Pistols through ages?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

One item I am looking at is the first powerful double action revolver. . . .The .41 LC is a bit anemic

Edit: I want to thourily explore existing pistols before going to custom weapons

First successful double-action revolver was the Adams revolver patented in 1851 in Britain. Although double-action, it was cap-and-ball and loaded at the muzzle with a separate powder charge. I believe S&W made double-action revolvers in the 1850's, but they were chambered in .22 caliber. Can't find info on the interwebs about this, so I am recalling a book I have at home and can reference when I get back.

In the 1850's, your character would most likely have carried something along the lines of a Colt M1851 Navy or 1848 Dragoon, depending on whether concealment would have been a priority (Dragoon is very large compared to most pistol's today).

In the 1860's, he might have switched to a Colt 1860 Army, which would be more powerful than the Navy and more practical than the Dragoon. He might have converted it to use metallic cartridges instead of the musket-like cap-and-ball system. S&W held the patent on cartridges during this decade, but many individuals converted their Colts. (Again, this comes from a book I have at home, will need to double-check the facts).

In the 1870's, he would either use a Colt 1873 SAA or S&W Model 3. Both used cartridges, but the S&W would break-open at the top and was much easier to load at the expensive of having a less powerful (but still strong) cartridge and being regarded as somewhat less sturdy and reliable. It is unlikely that someone who has depended on single-action revolvers for decades would switch to a double-action at any time before the 20th century.

If concealment is not an issue, the character would probably also use lever-action rifles such as the Winchester M1873, which was more powerful than almost any revolver, held more rounds, and had much greater range and accuracy.

This character would probably not switch to .38 caliber revolvers that became popular in the early 20th century, preferring the more powerful .45 Colt or .44 S&W he has been using for decades at this point, but would probably start using the .45 ACP Colt 1911 after its effectiveness was proven in WW1, and would use it until at least the 1980's or 90's. At this point, he would either keep using his trusty 1911 or switch to a high-capacity 9mm, probably a Glock. Whether he would make this switch depends on whether can use hollow-point bullets or needs to use special rounds (silver, holy water, etc). With HP ammo, the modern 9mm has much greater ammo capacity than the old .45, substantially less recoil, and virtually indistinguishable lethality, a no-brainer for someone who regularly tangles with dangerous creatures. Without it, the .45 ACP has much greater killing power and he might stick with that.

[Lonestar]

A brand new M1911 would have been quite an expensive investment for a private citizen immediately after they went on sale to the general public, though. For the first few years literally no other handgun in existence fired the same round, and not many gunsmiths would've carried spare parts or known how to repair it if it was damaged or jammed in some way the owner couldn't fix themselves.

Adoption by the US Military would have ameliorated that quite a bit. Much like how no one was shooting .223 Remington until the US military adopted the AR-15 platform.

Also, if they are immortal presumably they have a lot more liquid assets than your average factory worker.

If it isn't just a matter of concealment, there is something to be said of a revolver in .45 Colt and a Lever-action in it as well. Mind, this is all at the turn of the century. There's a reason why Wardens use Glocks in the Dresdenverse; they are pretty much the last word in rugged, simple, reliable, higher capacity sidearms.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

One item I am looking at is the first powerful double action revolver. . . .The .41 LC is a bit anemic

Edit: I want to thourily explore existing pistols before going to custom weapons

That would be the double-action gun Colt came out with the following year, the Colt Double Action Model of 1878, which was available in all the large-bore center-fire revolver cartridges of the day (including such powerhouses as the .45 Colt and the .44 Winchester Center-Fire.) Although, the Webley British Bull Dog revolver was also double-action and began production in 1872 (and many nameless Belgian clones of questionable quality following later on); although the most powerful cartridge available for it was the .450 Adams, which featured a 225 grain bullet traveling at 650 ft/sec. Both of these guns loaded like the Colt Single-Action Army from 1873 (i.e. one cartridge at a time.)

However, in 1881, Smith and Wesson came out with the .44 Double-Action 1st Model; this gun was, as all big-bore S&W guns of the day were, a top-break action, meaning that reloading was a lightning-fast process because the gun could be opened and the mechanism would automatically eject all the empty cartridges from the cylinder. In 1887, the first big Webley Self-Extracting Revolvers (also top-break double-actions) went into production. The Smith and Wesson guns typically came in .44 Russian (the ancestor to the .44 Special and .44 Magnum cartridges,) and the Webley Mk. I came in .455 Webley.

