Homeworld versus...

[The Nomad]

Choose your opponents : either the Federation, or the Empire, or any one of the Younger Races, or one of the Lansraad Houses, versus the Kushans and the Taidani Republic with possible intervention of the Bentusi and the Beast ( timescale : end of Cataaclysm, with all the techs, yes even the crystal propelled kickass Bentusi fighters )

[Mr Bean]

Empire:Speed Advantage, Range Advantage\
BAD ASS FIREPOWER ADVANTAGE
Sits at 100 KM then simply melts the ships down for scrap

Federation-Weak weapons but range advanatage, 500KM Torp Barrages by a smart Captain could put down any one invidual ship

[Lagmonster]

Ugh. I've played both Homeworld games. The Empire OR the Federation could unleash Ancient Ninja Fist-To-Nuts style on the Homeworld guys, at any level of strength. Homeworld weapons centre around, basically, guns. Bullets. Sure, they have 'ion cannons', but their aming sucks at the best of times and their power output is horrifically low. I doubt the Homeworld's best fleet could muster enough firepower to tear down a good Federation or Imperial fleet, let alone withstand any real bombardment on their hideously unmovable Motherships. I grant you, the Federation's limited tech would give them a harder time of it, but I'm still fairly sure their superior maneuverability in the capital-ship range and lack of reliance on fixed-forward weaponry would give them the edge.

[SirNitram]

The Federation would be dust. They have no defense against massed plasma attacks(Groups of bombers), nor the unholy vengeance of an Avatar Heavy Cruiser. And observed ranges of Trek put them WELL inside an ion beams range. What, are you going to claim they're to small to hit with ions?

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think that ST would have much of a problem against the Homeworld fleets. They would be a good matchup against the EA, the Narn, or potentially the Centauri, but I don't even think they would be able to beat the Minbari ship-for-ship. I think that the Nials would annihilate their scouts and interceptors. The Empire would just slaughter anyone in Homeworld.

[Lagmonster]

The Federation would be dust. They have no defense against massed plasma attacks(Groups of bombers), nor the unholy vengeance of an Avatar Heavy Cruiser. And observed ranges of Trek put them WELL inside an ion beams range. What, are you going to claim they're to small to hit with ions?

No, I said the ions were slow, not immovable. I'm quite in agreement that an ion hit would do a lot of damage to a Trek ship. But would a single Ion (with no other weapons) be able to take down a first-class Trek ship one on one? I have no disagreements that Trek commands flimsy, inefficient and weak ships, but I've seen enough of my ions get ripped up by little tiny mass drivers on fighters.

I think the problem here is the open-ended nature of the confrontation. Is it a Homeworlder fleet? Composed of what? A more specific challenge, perhaps: Like, could an average Trek vessel be a fighting match for an assault frigate, for example.

[SCVN 2812]

Homeworld's weapons could actually be fairly powerful but, their ships use mass drivers as their primary weapons but those shells definitely aren't moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light and they aren't that big.

All a Starfleet ship would need to do is sit back and unleash torpedo vollies, just a couple torps per capital ship would do it considering that there are observed mega and even gigaton level detonations and torpedos being launched from high orbit of a planet which is several dozen kilometers at the least, putting photons at considerably longer range than any Homeworld weapon, now the effectiveness of torpedos against fast moving objects is poor however not an issue since HW ships are only capable of moving at a few hundred meters a second, the fastest fighters almost a kilometer a second. A proximity detonated torpedo warhead would undoubtably destroy fighter and corvette squadrons since they can't take much punishment, just a few pops from one of the slow moving capital ship mass driver bullets is often enough to destroy them.

[SCVN 2812]

Oh and vs Star Wars, the HW ships will be looking like swiss cheese using high end weapon figures (ICS) now frankly I don't consider the expanded universe to even be anything close to Star Wars let alone a reliable source for information, but even the low end figures from sd.net and turbolaser commentaries put SW ships out of HW's league. Although there is the Taidan planet burner weapon but it would probably be of little use in starship battles, especially when yall your capital ships are being destroyed lightning fast by overwhelming weapons fire.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I wonder how they destroyed Kharak?

