous Time Lord we know of being executed. However, there is nothing there to suggest that Maxil is not a Time Lord. It's wishful thinking by people who have a particular agenda to grind to suggest the time lords are a distinct caste within the society.CASTELLAN: No appeals? No last minute requests?
MAXIL: Nothing. The Doctor seems to be taking it quite well, in fact.
CASTELLAN: You are extremely privileged, Maxil. It's given to very few to supervise the destruction of a Time Lord. It has in fact only happened once before.
MAXIL: The warrant is issued?
CASTELLAN: Yes. Summon the Doctor.
It's as valid as the other popular fan theory advanced in the novels, that Time Lords step out of looms, fully grown, and are never children.
This is the more recent quote, and it is one that actually disproves the novels' notion of a non-Time Lord caste living on Gallifrey. Somewhere in that little rant, you would think the Doctor would mention "Time Lords must graduate The Academy." He doesn't, Time Lord is the name of their culture.DONNA: Does that mean she's a, what do you call a female Time Lord?
JENNY: What's a Time Lord?
DOCTOR: It's who I am. It's where I'm from.
JENNY: And I'm from you.
DOCTOR: You're an echo, that's all. A Time Lord is so much more. A sum of knowledge, a code, a shared history, a shared suffering. Only it's gone now, all of it. Gone forever.
Time Lord is what the race is called, Gallifreyan is something the Black Guardian and the guys in Mawdryn Undead say now and then.The Doctor: No, you look Time Lord. We came first.
This nonsense is from the same reekingly shit novels that have bread riots on a planet with thousands of functioning TARDISes.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
I got the impression that the Time Lords' actions in that story were born out of desperation and the threat of being destroyed by the Daleks and the other Time War horrors, rather than just doing it for the sake of being evil. That, and doubtless a bit of coercion and the threat of disintegration by Rassilon; in fact, he seemed to be the only one from that story who was actively relishing the idea of destroying reality. We never saw what the rank-and-file Time Lords were doing or thinking in the final days of the Time War.Crossroads Inc. wrote:What happened to Rassilon? Because in "The End of Time" it is made quite clear that what happened AFTER Gallifrey was time locked in the Time War. Is Rassilon and the high council still on Gallifrey? Because if so, they are some very very dangerous people.
With Gallifrey freed from the time lock and the threat of destruction, the Time Lords would probably and focus on rebuilding their world. Granted, I could see Rassilon wanting to go through with his plan to bring about the End of Time anyway, but odds are the other Time Lords would react by stuffing him back into the statue where they found him.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
The War Council mention that the "High Council have plans of their own" and that those plans "have already failed" in this. Presumably this is concurrent with or shortly after End of Time. Whether or not Rassilon and the Master made it back to Gallifrey when their thingy went into reverse is an open question, though.
In some Fridge Brilliance, the derision the leading General of Gallifrey holds the High Council in explains neatly why Rassilon had no guards with him in End of Time.
In some Fridge Brilliance, the derision the leading General of Gallifrey holds the High Council in explains neatly why Rassilon had no guards with him in End of Time.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
This is the reading I got on it as well. Rassilon basically took the High Council on his little escapade and was willing to let Gallifrey burn. As long as Rassilon himself was safe, he didn't give a shit about the planet.NecronLord wrote:The War Council mention that the "High Council have plans of their own" and that those plans "have already failed" in this. Presumably this is concurrent with or shortly after End of Time. Whether or not Rassilon and the Master made it back to Gallifrey when their thingy went into reverse is an open question, though.
In some Fridge Brilliance, the derision the leading General of Gallifrey holds the High Council in explains neatly why Rassilon had no guards with him in End of Time.
But, I do want to add a bit about Time Lords vs Gallifreyans. During Baker's President of Gallifrey, we do see normal Gallifreyans living outside the cities, having children. Leela joins them, marrying a Gallifreyan guard and leaving the Doctor. So, my take is that the background charcters weren't regenning because that is reserved for Time Lords, the Elite.
After all, why would Rassilon let mere peons have that luxury?
