Archaeologist vs Physicists

[Eternal_Freedom]

Bloody hell did you even read the OP? The physicists are not the ones looting shipwrecks. They are just purchasing the best material for the job, and that material happens to come from shipwrecks salvaged (properly or otherwise) by private companies. Learn to fucking read.

[Thanas]

Bloody hell did you even read the OP? The physicists are not the ones looting shipwrecks. They are just purchasing the best material for the job, and that material happens to come from shipwrecks salvaged (properly or otherwise) by private companies. Learn to fucking read.

There is no way the scientists here would not ask where the material comes from and if it is from a private company it will most likely be stolen. So unless one takes the Italian example Replicant is pretty much correct here.

[Eternal_Freedom]

He said that:

"physicists are willing to violate international treaty and STEAL then DESTROY historical artifacts."

No, the physicists are not stealing or destroying artefacts, just buying materials. You can argue about whether that is wrong or right as much as you like, but you can't say they are actually stealing and/or destroying artefacts and as a scientist I resent the accusation.

[bilateralrope]

The amount of water supplied per head of population doesn't sound that impressive without knowing how the population numbers compare.

Depending whose estimate you go by, either 1-2.5 million, so going from half to about the same.

So between 2.5 and 5 times the water supplied today. That is impressive.

Are there any mysteries that the shipwrecks might help solve ?

Bloody hell did you even read the OP? The physicists are not the ones looting shipwrecks. They are just purchasing the best material for the job, and that material happens to come from shipwrecks salvaged (properly or otherwise) by private companies. Learn to fucking read.

There is no way the scientists here would not ask where the material comes from and if it is from a private company it will most likely be stolen. So unless one takes the Italian example Replicant is pretty much correct here.

ray245 didn't quote the second page of the article:

The law surrounding this dispute is murky. The 2001 UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage (pdf) prohibits commercial exploitation of historical shipwreck artifacts. Whether that applies to physics experiments is unclear. "Because the final use of the lead is for knowledge, not actually for the marketplace, this lies somewhere in between," Gonzalez-Zalba says. "This is where the regulation is not 100 percent clear about it." Both archaeologists and physicists say better guidelines are necessary. "We need the sort of deep analysis of the issues involved that Elena is undertaking, followed by a serious debate involving all interested parties, including international bodies such as UNESCO, to construct a set of clear guidelines that will hopefully protect the interests of the scientific community, including that of archaeology," Carman says.

Ultimately, all parties seek a compromise that will preserve history yet enable cutting-edge physics. After all, the Romans were famous innovators, and would probably smile to know how their lost ingots were being used today.

The Italian example sounds like the compromise both sides are looking for.

[Thanas]

He said that:

"physicists are willing to violate international treaty and STEAL then DESTROY historical artifacts."

No, the physicists are not stealing or destroying artefacts, just buying materials. You can argue about whether that is wrong or right as much as you like, but you can't say they are actually stealing and/or destroying artefacts and as a scientist I resent the accusation.

And I repeat - there is no way they are not researching where the material comes from. If it does not come from the Italian sources it is stolen.

EDIT: To elaborate: Considering Roman ingots span a period of over 700 years, they definitely need to know what wreck they are coming from to know the age.

Are there any mysteries that the shipwrecks might help solve ?

Yes.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Like I said, you can argue about the correctness of buying such goods, but it is not physicists who are stealing and destroying artefacts. There is enough to discuss here without making physicistsoutto be some history-destroying bogeymen.

[Thanas]

Like I said, you can argue about the correctness of buying such goods, but it is not physicists who are stealing and destroying artefacts. There is enough to discuss here without making physicistsoutto be some history-destroying bogeymen.

Given that they are the ones financing the destruction and know full well what they are financing, I see them as the ones directly ordering the destruction of wrecks, given that without them nobody would destroy the wrecks for ingots.

[Eternal_Freedom]

And yet, they are not stealing and destroying artefacts, are they? Are physicists going out on ships and destroying shipwrecks? No. And as the very same article posted, the laws here are murky at best. Ultimately it comes down to a subjective choice, whether you think preserving Roman history or answering fundamental questions of the universe is more more important.

Which do you think the Romans would choose?

[Thanas]

And yet, they are not stealing and destroying artefacts, are they? Are physicists going out on ships and destroying shipwrecks? No.

