Archaeologist vs Physicists

[ray245]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ontroversy

Archaeologists and physicists are at loggerheads over ancient Roman lead—a substance highly prized by both camps for sharply diverging reasons. Very old lead is pure, dense and much less radioactive than the newly mined metal, so it is ideal for shielding sensitive experiments that hunt for dark matter and other rare particles. But it is also has historical significance, and many archaeologists object to melting down 2,000-year-old Roman ingots that are powerful windows on ancient history.

"Are these experiments important enough to destroy parts of our past, to discover something about our future?" says Elena Perez-Alvaro, an archaeology graduate student at the University of Birmingham in England, who wrote a paper on the dilemmas involved in Rosetta (pdf), an archeological journal published by the University of Birmingham. Some physicists argue that getting hold of the metal is worth fighting for. "These experiments can reveal some of the most fundamental properties of the universe, and answer questions such as what are we and where we come from," says physicist M. Fernando Gonzalez-Zalba of the University of Cambridge, who collaborated with Perez-Alvaro's investigation. "I think it's worth it."

Ancient Roman lead has been used in the Cryogenic Dark Matter Search (CDMS), an experiment in Minnesota that aims to detect the particles that make up the invisible dark matter thought to contribute much of the universe's mass. The same metal has also been used in the CUORE (Cryogenic Underground Observatory for Rare Events) project in Italy, which will soon begin searching for a theorized particle decay process called neutrinoless double beta decay, which, if found, could explain why matter dominates antimatter in the universe. These experiments and others require extreme shielding to block out any extraneous particles that might be mistaken for the rare signals they hunt.

The lead in question once went into the making of coins, pipes, construction materials and weapons in the ancient Roman civilization. It is most commonly found now at shipwreck sites, where private companies harvest it and melt down the Roman ingots into standard bricks before passing them on to customers—many of whom are physicists. "None of us take it casually—you don’t want historical artifacts to be destroyed unnecessarily," says physicist Blas Cabrera of Stanford University, who leads the CDMS project. Nevertheless, ancient lead is the best material available for shielding dark matter detectors, he says, because it releases so little radiation, or background particles. "The kind of background levels that you're achieving with ancient lead are roughly 1,000 times below that of commercially available lead."

All lead mined on Earth naturally contains some amount of the radioactive element uranium 235, which decays, over time, into another radioactive element, a version of lead called lead 210. When lead ore is first processed, it is purified and most of the uranium is removed. Whatever lead 210 is already present begins to break down, with half of it decaying on average every 22 years. In Roman lead almost all of the lead 210 has already decayed, whereas in lead mined today, it is just beginning to decay. (Of course, many lead 210 atoms have already decayed in this ore, too, but the supply is constantly replenished by uranium in unprocessed lead). "The longer since it was originally processed, the lower its intrinsic radioactivity," Gonzalez-Zalba says.

The Romans were not the first lead brick makers—the ancient Greeks were also manufacturing the building material about 200 years earlier. Whereas this lead probably also finds its way into some physics experiments, it is scarcer. And the supply of Roman lead is not exactly plentiful, either. "We may lose all ancient Roman lead—and therefore the information about ancient technology, shipping, trade, etcetera it can offer—if its use for this kind of purpose becomes widespread," says archaeologist John Carman, Perez-Alvaro's advisor at the University of Birmingham. By preserving the ingots, archaeologists hope to learn more about the technology, industry and culture of the Romans. Future technology may be able to pry more secrets out of the artifacts than present studies can do, so leaving the objects undisturbed, preferably at the shipwreck site, is ideal.

I would rather leave the ingots intact, mainly because it is far harder to recover any historical data if the physicists used it for their experiments.

[Thanas]

The main damage is not really just the lost ingots, it is also the fact that taking lead out of shipwrecks will involve in many cases the destruction of the shipwrecks. IMO this is little more than graverobbing done by idiots (= physicists) who don't understand a thing about the subjects involved.

[fgalkin]

The main damage is not really just the lost ingots, it is also the fact that taking lead out of shipwrecks will involve in many cases the destruction of the shipwrecks. IMO this is little more than graverobbing done by idiots (= physicists) who don't understand a thing about the subjects involved.