In 1898, Colt came out with the first modern swing-out cylinder large-caliber double-action revolver, the New Service. (They'd started making swing-out cylinder revolvers as early as 1889; but these fired the .38 Long Colt and .41 Long Colt rounds, and were widely panned by troops fighting in the Spanish-American War for their complete lack of stopping power.) Smith and Wesson wouldn't catch up until 1907, with their .44 1st Model Hand-Ejector, which fired their new .44 Special cartridge.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

One item I am looking at is the first powerful double action revolver. . . .The .41 LC is a bit anemic

Edit: I want to thourily explore existing pistols before going to custom weapons

First successful double-action revolver was the Adams revolver patented in 1851 in Britain. Although double-action, it was cap-and-ball and loaded at the muzzle with a separate powder charge. I believe S&W made double-action revolvers in the 1850's, but they were chambered in .22 caliber. Can't find info on the interwebs about this, so I am recalling a book I have at home and can reference when I get back.

In the 1850's, your character would most likely have carried something along the lines of a Colt M1851 Navy or 1848 Dragoon, depending on whether concealment would have been a priority (Dragoon is very large compared to most pistol's today).

Dragoons weighed the best part of four pounds. The typical frontier "gunfighter" carried the lighter Colt 1851 Navy revolver; and many stuck with them through the end of the 1860s (they were light, handy, accurate, and didn't cost a small fortune like the later 1860 Army revolvers did.) To get around the problem of percussion-cap revolvers being so miserably slow to reload, more than a few carried a pair of the guns.

And the gun Smith and Wesson made in the late 1850s was a single-action .22 revolver. What was notable about it was the fact that it was the first successful metallic-cartridge gun, utilizing self-contained rimfire ammunition (what's now called the .22 Short, to be exact.)

In the 1860's, he might have switched to a Colt 1860 Army, which would be more powerful than the Navy and more practical than the Dragoon. He might have converted it to use metallic cartridges instead of the musket-like cap-and-ball system. S&W held the patent on cartridges during this decade, but many individuals converted their Colts. (Again, this comes from a book I have at home, will need to double-check the facts).

There were a few conversion systems available for cap-and-ball revolvers that changed them over to some sort of metallic cartridge firing mechanism, but they weren't especially effective. When the large-caliber Smiths and Colts (and to some lesser extent, Remingtons and Merwin-Hulberts, and all the Belgian 'Bull Dog' clones) became available during the early and mid 1870s, these conversions were quickly abandoned.

[Kitsune]

One item I am looking at is the first powerful double action revolver. . . .The .41 LC is a bit anemic

Edit: I want to thourily explore existing pistols before going to custom weapons

That would be the double-action gun Colt came out with the following year, the Colt Double Action Model of 1878, which was available in all the large-bore center-fire revolver cartridges of the day (including such powerhouses as the .45 Colt and the .44 Winchester Center-Fire.) Although, the Webley British Bull Dog revolver was also double-action and began production in 1872 (and many nameless Belgian clones of questionable quality following later on); although the most powerful cartridge available for it was the .450 Adams, which featured a 225 grain bullet traveling at 650 ft/sec. Both of these guns loaded like the Colt Single-Action Army from 1873 (i.e. one cartridge at a time.)

However, in 1881, Smith and Wesson came out with the .44 Double-Action 1st Model; this gun was, as all big-bore S&W guns of the day were, a top-break action, meaning that reloading was a lightning-fast process because the gun could be opened and the mechanism would automatically eject all the empty cartridges from the cylinder. In 1887, the first big Webley Self-Extracting Revolvers (also top-break double-actions) went into production. The Smith and Wesson guns typically came in .44 Russian (the ancestor to the .44 Special and .44 Magnum cartridges,) and the Webley Mk. I came in .455 Webley.

In 1898, Colt came out with the first modern swing-out cylinder large-caliber double-action revolver, the New Service. (They'd started making swing-out cylinder revolvers as early as 1889; but these fired the .38 Long Colt and .41 Long Colt rounds, and were widely panned by troops fighting in the Spanish-American War for their complete lack of stopping power.) Smith and Wesson wouldn't catch up until 1907, with their .44 1st Model Hand-Ejector, which fired their new .44 Special cartridge.