The difference of them is the difference between a mob boss and his cronies. Both are equally guilty. If I would hire thieves to destroy the LHC would you argue I was less guilty than the ones carrying out the act?

Ultimately it comes down to a subjective choice, whether you think preserving Roman history or answering fundamental questions of the universe is more more important.

No, it does not. It comes down to whether one discipline of science has the right to destroy the other for theoretical questions which only apply to a part of their entire field. The tradeoff is not fair. Would you be okay with me demanding all physics to be destroyed if it would yield me one historical text more? And besides, what right does physics have to the wrecks? Did they find them in the first place? No. Did they survey them? No. Did they pay for centuries of work going into underwater archeology? No. By what right do they demand the fruits of the labor of archeologists without giving anything back?

It also is not equal to sacrifice dozens of avenues of research to get just one. It is childish and selfish.

Which do you think the Romans would choose?

Given how the Romans valued old things and viewed tradition and their history to be the most important thing ever definitely the history part.

[K. A. Pital]

Not so sure that you can compare consumers to mob bosses. Physicists here are in the position of a drug addict - they create a demand which fuels the rise of an illegal market. The mob boss is the chief of the plundering operations.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Again, physicists aren't the one's taking the wrecks, so your whole rant about:

"Did they find them in the first place? No. Did they survey them? No. Did they pay for centuries of work going into underwater archeology? No. By what right do they demand the fruits of the labor of archeologists without giving anything back?"

I thought your whole complaint was that the wrecks were being salvaged without archeologists around so that seems like a tangent to me.

And your comparison to thieves nicking the LHC is bullshit. One, good luckactuallystealign the thing, two, physicists are buying materials for use in experimentsand trying to get the best possible materials for the job. They are actually going to be producing useful data, they aren't taking this stuff for kicks.

[Thanas]

Not so sure that you can compare consumers to mob bosses. Physicists here are in the position of a drug addict - they create a demand which fuels the rise of an illegal market. The mob boss is the chief of the plundering operations.

True. But it is more like drug addicts going out of their way to score Marihuana when it is already leagal in the state.

Again, physicists aren't the one's taking the wrecks, so your whole rant about:

"Did they find them in the first place? No. Did they survey them? No. Did they pay for centuries of work going into underwater archeology? No. By what right do they demand the fruits of the labor of archeologists without giving anything back?"

I thought your whole complaint was that the wrecks were being salvaged without archeologists around so that seems like a tangent to me.

It is the same thing. Without physicists being dickhead scumbags and ordering clearly illegal materials from clearly illegal sources the difference is miniscule.

And your comparison to thieves nicking the LHC is bullshit. One, good luckactuallystealign the thing, two, physicists are buying materials for use in experimentsand trying to get the best possible materials for the job. They are actually going to be producing useful data, they aren't taking this stuff for kicks.

Again, the difference what they are buying it for is immaterial. It is like me employing a bunch of thieves for the purpose of feeding the poor. It is still stealing. It is still immoral. It is still fucking scummy. Especially as there are no poor people around here, only dickheads with an entitlement complex. "Our things are so very important that it does not matter how illegal these things are. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Ignore the fact that without us buying stuff none of this would happen."

Seriously, the arrogance supporting this stance is off the charts. Because physics is oh so very special it deserves special treatment. No, it does not. It is just one of the natural sciences, and just one of many sciences in general. It should not get special favors. If I were to knowingly buy stolen goods I would be in trouble with the law. The same should apply to any physicist getting caught with stolen material.

[Borgholio]

I think a good comparison would be people who buy illegal ivory to make sculptures with. Sure, you can get some remarkably beautiful pieces of art out of it...but if you know the ivory is illegal, then by buying it you are directly funding the slaughter of elephants by poachers. How can the artist NOT take blame for it when his actions are the root of problem?

[K. A. Pital]

True. But it is more like drug addicts going out of their way to score Marihuana when it is already leagal in the state.

If there's a legal way to fill most of the demand, yes. If there's none, it is pretty much the same as a drug market or the illegal transplant market. None of which are nice, of course.

[Steel]

I disagree that the physicists buying the stuff must know where it came from and must know that it is being illegally salvaged destroying historical artefacts etc etc.