So we know a little less about the Romans. So fucking what? How does that advance humanity as a species? It doesn't.

I mean, the physics stuff they're working on is literally groundbreaking. The ingots? Roman shipwrecks? If no one bothered to put them in a museum in all those centuries they've been there, I guess they weren't very important, were they?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Eternal_Freedom]

^What he said. Also, it's not physicists going out and robbing shipwrecks, it's private companies. Calling physicists idiots because they priorities fundamental questions of the universe over obscure questions of Roman technology (which, lets be frank, doesn't matter one damn bit) is unwarranted.

[Thanas]

Who of the people declaring those pieces of technology useless actually has a degree in archeology? Nobody? Moving on.

The main damage is not really just the lost ingots, it is also the fact that taking lead out of shipwrecks will involve in many cases the destruction of the shipwrecks. IMO this is little more than graverobbing done by idiots (= physicists) who don't understand a thing about the subjects involved.

So we know a little less about the Romans. So fucking what? How does that advance humanity as a species? It doesn't.

Sure it does. Our society and culture is advanced by every new discovery, no matter the field.

I mean, the physics stuff they're working on is literally groundbreaking. The ingots? Roman shipwrecks? If no one bothered to put them in a museum in all those centuries they've been there, I guess they weren't very important, were they?

It is generally preferred by archeologists today to leave wrecks as they are. Less issues with conservation. Most wrecks are not able to be raised anyway. Not without blowing the GDP of several small countries. That money is not there, nor should that much money be spent on things we can just leave as they are and be perfectly fine with it for the next centuries at least.

In most fields of archeology, we constantly make discoveries to make future excavations better and more productive. Case in point - back when the Limes in Germany was first excavated, people did not know a lot of it. So they went into a frenzy to excavate and preserve - by encasing things in protective concrete. Turns out a few decades later such concrete is actually harmful to the excavated materials. Whooops. So people don't like to excavate things unless absolutely necessary or they can assure that it is done in a responsible way. With shipwrecks the technology is not there yet.

Also, things look completely unimportant to the untrained eye yet actually to trained eyes they are amazing. Take this piece of lead:

Looks just like a useless lead pipe, right? Nobody would ever miss it, so let us melt it down. Oh wait, actually it is the final piece in a puzzle which has astounded people for centuries. How the Romans were able to transport fresh fish from Britain all the way to Rome without it spoiling. Yeah, why wouldn't we ever be interested in that and the science of that operation?

Private companies scavenging shipwrecks are the biggest problems underwater archeologists face. People encouraging them is pretty maddening. It is grave-robbing and it is destroying things we will never get back. It also is not as if phsysicists could never work without anything else, it would just make it harder. Not impossible. But it is impossible to regain things which do not exist anymore.

[Thanas]

Not to mention what those private companies are doing is illegal.

""items are protected by UNESCO’s 2001 Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage if they have been under water more than 10 years and the 2003 Convention for Safeguarding Intangible Cultural Heritage. The Convention is quite clear on the matter “Underwater cultural heritage should not be commercially exploited for trade or speculation, and that it should not be irretrievably dispersed. This regulation is in conformity with the moral principles that already apply to cultural heritage on land. It is not to be understood as preventing archaeological research or tourist access.”"

[Eternal_Freedom]

[quote="Thanas"]Who of the people declaring those pieces of technology useless actually has a degree in archeology? Nobody? Moving on. [/quote[

Do you have a science degree even vaguely related to the fields these physicists are investigating?

[Thanas]

Who of the people declaring those pieces of technology useless actually has a degree in archeology? Nobody? Moving on. [/quote[

Do you have a science degree even vaguely related to the fields these physicists are investigating?

No, but I am not proposing destroying future discoveries and potentially whole fields of research to gain a minimal advantage in mine because I am not willing to wait a few decades, am I?

[fgalkin]

Who of the people declaring those pieces of technology useless actually has a degree in archeology? Nobody? Moving on.

Who of the people declaring those pieces of technology more important than the physics experiment actually has a degree in physics? Nobody? Moving on....