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Gallifrey's survival might not turn out to be a good thing. We don't know what condition the planet or its people is in, but most other races couldn't tell the difference between them and the Daleks anymore. I doubt the various species which had suffered due to the war (well, the ones who aren't dead anyways) will be rejoicing when they find out the Time Lords are still around. And speaking of the Daleks, what happens if they become aware that the Gallifrey still exists? Clara might have purged info about the Doctor, but did that include all info about the Timelords? The war might not be over yet...
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
It is fanon that would explain the lack of any showing of extragavanza in gold regenerations during the war scenes though. It also provides one possible answer for the portrayal that the masters of time and space defend their planet using generic unimaginative future war equipment, ie these are not said masters, just the people who live on gallifrey.NecronLord wrote:Fanon. It is very popular fanon, but it is nothing more.Darkevilme wrote:Timelord is not a race, it's a rank. Ordinary Gallifreyan's don't get regenerations and are thus shit out of luck when they die.
Although admittedly that can also be explained by the way the battle tardises seem absent from the sky, they'd expended all the really cool stuff and this is what they had in mothballs....still. I'm glad they've undone the time war to an extent, every time we see it it fails to live up to the hype. I mean, a war between masters of time and space that birthed eldritch things (the nightmare child, the king that never was, whatever they mentioned during the end of time) as collateral damage and as weaponry.
And when we see it it is generic future war.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
No explanation is necessary. Most of the Doctor's regenerations have taken minutes from the trauma being inflicted, to the regeneration itself. Some of them have taken hours! (7-8 & 10-11). Even the time that the Doctor gets shot by a dalek:Darkevilme wrote: It is fanon that would explain the lack of any showing of extragavanza in gold regenerations during the war scenes though.
The sum of the battle scenes here is a few minutes. There's no reason to think there were no regenerations going on, we just didn't see any of them. And of course, they can refuse to regenerate; would you want to regenerate if there's a dalek sitting over you about to shoot you in the face when you do?
Sorry, the Time Lords military equipment was established in the old series as having basic analogues of modern things.And when we see it it is generic future war.
Indeed, one of their forbidden weapons in the original series takes the form of a great big gun.
It would be blindingly stupid for no one, when the city is falling, to get out a gun. If they had fancy time weapons (and indeed they have the Final Sanction thingy, however that works) that look nothing like an ordinary gun, that's fine, there's no reason to think that having a hand-held item that makes hostile persons in your general vicinity die is an obsolete concept to them though.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
The brainbug comes from people thinking of that, yes, but in the episode you're thinking ofLadyTevar wrote:This is the reading I got on it as well. Rassilon basically took the High Council on his little escapade and was willing to let Gallifrey burn. As long as Rassilon himself was safe, he didn't give a shit about the planet.
But, I do want to add a bit about Time Lords vs Gallifreyans. During Baker's President of Gallifrey, we do see normal Gallifreyans living outside the cities, having children. Leela joins them, marrying a Gallifreyan guard and leaving the Doctor. So, my take is that the background charcters weren't regenning because that is reserved for Time Lords, the Elite.
After all, why would Rassilon let mere peons have that luxury?
It's a mistaken notion Leela has.NESBIN: Gallifrey invaded? Nonsense. That's impossible.
LEELA: How do you know? You're not a Time Lord.
NESBIN: Oh, but we are, or rather, we were until we decided to drop out.
LEELA: What is drop out? You fell?
NESBIN: All that peace and eternal tranquillity. We decided to get back to nature out here.
LEELA: Is this true?
RODAN: Well, I've heard it rumoured, but it's a subject that's never mentioned.
NESBIN: Well no, it wouldn't be. Might upset their cosy little world.
LEELA: Then you like fighting. Good.
The Outsiders were Time Lords, personally, who had elected to leave. While there might be some who're second generation, the notion that they're another society is not correct. They're merely Time Lords - and Nesbin here outright says "We are - were Time Lords" who have decided to live in a more vital, primitive way. They are as much Time Lords as the Doctor is, he just likes exploring space and time while they like shooting things with arrows.