Thanks, was hitting no mans land as far what guns to chose during the late 1800s and early 1900s

Question for anybody, are there any weapons that rival the Glock 20 for power and capacity among modern pistols (15 10 mm rounds) - Reason why I ask is a lot of my modern characters have gone with it.

[Batman]

I'm...not sure why the conventional firepower of the pistol matters, really when you're shooting undead which typically just ignore ordinary bullets drilling holes into them? Or is that different in your setting?
Both the H&K Mk23 and USP come in .45ACP with 12-round-magazines and while I seem to recall there being some problems with the Mk23 I can't offhand remember anybody complaining about the USP.

[Kitsune]

Just assume that power does matter for ease of discussion
There are otehr meanies like demons that are not killed through piercing the heart
Werewolves are killed with silver but they are still far tougher against silver than a normal human would be against normal bullets

[Batman]

Um-if even using silver has less effect on werewolves than ordinary bullets have on ordinary humans you really want to think about ditching the pistol and breaking out the 40mm grenade launcher.

[Kitsune]

You can at least carry pistols concealed unlike a 40 mm grenade launcher
You can also get a hold of a pistol while not that easy to get grenade launchers
An argument could be made for a 12 gauge however

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Question for anybody, are there any weapons that rival the Glock 20 for power and capacity among modern pistols (15 10 mm rounds) - Reason why I ask is a lot of my modern characters have gone with it.

Sure. There are conversions for the various M1911-pattern guns that convert them to fire a cartridge known as the .460 Rowland. This cartridge drives the same .452" 230 grain standard .45 ACP bullet to over 1300 ft/sec (compared to the standard .45 ACP's ~870 ft/sec for the same bullet, or the ~1150 ft/sec that the Glock 20 achieves with a 220 grain .401" bullet.) Mind you, the M1911's single-stack design only permits 7-10 rounds in the magazine; although a good conversion will apparently allow the firing of .45 ACP and .45 ACP +P loads.

[Batman]

Not to mention that 40mm grenade launchers won't come around until the mid-20th century as I recall but at least the single shot ones aren't all that more bulky than shotguns (which would indeed have been my next suggestion) and significantly more powerful (at least with real world munitions) than pistols. And I'm not sure how the concealability of a weapon that is moderately useless to begin with is much of a concern. If I have to machine-gun a werewolf with silver bullets to kill it me being able to concealed carry a pistol firing them doesn't look all that particularly useful.

[Kitsune]

Not to mention that 40mm grenade launchers won't come around until the mid-20th century as I recall but at least the single shot ones aren't all that more bulky than shotguns (which would indeed have been my next suggestion) and significantly more powerful (at least with real world munitions) than pistols. And I'm not sure how the concealability of a weapon that is moderately useless to begin with is much of a concern. If I have to machine-gun a werewolf with silver bullets to kill it me being able to concealed carry a pistol firing them doesn't look all that particularly useful.

Going too far. Need a good solid hit to a vital organ with a relatively heavy caliber pistol round to kill a werewolf not tha you need a machine gun. Think of them as trying to take down a person on speed.

[Batman]

Um-that's pretty much the way it works with ordinary bullets for ordinary humans?

[Kitsune]

Um-that's pretty much the way it works with ordinary bullets for ordinary humans?

I think if I get shot in a non vital location with a .380, I will curl up in a ball and cry

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Not to mention that 40mm grenade launchers won't come around until the mid-20th century as I recall but at least the single shot ones aren't all that more bulky than shotguns (which would indeed have been my next suggestion) and significantly more powerful (at least with real world munitions) than pistols. And I'm not sure how the concealability of a weapon that is moderately useless to begin with is much of a concern. If I have to machine-gun a werewolf with silver bullets to kill it me being able to concealed carry a pistol firing them doesn't look all that particularly useful.

Going too far. Need a good solid hit to a vital organ with a relatively heavy caliber pistol round to kill a werewolf not tha you need a machine gun. Think of them as trying to take down a person on speed.

Then why not just use a revolver in something like .454 Casull? A 300 grain .45 caliber bullet will hit 1650 ft/sec leaving a 7.5" double-action revolver. A 360 grain bullet will exceed 1425 ft/sec. If you need more, then there's always the .460 S&W Magnum, which will drive a 395 grain bullet to over 1500 ft/sec (or a 200 grain bullet to 2300 ft/sec ... i.e. rifle velocities out of an 8.5" barrel.)