Sure it does. Our society and culture is advanced by every new discovery, no matter the field.

Cute. Except it's not really a discovery. Re-discovery at best.

It is generally preferred by archeologists today to leave wrecks as they are. Less issues with conservation. Most wrecks are not able to be raised anyway. Not without blowing the GDP of several small countries. That money is not there, nor should that much money be spent on things we can just leave as they are and be perfectly fine with it for the next centuries at least.

If they are just sitting there, then you have no right to complain when they are actually being used for something productive.

In most fields of archeology, we constantly make discoveries to make future excavations better and more productive. Case in point - back when the Limes in Germany was first excavated, people did not know a lot of it. So they went into a frenzy to excavate and preserve - by encasing things in protective concrete. Turns out a few decades later such concrete is actually harmful to the excavated materials. Whooops. So people don't like to excavate things unless absolutely necessary or they can assure that it is done in a responsible way. With shipwrecks the technology is not there yet.

Also, things look completely unimportant to the untrained eye yet actually to trained eyes they are amazing. Take this piece of lead:

Looks just like a useless lead pipe, right? Nobody would ever miss it, so let us melt it down. Oh wait, actually it is the final piece in a puzzle which has astounded people for centuries. How the Romans were able to transport fresh fish from Britain all the way to Rome without it spoiling. Yeah, why wouldn't we ever be interested in that and the science of that operation?

And the importance of that discovery to anyone other than specialists in the field is? We have refrigeration.

Private companies scavenging shipwrecks are the biggest problems underwater archeologists face. People encouraging them is pretty maddening. It is grave-robbing and it is destroying things we will never get back. It also is not as if phsysicists could never work without anything else, it would just make it harder. Not impossible. But it is impossible to regain things which do not exist anymore.

So, keep one ingot for study and melt down the rest. The physics research is literally revolutionary. There is nothing that an ancient civilization can give us that is even remotely comparable.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Who of the people declaring those pieces of technology useless actually has a degree in archeology? Nobody? Moving on. [/quote[

Do you have a science degree even vaguely related to the fields these physicists are investigating?

No, but I am not proposing destroying future discoveries and potentially whole fields of research to gain a minimal advantage in mine because I am not willing to wait a few decades, am I?

That's ironic, considering that's exactly what you're doing.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Thanas]

Who of the people declaring those pieces of technology more important than the physics experiment actually has a degree in physics? Nobody? Moving on....

Do you have a degree in physics? Or archeology? No? Moving on....

Destroying whole fields of science for what we will discover in a few decades anyway is not smart, nor even remotely proportional.

Cute. Except it's not really a discovery. Re-discovery at best.

If knowledge is lost forever, is rediscovery any different than discovery? Knowledge is what we can access. If we cannot access it, it is lost.

If they are just sitting there, then you have no right to complain when they are actually being used for something productive.

They are not just sitting there. Are you really this ignorant of basic principles of archeology? We raise what we can and in the opinion of experts should, then we compare things. Meanwhile, we regularly monitor things to make sure they are still where they are.

And the importance of that discovery to anyone other than specialists in the field is? We have refrigeration.

Do you visit museums? Are you interested in history? There is your answer.

Also, just a few weeks back we had an article posted on this very board of companies trying to recreate roman concrete because turns out it just is better and more environmental friendly than what we are using now. Yeah, no value in there either. Point is, we do not know what we will find.

So, keep one ingot for study and melt down the rest. The physics research is literally revolutionary. There is nothing that an ancient civilization can give us that is even remotely comparable.

That is in the eye of the beholder. I am sure many people don't care about either field, many people don't care about the LHC or whatever. It is insanity to greenlight sacrificing stuff for the sake of things we will discover sooner or later anyway. It is pure egotism, of the sort of small children. BUT I WANT MY CAKE NOW.

Also, lol at keep one ingot. You don't know that Roman ingots were highly individualized things, don't you? Every ingot had a special stamp.They are very important sources. Nor are all ingots equal etc.