A stronger case, actually is Rodan, from the same episode:
But there are numerous counterexamples, and this logic requires the doctor to be so callous that he never mentions the lower orders, ever, when speaking of Gallifrey and the Time Lords, which is ridiculous.RODAN: Why bother? That's their affair.
LEELA: That's whose affair?
RODAN: The guards and the Time Lords. All the boring people. Do you know, I've passed the Seventh Grade and I'm nothing more than a glorified traffic guard?
LEELA: Then you are a guard!
RODAN: Do stop cavorting about like that. It's really so undignified. (comm. beep) Not again. Excuse me. Space Traffic Control.
Of course, this scene indicates that this notion was seriously considered, but Invasion was such a dogs dinner in writing that it contains everything up to and including repeatedly breaking the fourth wall and generally being absurd. While it's noteworthy, I don't think its notions should in any way be taken to override the vast and consistent examples of "Time Lords are the population of Gallifrey and Time Lord is a race" from everything else.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Points conceded. I'm still disappointed though by what we saw of the time war though. Granted I'm not sure what would of been a worthy depiction, but I'm fairly sure that wasn't it.NecronLord wrote: No explanation is necessary. Most of the Doctor's regenerations have taken minutes from the trauma being inflicted, to the regeneration itself. Some of them have taken hours! (7-8 & 10-11). Even the time that the Doctor gets shot by a dalek:
The sum of the battle scenes here is a few minutes. There's no reason to think there were no regenerations going on, we just didn't see any of them. And of course, they can refuse to regenerate; would you want to regenerate if there's a dalek sitting over you about to shoot you in the face when you do?
Sorry, the Time Lords military equipment was established in the old series as having basic analogues of modern things.And when we see it it is generic future war.
Indeed, one of their forbidden weapons in the original series takes the form of a great big gun.
It would be blindingly stupid for no one, when the city is falling, to get out a gun. If they had fancy time weapons (and indeed they have the Final Sanction thingy, however that works) that look nothing like an ordinary gun, that's fine, there's no reason to think that having a hand-held item that makes hostile persons in your general vicinity die is an obsolete concept to them though.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
I think they did a pretty good job of foreshadowing, and introducing the resolution in advance, starting with the quote from Marcus Aurelius at the beginning..
"Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one"
Which may have literally been a pun for the whole movie.
So first, the scene with the rabbit just being a rabbit, it’s always the actor reprising the role after his run is done that gets to self parody, but beyond that, it demonstrated the Doctor's tendency to be dramatic, to be theatrical, at the expense of seeing a situation for what it is.
I don’t really have a problem with adding dimension to the fall of Galifrey, and I think it was very artfully done. You can’t change your personal history it’s time locked, but obviously the reason the doctor was shown that moment in the future with the shape shifters is because the Moment was showing him that he didn’t NEED to use a WMD, and wipe out two civilizations, he just needed to figure out how to break them apart during the climax of their battle, the same way he needed to break the two Lethbridges out of their brinksmanship. In that regard the purpose is NOT to wipe out the Daleks, so it is not a problem that they escaped and survived. It is also not a problem that Galifrey survives, rather than is destroyed it doesn’t undue RTD’s work, it builds on it, in what is frankly, a perfectly logical manner for the Doctor to employ as a timelord.
He understands the rules based on the universal absolutes, whether it’s a moment time locked in his personal history, or a bunker designed to prevent the TARDIS physical access, and found a different way in, to solve a problem.
The three screw drivers the doctor and the Dalek seemed like it was essentially what they planned to do to the door, only visited on a Dalek. Clara foreshadows her contribution at the end by pointing out that while 11 was busy with his plan, 10 was focused on Hurt, and Hurt had the solution ahead of the other two that he needed them for, all three of them had missed the obvious, that the door wasn't locked. So... I mean... the time war wasn't... exactly locked....