[LaCroix]

The problem with those hand artillery pieces is recoil, and recovery time - if there is a werewolf coming at you, you want a gun you can do a precise follow-up shot as quickly as possible. If you use something like a Casull, or one of those monstrosities chambered in .50, you better hope your first, hectic shot is perfectly on target, because it might be the only on e you get off before it is upon you.

[Beowulf]

A small caliber pistol with a larger capacity magazine may have an advantage over hand cannons anyway, as you can conceivably get more material down range in a given time, and potentially cause more damage than the hand cannon, as you end up with the target fairly well peppered with bullets. This is especially so if you have an full auto pistol, or a trigger finger like Jerry Miculek's...

[Thanas]

^Yeah, that seems to be the best option. Or just use one of those compact SMGs like the H&K MP5k or so.

(The first underworld movie had pretty cool guns for fighting supernaturals).

[Kitsune]

A small caliber pistol with a larger capacity magazine may have an advantage over hand cannons anyway, as you can conceivably get more material down range in a given time, and potentially cause more damage than the hand cannon, as you end up with the target fairly well peppered with bullets. This is especially so if you have an full auto pistol, or a trigger finger like Jerry Miculek's...

Art the range, I can fire just as accurately with a .45 as most of the other officers do with 9 mm pistols.
The 10 mm might require a bit more wrist strength but I don't think it has the same problems as a .50 desert eagle.
In many cases, a large capacity automatic also has the advantage of the idea that if you miss that you can fire again.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If ammo capacity is a problem, could you not have your guy use/convert/build extended magazines for a 1911 or a large-calibre Glock? If he's been using said 1911 for 40-plus years it stands to reason he would have reached a similar conclusion.

Of course, it may not be possible to have such magazines for a 1911, but it seem to me to be the best of both worlds. He can have a standard magazine loaded for ease of conealment and swap it for an extended one should the need arise.

[Lonestar]

Art the range, I can fire just as accurately with a .45 as most of the other officers do with 9 mm pistols.
The 10 mm might require a bit more wrist strength but I don't think it has the same problems as a .50 desert eagle.
In many cases, a large capacity automatic also has the advantage of the idea that if you miss that you can fire again.

Also, I think it's safe to assume that for a supernatural type, even if you are a crack shot you'll need more ammo for more beasties.

If there are faeries and such you could use Tulammo with bimetal jackets that would probably be pretty painful all on it's own.

[Forgothrax]

For more modern periods, a cut-down folding carbine is probably concealable. Something custom in high caliber. You can get down to 24" or so length. Accuracy will be shit past a certain point, but certainly better than a pistol, and magazine size will be significantly better. Assuming your beastie-hunter is only biologically immortal, or is a relatively weak supernatural, hunting already puts him at a significant disadvantage; being forced to use pistols as a primary weapon only makes things worse.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

The problem with those hand artillery pieces is recoil, and recovery time - if there is a werewolf coming at you, you want a gun you can do a precise follow-up shot as quickly as possible. If you use something like a Casull, or one of those monstrosities chambered in .50, you better hope your first, hectic shot is perfectly on target, because it might be the only on e you get off before it is upon you.

That works against the semi-automatic as well. All you're likely to get with it is one shot before the werewolf/charging grizzly bear/angry lion/whatever is on top of you, so you'd might as well make that one shot count. There's good reason why large-caliber revolvers are favored over semi-automatics in places where there are large, dangerous, wildlife ... although a lightweight high-power rifle, or a shotgun is even better; although neither of those are exactly easy to conceal ... unless you've got a large character with fascination for full-length, heavy coats.

But, as others have said, in modern times; with the appropriate connections, one could have a (relatively) easy-to-conceal automatic weapon with surprising potency. For example, the H&K MP5 apparently comes in a 10mm Auto flavor.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If a shotgun is ideal but difficult to conceal,why not use one of the larger revolvers that can hold .410 shotgun cartridges? It's less effective at range but will be much more effective close-in.

[Lonestar]

If a shotgun is ideal but difficult to conceal,why not use one of the larger revolvers that can hold .410 shotgun cartridges? It's less effective at range but will be much more effective close-in.

.410 is a shit round for defense.