The most likely thing is that there are several layers between the salvage and the people doing experiments. The closest I can see an actual research scientist getting to buying this is looking in a scientific supplies catalogue, then asking his department to get them some inert lead, and so a request goes off to whoever deals with procurement at their institution and after 6 months a block of lead turns up at the lab. Did you have visions of a bunch of physicists going to a meeting site in the middle of nowhere with a briefcase full of money to make an exchange with some shady scrap metal dealers?

The only thing a buyer can verify about this material is its radioactivity. When you're buying this you can hover a geiger counter over it and verify that its a thousand times less radioactive. If you were to ask where it came from then you might be told it came from decommissioned soviet something or others. You have no way of knowing that there even is a harmful way of obtaining it. This is totally different to ivory as there is only one place that can come from, and the elephant is not going to be ok with it.

[K. A. Pital]

If the only way to get inert lead is to get Roman lead, this apriori means that regardless of how they buy it, they are fully aware of where it originates from. Let's not kid ourselves here. "Decommissioned Soviet something"? How is that going to have inert lead? Unless you are talking about decommissioned warships, which do not use this type of lead, I'm not sure what this even means. Particle accelerators weren't ravaged you know.

So it is, for all intents and purposes, the same as ivory unless there's some other source of inert lead than ancient civilizations.

[Borgholio]

Again, I can't help but wonder if calutrons or centrifuges can be used for isotope separation. Works for uranium, why not lead?

[Steel]

If the only way to get inert lead is to get Roman lead, this apriori means that regardless of how they buy it, they are fully aware of where it originates from. Let's not kid ourselves here. "Decommissioned Soviet something"? How is that going to have inert lead? Unless you are talking about decommissioned warships, which do not use this type of lead, I'm not sure what this even means. Particle accelerators weren't ravaged you know.

So it is, for all intents and purposes, the same as ivory unless there's some other source of inert lead than ancient civilizations.

There could be thousands of tons used for plumbing that were removed for being health hazards floating around?

Why would a researcher who says "Get me something less radioactive to shield my experiments" be expected to have any clue where the procurement department gets its lumps of metal from? Let alone know that there even could be an unethical way of getting lead? Especially as there are ethical ways of getting ancient roman lead that has been used for historical research and then sold on.

Can anyone actually cite any instance where this evil homogeneous body of physicists has actually bought illegal lead? All the article says is that physicists do buy this type of lead, and there are illegal sources, but never actually shows any evidence that lead has been purchased by physicists from illegal sources. We learn that there are legitimate sources which have supplied experiments. At the moment without any evidence you're condemning an entire field. If that evidence is presented only then can we move on to the balance of harms in using a small quantity of this material in very high profile cutting edge scientific experiments.

[Thanas]

There could be thousands of tons used for plumbing that were removed for being health hazards floating around?

No as most of the Roman lead used by them was melted down during the middle ages and reused. Shipwrecks are the only source of Roman metal quantitites (also, the Roman lead still above the surface is either in very much protected buildings (like in Rome) or so small in quantity that it is very hard to find (Roman slingshot) and also protected by law.

Why would a researcher who says "Get me something less radioactive to shield my experiments" be expected to have any clue where the procurement department gets its lumps of metal from? Let alone know that there even could be an unethical way of getting lead? Especially as there are ethical ways of getting ancient roman lead that has been used for historical research and then sold on.

Surely you can't be that naive as to believe scientists would actually go "hu-humm, this has the exact properties of Roman lead but I won't really inquire as to where it comes from despite me wrecking my experiments if it is impure".

Can anyone actually cite any instance where this evil homogeneous body of physicists has actually bought illegal lead? All the article says is that physicists do buy this type of lead, and there are illegal sources, but never actually shows any evidence that lead has been purchased by physicists from illegal sources. We learn that there are legitimate sources which have supplied experiments. At the moment without any evidence you're condemning an entire field. If that evidence is presented only then can we move on to the balance of harms in using a small quantity of this material in very high profile cutting edge scientific experiments.

http://www.agenciasinc.es/en/News/Contr ... -neutrinos

In the 18th century, another ship loaded with lead ingots was wrecked on the French coast. A company of treasure hunters retrieved this material and, despite problems with French authorities, managed to sell it to the Cryogenic Dark Matter Search (CDMS) team. This detector located in a mine in Minnesota (USA) looks for signs of the enigmatic dark matter, which is believed to constitute a quarter of the universe.