The Sonic Screwdriver is an Incredibly Powerful DEM… if you happen to have three timelords at three points in a timeline, separated by 400 years or so, it becomes a tool with the time to be used with unbelievable precision. This was done a third time too obviously when they used the TARDISes as a tool to move Galifrey out of time. The sonic wasn't exactly the tool of course, the software, the case, the incarnations of the doctor, and time. Maybe the Tardis as the case with the doctor as the software, maybe the companions are the software that changes cases, to pull the doctor out of his self obsession. Rose's avatar chosen by the Moment seemed to hint at that. The moment is another example of a sentient being that becomes a brief companion to the doctor, not entirely different from the Tardis. (Really.. REALLY hoping that at no point does no one decide to make the fricking screwdriver self aware.)
The solutions are there for the doctor to see, but true to his character, he was so wrapped up in himself, he didn’t realize the rabbit was just a rabbit. The clash between two epic civilizations, the war to end all wars, the impossible moment, is just another puzzle for him to find a solution to.
They were passing time around like the Fez, it was another demonstration of the particular tool the Doctor had at his disposal, time. The Fez. First 11 finds it in the museum, he throws it through the portal at the 10th doctor. The 10th doctor puts it on, but then the two of them throw it back to Hurt, who brings it back, Not sure if it was on purpose, but when Hurt says “Did anyone lose a fez” it completely vanishes in the next scene, but presumably it is dropped, picked up and preserved in the museum so that 11 can see it.
There is also a sub theme where Hurt openly mocks the two doctors for pointing their screw drivers at him like a weapon, the two had just had the recent experience of both using their screw drivers to no effect because they were working at cross purposes. Hurt ends up being the author of the manner in which the three of them can together use the screw driver to defeat the Dalek at the end.
The scarf was a larger nod as well, with it’s foreshadowing of Tom Baker’s future appearance. There’s probably a list of easter egg’s out there somewhere, like Jack’s time bracelet. Warnings about spoilers as an homage to River, telling the Queen he'd be "back in a minute" maybe a reference to what he told Amelia Pond, McGilon the technician the doctor calls, having the same name as the 8th doctor, Clara being a teacher a nod back to the original Doctor's companions, I'm not even sure there's a point in trying to keep track of them all.
.
"Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one"
Which may have literally been a pun for the whole movie.
So first, the scene with the rabbit just being a rabbit, it’s always the actor reprising the role after his run is done that gets to self parody, but beyond that, it demonstrated the Doctor's tendency to be dramatic, to be theatrical, at the expense of seeing a situation for what it is.
I don’t really have a problem with adding dimension to the fall of Galifrey, and I think it was very artfully done. You can’t change your personal history it’s time locked, but obviously the reason the doctor was shown that moment in the future with the shape shifters is because the Moment was showing him that he didn’t NEED to use a WMD, and wipe out two civilizations, he just needed to figure out how to break them apart during the climax of their battle, the same way he needed to break the two Lethbridges out of their brinksmanship. In that regard the purpose is NOT to wipe out the Daleks, so it is not a problem that they escaped and survived. It is also not a problem that Galifrey survives, rather than is destroyed it doesn’t undue RTD’s work, it builds on it, in what is frankly, a perfectly logical manner for the Doctor to employ as a timelord.
He understands the rules based on the universal absolutes, whether it’s a moment time locked in his personal history, or a bunker designed to prevent the TARDIS physical access, and found a different way in, to solve a problem.
The three screw drivers the doctor and the Dalek seemed like it was essentially what they planned to do to the door, only visited on a Dalek. Clara foreshadows her contribution at the end by pointing out that while 11 was busy with his plan, 10 was focused on Hurt, and Hurt had the solution ahead of the other two that he needed them for, all three of them had missed the obvious, that the door wasn't locked. So... I mean... the time war wasn't... exactly locked....
The Sonic Screwdriver is an Incredibly Powerful DEM… if you happen to have three timelords at three points in a timeline, separated by 400 years or so, it becomes a tool with the time to be used with unbelievable precision. This was done a third time too obviously when they used the TARDISes as a tool to move Galifrey out of time. The sonic wasn't exactly the tool of course, the software, the case, the incarnations of the doctor, and time. Maybe the Tardis as the case with the doctor as the software, maybe the companions are the software that changes cases, to pull the doctor out of his self obsession. Rose's avatar chosen by the Moment seemed to hint at that. The moment is another example of a sentient being that becomes a brief companion to the doctor, not entirely different from the Tardis. (Really.. REALLY hoping that at no point does no one decide to make the fricking screwdriver self aware.)