[The Nomad]

I SAID AT THE END OF CATACLYSM, therefore now they have preforming anti-ion shielding, plasma bolts as main weapons, ion guns that can shoot fighters with ease and let's not forget that they can do tactical hyperjump ( as in multiplayer ).

And let's not forget that a fleet of Taidan ( Id' say about 20 ) warships BDZ-ed half Kharak in about 4 seconds, it was a bombing, not a superweapon !!!

And the fact that they use magnetically-propelled bullets in early battles doesn't mean that the bullets aren't explosive ( kiloton ranged ).

And their motherships can survive multi-megaton asteroids impacts ( as seen in the first Homeworld ), which is not the case of many trek vessels. Of course one can say that their ion guns didn't vaporized the threatening asteroids, but it's a "hit points" and gameplay issue.

[Alyeska]

And their motherships can survive multi-megaton asteroids impacts ( as seen in the first Homeworld ), which is not the case of many trek vessels.

Example?

[SPOOFE]

And let's not forget that a fleet of Taidan ( Id' say about 20 ) warships BDZ-ed half Kharak in about 4 seconds

4 seconds? That planet remains half-destroyed for the entirety of that mission. If it gets completely BDZ-ed, that firestorm moves REAL slow....

[SPOOFE]

(Pressed Reply too quickly)

And the fact that they use magnetically-propelled bullets in early battles doesn't mean that the bullets aren't explosive ( kiloton ranged ).

Doesn't mean that they ARE, either. How about you provide some EVIDENCE for Homeworld weapons ranges?

Homeworld's weapon ranges are, at best, equal to the ultra-low-end estimates for Trek ranges (about 5 kilometers), and vastly inferior to even mid-end ranges. Their speed isn't all that great, their maneuverability isn't so hot, and their accuracy isn't the greatest. Homeworld depicts a relatively young space-faring race, and as such the quality of their ships reflect this.

Pit a Homeworld vessel against the Akiraprise.

[The Nomad]

And their motherships can survive multi-megaton asteroids impacts ( as seen in the first Homeworld ), which is not the case of many trek vessels.

Example?

The mission in the asteroid field. Considering that the MS is several km long, asteroids must be several hundreds of m large, and move at some tens of m/s. Didn't do the calculations however.

[The Nomad]

And let's not forget that a fleet of Taidan ( Id' say about 20 ) warships BDZ-ed half Kharak in about 4 seconds

4 seconds? That planet remains half-destroyed for the entirety of that mission. If it gets completely BDZ-ed, that firestorm moves REAL slow....

What ? They burnt half the planet, plain simple ( all the inhabitable face ). It took them about 5 seconds of bombings ( with huge explosions seen from orbit ). That's a half-BDZ, then.

[Master of Ossus]

And let's not forget that a fleet of Taidan ( Id' say about 20 ) warships BDZ-ed half Kharak in about 4 seconds

4 seconds? That planet remains half-destroyed for the entirety of that mission. If it gets completely BDZ-ed, that firestorm moves REAL slow....

What ? They burnt half the planet, plain simple ( all the inhabitable face ). It took them about 5 seconds of bombings ( with huge explosions seen from orbit ). That's a half-BDZ, then.

That is not a BDZ. A BDZ melts a planetary surface to a depth of at least one half of one mile, uniformly. It eliminates ALL life. That's not even close to a BDZ. It barely qualifies as the ST equivalent of a BDZ.

[Master of Ossus]

And their motherships can survive multi-megaton asteroids impacts ( as seen in the first Homeworld ), which is not the case of many trek vessels.

Example?

The mission in the asteroid field. Considering that the MS is several km long, asteroids must be several hundreds of m large, and move at some tens of m/s. Didn't do the calculations however.

You are correct, that is considerable, but also remember how many asteroids the MS can take and compare that to the number of ion weapons. The MS has good resistance to weapons, but it is nowhere near able to take SW weapons ranges. It would be a REASONABLE match-up against ST, but it would still lose to a few much smaller ships.