Note that I have no issue whatsoever with the way the Italian museum did it. They photographed the stamps, weighed the ingots, took samples and generally documented the ingots. before smelting them down. That is okay. What is not okay is physicists buying illegally scavenged stuff that was not documented, nor analyzed, nor its origin cataloged. Have you seen how those scavengers operate? They are absolutely destroying wrecks. It puzzles me how anyone who is not some uneducated barbarian could think this is something to be supported.

Oh, btw, and scavenging is still illegal. Guess society does care about it after all.

[Thanas]

Another example: The Romans were able to supply Rome with five times the water per head than we were able to do today, with zero carbon emissions. Nobody would care about that either apparently.

[Dass.Kapital]

*Raises hand*

Um...why is Roman lead better at what the Physicists want to do with it than "Today's lead" exactly?

Why aren't metallurgists etc trying to figure out how the difference was achieved?

Um.....So...it's cheaper to stumble across Roman ruins/wrecks and hope they have useable lead to scavenge...More than it is to try and 'remake' said stuff today?

How does that even work?

Sorry...some one who's completely ignorant in all fields.

Much cheers to all.

[The Vortex Empire]

*Raises hand*

Um...why is Roman lead better at what the Physicists want to do with it than "Today's lead" exactly?

Why aren't metallurgists etc trying to figure out how the difference was achieved?

Um.....So...it's cheaper to stumble across Roman ruins/wrecks and hope they have useable lead to scavenge...More than it is to try and 'remake' said stuff today?

How does that even work?

Sorry...some one who's completely ignorant in all fields.

Much cheers to all.

Did you not read the article in the first post or something? It's explained right there.

All lead mined on Earth naturally contains some amount of the radioactive element uranium 235, which decays, over time, into another radioactive element, a version of lead called lead 210. When lead ore is first processed, it is purified and most of the uranium is removed. Whatever lead 210 is already present begins to break down, with half of it decaying on average every 22 years. In Roman lead almost all of the lead 210 has already decayed, whereas in lead mined today, it is just beginning to decay. (Of course, many lead 210 atoms have already decayed in this ore, too, but the supply is constantly replenished by uranium in unprocessed lead). "The longer since it was originally processed, the lower its intrinsic radioactivity," Gonzalez-Zalba says.

[Adam Reynolds]

Another example: The Romans were able to supply Rome with five times the water per head than we were able to do today, with zero carbon emissions. Nobody would care about that either apparently.

That is impressive, was that just within the city of Rome itself or was it also some of the outlying areas?

On some level this debate reminds me of the concept of physics envy as stated by physics undergrads, the idea that their field is inherently more difficult and rigorous than the social sciences and therefore superior. While there certainly is some truth to that concept in terms of the difficultly of what they are doing, that doesn't necessarily say that it is more significant a field of discovery. A reasonable system is that shown here, the physicists are funding proper archaeology and in the process getting some of the material found. The fundamental problem here is economic, increasing the value of anything always leads to people destroying things for the quick money that don't care at all about the value of what was destroyed. In that sense it is no different that the recent surge in copper thefts as the scrap value has increased, with cases where thousands of dollars in damage were caused for hundreds worth of scrap. While obviously the inherent value of the physics being done here is better than the motive of copper thieves, those destroying the sites for the commercial value caused by physicists have non such scruples.

snip

It's based on radioactive decay, literally the only way for it to work is to wait. Ironically this is largely the same principle as radiometric dating(popularly called carbon dating but often using other elements as well) that is frequently used in archaeology. I'm not an expert at all but I would think that the same principles used in nuclear engineering to enrich uranium would also be applicable to this problem. While there is the issue that non-proliferation treaties would make this somewhat of an issue, if it is valuable enough to destroy archaeological sites, it should be valuable enough to fight politically for the ability to create it artificially. There is also the issue of time again, even if it sped up the process it could still take decades, hence the desire for the solution now.

[bilateralrope]

Another example: The Romans were able to supply Rome with five times the water per head than we were able to do today, with zero carbon emissions. Nobody would care about that either apparently.

The amount of water supplied per head of population doesn't sound that impressive without knowing how the population numbers compare.

Note that I have no issue whatsoever with the way the Italian museum did it. They photographed the stamps, weighed the ingots, took samples and generally documented the ingots. before smelting them down. That is okay.