The solutions are there for the doctor to see, but true to his character, he was so wrapped up in himself, he didn’t realize the rabbit was just a rabbit. The clash between two epic civilizations, the war to end all wars, the impossible moment, is just another puzzle for him to find a solution to.
They were passing time around like the Fez, it was another demonstration of the particular tool the Doctor had at his disposal, time. The Fez. First 11 finds it in the museum, he throws it through the portal at the 10th doctor. The 10th doctor puts it on, but then the two of them throw it back to Hurt, who brings it back, Not sure if it was on purpose, but when Hurt says “Did anyone lose a fez” it completely vanishes in the next scene, but presumably it is dropped, picked up and preserved in the museum so that 11 can see it.
There is also a sub theme where Hurt openly mocks the two doctors for pointing their screw drivers at him like a weapon, the two had just had the recent experience of both using their screw drivers to no effect because they were working at cross purposes. Hurt ends up being the author of the manner in which the three of them can together use the screw driver to defeat the Dalek at the end.
The scarf was a larger nod as well, with it’s foreshadowing of Tom Baker’s future appearance. There’s probably a list of easter egg’s out there somewhere, like Jack’s time bracelet. Warnings about spoilers as an homage to River, telling the Queen he'd be "back in a minute" maybe a reference to what he told Amelia Pond, McGilon the technician the doctor calls, having the same name as the 8th doctor, Clara being a teacher a nod back to the original Doctor's companions, I'm not even sure there's a point in trying to keep track of them all.
.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Just saw it thanks to the iPlayer, so some initial thoughts:
I enjoyed it, first of all. Hurt's Doctor (War Doctor?) was great. It's nice to see this kind of older Doctor again. Despite the build up, it's good to see that he is, infact, definitely a Doctor. Intelligent, moral and carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. It's a shame we're not likely to see any more of him, I'd quite happily watch Hurt doing various things across the Time War.
Time Lord soldiers have pew-pew lasers and body armour. At least they've upgraded from the outfits that would make Star Trek: TMP's designers go 'wait, this looks silly'. I guess that super science is all well and good, but when you're fighting Daleks all you really need is something that can go through a Dalek's sheilds and kill it.
The siege of Gallifrey was impressive to see, all those ships in orbit does kind of live up to Nine's description. On a side note, some of those ships look like they're insanely huge, given that Gallifrey's about twice the size of Earth, moon-sized even. I don't recall seeing any return fire up from the planet, I guess their shields stop it, or whatever. I suppose the siege, using all available Daleks, does make sense given that it's a Time War. All other plans and strategies have failed or been countered before they started, so it just boils down to a slugging match.
I liked that there's really no central villain beyond the decision to press the button. Whilst the Zygons are there and the Daleks are on the edge of the story, the motivation and everything else flows from this decision that the War Doctor has to make. It was good to see the little cameos from the doctors, including 12, who's eyebrows evidently popped along to see what all the fuss was about.
Also, the Zygon complaining about getting a defective subject did get a chuckle from me. There's something you never really consider for shape-shifters.
Not entirely sure what Tom Baker's role is here. I approve of it and it was good to see, I'm just not sure if he's the Doctor of Series Past or the Doctor of Series Future. Or possibly an alternate Doctor of Future Past.
I'm not entirely sure if Kate Leithbridge-Stewart has a rank in UNIT at this point, or exactly who she's working for (may have just missed it). I do guess, however, that quite a lot of Torchwood's gadgets have been stored in the Black Vault given what it does and I'm pretty sure I saw one of those big hand-magnet... clamp things from Doomsday in there. Relatedly, while the Vault appears inexplicably TARDIS-proof, it does let the Vortex Manipualtor work and they did suggest that it may be capable of a two-way trip. Presumably the TARDIS-proofing is specific to actually letting the machine materialise rather than anything else.
Speaking of, we didn't see any other TARDISes flying around other than the Doctor's. Quite possibly the Time Lords were caught off-guard by the Daleks or they've hired Admiral Marcus as their fleet commander.