[SirNitram]

4 seconds? That planet remains half-destroyed for the entirety of that mission. If it gets completely BDZ-ed, that firestorm moves REAL slow....

What ? They burnt half the planet, plain simple ( all the inhabitable face ). It took them about 5 seconds of bombings ( with huge explosions seen from orbit ). That's a half-BDZ, then.

That is not a BDZ. A BDZ melts a planetary surface to a depth of at least one half of one mile, uniformly. It eliminates ALL life. That's not even close to a BDZ. It barely qualifies as the ST equivalent of a BDZ.

While I cannot vouch for the depth of the destruction, all life was definately smoked.

[Alyeska]

And their motherships can survive multi-megaton asteroids impacts ( as seen in the first Homeworld ), which is not the case of many trek vessels.

Example?

The mission in the asteroid field. Considering that the MS is several km long, asteroids must be several hundreds of m large, and move at some tens of m/s. Didn't do the calculations however.

Actually I was asking for proof that Trek ships couldn't survive multi-MT asteroid impacts.

[Alyeska]

Homeworld has two apparent advantages over both ST and SW. Mere carrier formations with 2 destroyer escort can smoke a whole planet. The other one is that the Homeworld forces have vastly superior industrial capabilities. A single mining vessel with just its own resources was able to reverse engineer, design, and create its own fighting vesels in only a few months time. An entire fleet of ships can be built in under a single day from an asteroid field similar to that of the one beyond Mars. Through use of micro jumps and massive forces, Homeworld fleets could devistate both SW and ST forces. That does not mean the SW or ST forces might loose, but the R&D and Industrial advantage the HW forces have is quite a threat. Just imagine what they might do with a captured Corellian Corvette or Excelsior, and use it against their current enemy?

[SCVN 2812]

I could have sworn I heard the Taidani order the use of a special weapon against the planet, I could be mistaken it's been a while since I played the mission. Either way it does suggest that the Taidan at least are capable of deploying gigaton scale devices or several hundred megaton devices. It wouldn't take much to wipe out life on the planet considering the tiny livable area.

HW does have superior industrial capacity, however it's limited by what they can crew. The largest allowed fleets max out at about 3 heavy cruisers, 6 destroyers, and a lot of frigates, corvettes, and fighters. Fighter swarming tactics probably could do some serious damage and the upgrade from low speed mass drivers to plasma weapons and the development of shields probably would even the odds some, but it doesn't negate the range advantage of Star Trek weapons which can be used from high orbit with extremely high accuracy - see TOS, the Kirk called down a phaser strike on hostile forces gathering and the Enterprise was able to precisely target them from orbit. Then of course there's the fact that 20 ships can show up at a planet, bomb it from high orbit and feel pretty confident about destroying it's crust in an hour.

[Master of Ossus]

Homeworld has two apparent advantages over both ST and SW. Mere carrier formations with 2 destroyer escort can smoke a whole planet. The other one is that the Homeworld forces have vastly superior industrial capabilities. A single mining vessel with just its own resources was able to reverse engineer, design, and create its own fighting vesels in only a few months time. An entire fleet of ships can be built in under a single day from an asteroid field similar to that of the one beyond Mars. Through use of micro jumps and massive forces, Homeworld fleets could devistate both SW and ST forces. That does not mean the SW or ST forces might loose, but the R&D and Industrial advantage the HW forces have is quite a threat. Just imagine what they might do with a captured Corellian Corvette or Excelsior, and use it against their current enemy?

How is that an advantage over SW? One ISD can BDZ a planet. One ISD is analogous to either a carrier or a destroyer (depending on how you look at it). Prove that HW has an industrial advantage over the Empire. The Empire built a DS in six months, secretly. That is VASTLY more than the industrial capability of HW. A fleet of ships does little good if that fleet is outgunned easily by a single capital ship from your opponents. None of these are remote advantages over the Empire. As for your capturing of enemy ships, proof that they could reverse engineer them? Proof that they could even capture them? Just because SCs can capture HW ships does not mean they could operate just as well against Imperial or Federation ships, which would likely just fire at the SC while it was attached to the other vessel.