So we already have US scientists being scumbags and buying it, despite French authorities trying to intervene. You can't really claim the americans bought these things in good faith. Those scientists involved should be barred from science for the rest of their lives as well as serve prison terms.

[K. A. Pital]

From the link:

Roman lead is essential for conducting these experiments because it offers purity and such low levels of radioactivity – all the more so the longer it has spent underwater – which current methods for producing this metal cannot reach.

I think this nails it. There's no other source for this type of lead. It is scavenging. So unless they buy it all from museums like they did in the CUORE case, they know they're getting in a shady deal. Either museum or black scavengers. It's that simple.

[Steel]

There could be thousands of tons used for plumbing that were removed for being health hazards floating around?

No as most of the Roman lead used by them was melted down during the middle ages and reused. Shipwrecks are the only source of Roman metal quantitites (also, the Roman lead still above the surface is either in very much protected buildings (like in Rome) or so small in quantity that it is very hard to find (Roman slingshot) and also protected by law.

Ok.

Why would a researcher who says "Get me something less radioactive to shield my experiments" be expected to have any clue where the procurement department gets its lumps of metal from? Let alone know that there even could be an unethical way of getting lead? Especially as there are ethical ways of getting ancient roman lead that has been used for historical research and then sold on.

Surely you can't be that naive as to believe scientists would actually go "hu-humm, this has the exact properties of Roman lead but I won't really inquire as to where it comes from despite me wrecking my experiments if it is impure".

The thing that makes it useful is that it is very low radioactivity, not that it is stamped with a roman seal. You can test how radioactive something is.

Can anyone actually cite any instance where this evil homogeneous body of physicists has actually bought illegal lead? All the article says is that physicists do buy this type of lead, and there are illegal sources, but never actually shows any evidence that lead has been purchased by physicists from illegal sources. We learn that there are legitimate sources which have supplied experiments. At the moment without any evidence you're condemning an entire field. If that evidence is presented only then can we move on to the balance of harms in using a small quantity of this material in very high profile cutting edge scientific experiments.

http://www.agenciasinc.es/en/News/Contr ... -neutrinos

In the 18th century, another ship loaded with lead ingots was wrecked on the French coast. A company of treasure hunters retrieved this material and, despite problems with French authorities, managed to sell it to the Cryogenic Dark Matter Search (CDMS) team. This detector located in a mine in Minnesota (USA) looks for signs of the enigmatic dark matter, which is believed to constitute a quarter of the universe.

So we already have US scientists being scumbags and buying it, despite French authorities trying to intervene. You can't really claim the americans bought these things in good faith. Those scientists involved should be barred from science for the rest of their lives as well as serve prison terms.

From the link:

Roman lead is essential for conducting these experiments because it offers purity and such low levels of radioactivity – all the more so the longer it has spent underwater – which current methods for producing this metal cannot reach.

I think this nails it. There's no other source for this type of lead. It is scavenging. So unless they buy it all from museums like they did in the CUORE case, they know they're getting in a shady deal. Either museum or black scavengers. It's that simple.

Now hang on, the article says that someone took lead ingots from an 18th century wreck, which is a totally different thing to roman lead. We still have ships from that era. The one that did use roman lead is the one that bought it legitimately!

[Thanas]

The thing that makes it useful is that it is very low radioactivity, not that it is stamped with a roman seal. You can test how radioactive something is.

And by doing so you know how old it is and also know where it comes from (the tests done are apparently so precise that they are able to find where the lead was mined). That eliminates good faith.

Now hang on, the article says that someone took lead ingots from an 18th century wreck, which is a totally different thing to roman lead. We still have ships from that era. The one that did use roman lead is the one that bought it legitimately!

It was illegally scavenged either way and they bought it despite "trouble" with the French government. That makes them scumbags who should face the punishment for graverobbing.

Also, 18th century wrecks are no less important than Roman wrecks. And - if they are willing to scavenge one wreck illegally they are more than willing to destroy others.

[K. A. Pital]

I am not sure the lead ingots scavenged on the French wreck were 18th century production, either.

[Dr Roberts]

Plenty of the lead is sourced legally which is what is expected by physicists. A physicist doesn't personally go and get it they order it from catalogues expecting it to be keg ally sourced.

[K. A. Pital]

The one purchased from Lemer Pax was trouble; they knew it, but went forward.