I'm sure there's other things to comment on, but those were some that struck me the first time through.
Definitely worth watching; the interplay between the Doctors is great, John Hurt steals the show and it all seemed to flow quite well. As someone who rather gave up on the last series or so of Ten and have only been dipping into Smith's episodes occasionally, I was impressed. It's not entirely perfect, but it was refreshing to see and I'd be quite happy to re-watch it a few times.
I enjoyed it, first of all. Hurt's Doctor (War Doctor?) was great. It's nice to see this kind of older Doctor again. Despite the build up, it's good to see that he is, infact, definitely a Doctor. Intelligent, moral and carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. It's a shame we're not likely to see any more of him, I'd quite happily watch Hurt doing various things across the Time War.
Time Lord soldiers have pew-pew lasers and body armour. At least they've upgraded from the outfits that would make Star Trek: TMP's designers go 'wait, this looks silly'. I guess that super science is all well and good, but when you're fighting Daleks all you really need is something that can go through a Dalek's sheilds and kill it.
The siege of Gallifrey was impressive to see, all those ships in orbit does kind of live up to Nine's description. On a side note, some of those ships look like they're insanely huge, given that Gallifrey's about twice the size of Earth, moon-sized even. I don't recall seeing any return fire up from the planet, I guess their shields stop it, or whatever. I suppose the siege, using all available Daleks, does make sense given that it's a Time War. All other plans and strategies have failed or been countered before they started, so it just boils down to a slugging match.
I liked that there's really no central villain beyond the decision to press the button. Whilst the Zygons are there and the Daleks are on the edge of the story, the motivation and everything else flows from this decision that the War Doctor has to make. It was good to see the little cameos from the doctors, including 12, who's eyebrows evidently popped along to see what all the fuss was about.
Also, the Zygon complaining about getting a defective subject did get a chuckle from me. There's something you never really consider for shape-shifters.
Not entirely sure what Tom Baker's role is here. I approve of it and it was good to see, I'm just not sure if he's the Doctor of Series Past or the Doctor of Series Future. Or possibly an alternate Doctor of Future Past.
I'm not entirely sure if Kate Leithbridge-Stewart has a rank in UNIT at this point, or exactly who she's working for (may have just missed it). I do guess, however, that quite a lot of Torchwood's gadgets have been stored in the Black Vault given what it does and I'm pretty sure I saw one of those big hand-magnet... clamp things from Doomsday in there. Relatedly, while the Vault appears inexplicably TARDIS-proof, it does let the Vortex Manipualtor work and they did suggest that it may be capable of a two-way trip. Presumably the TARDIS-proofing is specific to actually letting the machine materialise rather than anything else.
Speaking of, we didn't see any other TARDISes flying around other than the Doctor's. Quite possibly the Time Lords were caught off-guard by the Daleks or they've hired Admiral Marcus as their fleet commander.
I'm sure there's other things to comment on, but those were some that struck me the first time through.
Definitely worth watching; the interplay between the Doctors is great, John Hurt steals the show and it all seemed to flow quite well. As someone who rather gave up on the last series or so of Ten and have only been dipping into Smith's episodes occasionally, I was impressed. It's not entirely perfect, but it was refreshing to see and I'd be quite happy to re-watch it a few times.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Classic Moffat in that it has numerous scenes with great atmosphere and character moments, but combined into a muddled mess of a story with severe mood whiplash. Entertaining but a little disappointing in that slightly better framing could have given it that much more gravitas. Still an order of magnitude better than any RTD attempt at an epic finale.
I am ok with retconning the destruction of Gallifrey because while it was a good idea originally, we've explored enough guilt, agnst and regret for now. Rebuilding a shattered timelord civilisation is a new context with story potential. There are bound to be numerous old enemies who want to administer coupe de grace if the planet reappears, and it would be nice to subtitute another target for the usual 'everyone wants to invade/blow up Earth' for a while.