[Alyeska]

Homeworld has two apparent advantages over both ST and SW. Mere carrier formations with 2 destroyer escort can smoke a whole planet. The other one is that the Homeworld forces have vastly superior industrial capabilities. A single mining vessel with just its own resources was able to reverse engineer, design, and create its own fighting vesels in only a few months time. An entire fleet of ships can be built in under a single day from an asteroid field similar to that of the one beyond Mars. Through use of micro jumps and massive forces, Homeworld fleets could devistate both SW and ST forces. That does not mean the SW or ST forces might loose, but the R&D and Industrial advantage the HW forces have is quite a threat. Just imagine what they might do with a captured Corellian Corvette or Excelsior, and use it against their current enemy?

How is that an advantage over SW? One ISD can BDZ a planet. One ISD is analogous to either a carrier or a destroyer (depending on how you look at it). Prove that HW has an industrial advantage over the Empire. The Empire built a DS in six months, secretly. That is VASTLY more than the industrial capability of HW. A fleet of ships does little good if that fleet is outgunned easily by a single capital ship from your opponents. None of these are remote advantages over the Empire. As for your capturing of enemy ships, proof that they could reverse engineer them? Proof that they could even capture them? Just because SCs can capture HW ships does not mean they could operate just as well against Imperial or Federation ships, which would likely just fire at the SC while it was attached to the other vessel.

An ISD can BDZ a planet with time. The Taidanii force were able to BDZ the planet in minutes.

While the DS was impressive, ISDs took time to build. Taidanii Heavy Cruisers are larger and can be built in under a day.

And as for the capturing issue. All it would take is having an ACV light off its EMP pulse to disable an enemy ship. Then all it takes is latching the capturing craft on board.

Lastly. You seem to not understand the advantage of numbers. When the HW forces can build litterally HUNDREDS of ships in a single day from a single carrier, that means in under a week the HW forces can build thousands of craft to use in an attack.

[Alyeska]

I could have sworn I heard the Taidani order the use of a special weapon against the planet, I could be mistaken it's been a while since I played the mission. Either way it does suggest that the Taidan at least are capable of deploying gigaton scale devices or several hundred megaton devices. It wouldn't take much to wipe out life on the planet considering the tiny livable area.

HW does have superior industrial capacity, however it's limited by what they can crew. The largest allowed fleets max out at about 3 heavy cruisers, 6 destroyers, and a lot of frigates, corvettes, and fighters. Fighter swarming tactics probably could do some serious damage and the upgrade from low speed mass drivers to plasma weapons and the development of shields probably would even the odds some, but it doesn't negate the range advantage of Star Trek weapons which can be used from high orbit with extremely high accuracy - see TOS, the Kirk called down a phaser strike on hostile forces gathering and the Enterprise was able to precisely target them from orbit. Then of course there's the fact that 20 ships can show up at a planet, bomb it from high orbit and feel pretty confident about destroying it's crust in an hour.

That was more game ballance then anything. We learned that the Kuun-Lan had no more then 2000 people total. Yet it was able to use those people to crew its entire fleet. The fleet you could build in Cataclysm was not much smaller then in the original, and in the original you had 500,000 people in cold freeze, so theoretically the HW forces can man thousands upon thousands of ships relatively easy. And all it takes is for them to capture but one ship from either SW or ST and the tides quickly change.

[Mr Bean]

That was more game ballance then anything. We learned that the Kuun-Lan had no more then 2000 people total. Yet it was able to use those people to crew its entire fleet. The fleet you could build in Cataclysm was not much smaller then in the original, and in the original you had 500,000 people in cold freeze, so theoretically the HW forces can man thousands upon thousands of ships relatively easy. And all it takes is for them to capture but one ship from either SW or ST and the tides quickly change.

Leap in Logic, the same idea is applyed by Rabid Trekies to the Borg saying that they could get ahold of a ISD and within a week be pumping out fleets of the things

Just because one can copy anothers tecnology does not mean they can copy everything

Or would you like to say that Homeworld ships violat Convervation of Energy and can make anything they want from rocks no matter how complex(Turbolasers and plantary shielding) to extremly rare(Hypermatter)