This is a very reasonable compromise.

[Borgholio]

Aren't we able to use uranium enrichment technology for lead instead? Expensive, sure. But that lead could potentially be even more pure than the Roman stuff.

[Thanas]

The amount of water supplied per head of population doesn't sound that impressive without knowing how the population numbers compare.

Depending whose estimate you go by, either 1-2.5 million, so going from half to about the same.

This is a very reasonable compromise.

They apparently also kept the stamps (sliced off), which makes it even better. But I don't get why people are so avid in destroying everything old just for a minute advantage.

[madd0ct0r]

it's a bit better then a minute advantage Thanas - you're talking about reducing a huge source of background noise by 1000 times.

and you've already stated a lead selling procedure that'd satisfy you - so just set up a license system and all are happy.

[Thanas]

it's a bit better then a minute advantage Thanas - you're talking about reducing a huge source of background noise by 1000 times.

Right.

and you've already stated a lead selling procedure that'd satisfy you - so just set up a license system and all are happy.

Except for those scumbag physcists who bought stuff from scavengers and who might do it again once the supply of licensed stuff runs out. What then?

[madd0ct0r]

Seeing as scavenging is already illegal and there's an avenue for a legal supply, what do you propose?

You're seeing red over this single line:

It is most commonly found now at shipwreck sites, where private companies harvest it and melt down the Roman ingots into standard bricks before passing them on to customers—many of whom are physicists.

which dosen't actually tell us anything about the private companies, where they operate, the quality of their operations or indeed whether they're being licensed by the government already. Is that worth checking before declaring them to be immoral grave robbers?

[Thanas]

Seeing as scavenging is already illegal and there's an avenue for a legal supply, what do you propose?

Nothing. I don't see the problem with legal supply, I see the problem with cheaper illegal supply being used via third parties.

You're seeing red over this single line:

It is most commonly found now at shipwreck sites, where private companies harvest it and melt down the Roman ingots into standard bricks before passing them on to customers—many of whom are physicists.

which dosen't actually tell us anything about the private companies, where they operate, the quality of their operations or indeed whether they're being licensed by the government already. Is that worth checking before declaring them to be immoral grave robbers?

No. It is very rare for private companies to get salvage rights unless they are the first to find a wreck. It will be impossible for them to get salvage rights (unless the wrecks are in the territory of the north african states who do not care that much about the rule of law) if what they are going to do is going to pose a very strong risk to the shipwrecks.

The reason I distrust private companies is because salvage done right is very expensive, especially the older the wreck is. It is also illegal. Therefore every private company operating here is by definition breaking the law already - so why would they care about the wrecks?

[K. A. Pital]

I'm seriously wondering what to make of it. Humanity is like that. We poison lakes and rivers to make way for science and industry since a very, very long time. It is also true that we are careless with history. Some people expected less of it when we transitioned to advanced science. I expect more of it. I expect cyberpunk.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'm seriously wondering what to make of it. Humanity is like that. We poison lakes and rivers to make way for science and industry since a very, very long time. It is also true that we are careless with history. Some people expected less of it when we transitioned to advanced science. I expect more of it. I expect cyberpunk.

If only people actually cared about those effects. As long as they can get their new iPad(now thinner instead of actually having anything new), most don't seem to care about how it was made.

[Replicant]

The main damage is not really just the lost ingots, it is also the fact that taking lead out of shipwrecks will involve in many cases the destruction of the shipwrecks. IMO this is little more than graverobbing done by idiots (= physicists) who don't understand a thing about the subjects involved.

So we know a little less about the Romans. So fucking what? How does that advance humanity as a species? It doesn't.

I mean, the physics stuff they're working on is literally groundbreaking. The ingots? Roman shipwrecks? If no one bothered to put them in a museum in all those centuries they've been there, I guess they weren't very important, were they?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Let me guess this right, to POSSIBLY learn some THEORETICAL knowledge about the universe that will not have any day to day application physicists are willing to violate international treaty and STEAL then DESTROY historical artifacts. And you have the arrogance to support this stance?

Yeah,

Have a nice day.