I am ok with retconning the destruction of Gallifrey because while it was a good idea originally, we've explored enough guilt, agnst and regret for now. Rebuilding a shattered timelord civilisation is a new context with story potential. There are bound to be numerous old enemies who want to administer coupe de grace if the planet reappears, and it would be nice to subtitute another target for the usual 'everyone wants to invade/blow up Earth' for a while.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Rassilon might try to start a civil war on Gallifrey, if say, the General tries to depose him, and the New Paradigm Daleks are still out there somewhere.DaveJB wrote:I got the impression that the Time Lords' actions in that story were born out of desperation and the threat of being destroyed by the Daleks and the other Time War horrors, rather than just doing it for the sake of being evil. That, and doubtless a bit of coercion and the threat of disintegration by Rassilon; in fact, he seemed to be the only one from that story who was actively relishing the idea of destroying reality. We never saw what the rank-and-file Time Lords were doing or thinking in the final days of the Time War.Crossroads Inc. wrote:What happened to Rassilon? Because in "The End of Time" it is made quite clear that what happened AFTER Gallifrey was time locked in the Time War. Is Rassilon and the high council still on Gallifrey? Because if so, they are some very very dangerous people.
With Gallifrey freed from the time lock and the threat of destruction, the Time Lords would probably and focus on rebuilding their world. Granted, I could see Rassilon wanting to go through with his plan to bring about the End of Time anyway, but odds are the other Time Lords would react by stuffing him back into the statue where they found him.
Not to mention what characters like Rani and the Master are up to.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
On a more cheerful note, maybe Gallifrey went into e-space, providing an excuse for Romana to make a reappearancePelranius wrote:Not to mention what characters like Rani and the Master are up to.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
another possibility is that there's simply none left due all but Doctor's and the Master's Tardises having been destroyed during the war or just not all that usefull, after all we must remember that the Doctor's TARDIS is a civilian model and while it's capable of taking a dalek or 2 if it caught's them off-guard it's no different from using an SUV to run over a soldier who doesn't know about the car.Vanas wrote:Speaking of, we didn't see any other TARDISes flying around other than the Doctor's. Quite possibly the Time Lords were caught off-guard by the Daleks or they've hired Admiral Marcus as their fleet commander.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Given what we saw in the Night of the Doctor, McGann could have filled Hurt's role seamlessly. Oh well.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
That's a nice thought. Wonder how long we'll have to wait until a Gallifrey centric episode shows up?Starglider wrote:On a more cheerful note, maybe Gallifrey went into e-space, providing an excuse for Romana to make a reappearancePelranius wrote:Not to mention what characters like Rani and the Master are up to.
This "retcon" of the Time War's ending does sort of make sense for why those Daleks ("Dalek" and the Emperor Dalek) popped up in the 9th Doctor's run.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Did we see the end of the Time War? The beginning? Or both? Remember, its not called "the Time War" just because it sounds cool- both races were capable of time travel and manipulating events on a massive scale. We were never told in the show what exactly triggered both factions to go all out. It's possible that the Doctor's actions in this episode were what triggered the war in the first place. He saves Gallifrey from what looks like an impending defeat, and Gallifrey goes MIA and presumed destroyed. When it's found and the rebuilt Dalek Empire eventually learns that it had survived, they panic and decide to launch an all out invasion... and thus the Time War begins anew. Perhaps he "saved" Gallifrey from falling by putting it into a never-ending paradox.
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Re: Doctor Who S33E14 "The Day of the Doctor" [Spoilers]
Finally got to see it. Honestly, if the ABC hadn't put it on 4 separate times, I might have had to work out this download thing.
Meh.
Didn't like the Doctor destroying everything being undone. Yes, he was probably angsting about it too much, but him having done that was one of the few things that gave him a little depth, instead of 2D perfect. I would have preferred them spend perhaps half a series of him coming to terms with it, and then getting on with his life.
Oh well, maybe I'm just not the same Doctor Who fan I used to be.
Meh.
Didn't like the Doctor destroying everything being undone. Yes, he was probably angsting about it too much, but him having done that was one of the few things that gave him a little depth, instead of 2D perfect. I would have preferred them spend perhaps half a series of him coming to terms with it, and then getting on with his life.
Oh well, maybe I'm just not the same Doctor Who fan I used to be.
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