The New SW Canon

[jwl]

So have they confirmed what level of canon the movie 7 will be yet? Because presumably, under the current system it will be c-canon because Lucas isn't contributing.

Lucas is absolutely contributing. He has already stated that he has worked on the story and will be consulting on it as it develops and when the movie is being made.

That aside, live action movies are established as the official source that everything stems from so whether it is called 'G' or 'M' (movie) or 'S' (source) or whatever, it is still 'G'-canon.

Thanks.

[RogueIce]

So, this is the New New Canon:

Official 'Star Wars' canon can now include Expanded Universe stories
By Chaim Gartenberg on January 7, 2014 07:34 pm

The Star Wars franchise is changing. Yesterday, Leland Chee, the curator of the Star Wars canon, started tweeting that the existing canon hierarchy would be leveled off, giving the Expanded Universe of novels, video games, comic books, and characters the same standing as the original movies going forward. This single move is a boon for longtime Star Wars fans, but it may also mean many stories simply won't ever get adapted.

Since Disney’s acquisition of Star Wars, the Expanded Universe has been left relatively unaffected — save for Disney ensuring that Marvel would tell all Star Wars comic stories by 2015. This new streamlined hierarchy, however, means that the upcoming Star Wars sequels may now draw concepts and content from classic EU stories and video games. In the past, Lucasfilm has relied on the Holocron, a ranked catalogue of the Star Wars stories and facts to manage contradictions. Now, everything is on equal footing going forward.

The idea of going forward is key here. The potential for rich, fan-pleasing storytelling is incredible here (to say nothing about how much money Disney could make creating Mara Jade toys). But that's far from a guarantee. Empire Strikes Back writer Lawrence Kasdan had previously commented that he was "trying to start fresh" with his work on the upcoming Star Wars sequels and spin-offs. This news effectively creates a whole new canon. So if by Episode VIII fans meet Grand Admiral Thrawn, all the better. But no one should hold their breath.

Please discuss.

[Adam Reynolds]

How can the existing EU possibly have the same standing as the original movies if the new movies are going to start fresh? I fail to see how it can ever truly be on the same level, the only way that would work is if they also rejected parts of the original movies which would be suicidal from the perspective of keeping the fan base pleased. Completely ignoring it going into the future with the new movies does seem like a better idea overall both to attract more casual viewers who know nothing of the EU as well as to avoid some of the worse elements(I doubt anyone would want to see elements taken from The Crystal Star) while not being selective about what is used which would create a canon disaster as even KJA has fans. Though I partially dislike the idea as it also takes away some good stories, it would almost be better it it was used as a completely alternative continuity.

There is also the problem that elements of the existing EU, especially the post-NJO series are outright contradictory with both each other and the existing canon, not to mention the problem with the timing of the Clone Wars and the numbers debates involving that era. It makes little sense calling it canon when it isn't even remotely self consistent. This also doesn't mention the recent Clone Wars series at all which also seems odd as Lucas was involved in that personally. As the movies are higher than the cartoons and now the current EU is on that level, do earlier(written between AOTC and ROTS) novels now have a higher canon status than the later series?

[RogueIce]

Actually it seems to be saying that from this point forward the EU will be equal to the movies. Which means any new stuff created, or at least presumably started with Disney or Marvel as they're probably not including whatever DHC finishes out with their comics or any other stuff left over from existing deals pre-purchase.

I fully expect most of the post-ROTJ EU to get tossed on its ear when Ep7 rolls around. They might keep various names and some elements, but the stories themselves are as good as gone. But all the new tie-in stuff that'll be produced (as well as Rebels I imagine) will all be equal to the movies now, no more tiers. I imagine TCW will also be elevated; they'll probably decide what to keep and what to toss from the pre-Disney EU as the scripts for the new movies and stuff start coming out. Probably on a case-by-case basis: if the new Boba Fett movie contradicts The Bounty Hunter Wars so much for those books, etc.

Essentially my read is that there will be, more-or-less, two 'tiers' of continuity now. "Pre-Disney" which'll be kept or discarded as new stuff comes out, and "Post-Disney" which when it comes out will automatically trump the old stuff, be the same level as the movies, and theoretically be consistent within itself thanks to the Story Group.

I say "theoretically" because I think we all know how that's going to turn out five years from now, but hey, at least it's more than just a couple dudes at Lucasfilm now.

[Silver Jedi]

While I wouldn't say these articles are completely full of shit, they partially full of shit. In addition to massively oversimplifying the state of canon before, they're definitely misrepresenting what Leeland Chee said on twitter. This is the actual twitter conversation Mr. Chee (@HolocronKeeper) had. The relevant bit:

Star Wars Canon is now determined by the Lucasfilm Story Group which @infinata [Pablo Hidalgo] and I are both a part of.

@HolocronKeeper Does that mean all projects from here on out that Story Group touch are canon? Or is there still a G- T- C- etc on new stuff

@StephenVincent More so than ever, the canon field will serve us internally simply for classification rather than setting hierarchy.

@HolocronKeeper @StephenVincent Are you implying that the goal is to dispose of the hierarchy and have one cohesive canon?

@12MG12 @StephenVincent That's definitely a primary goal of the Story Group.

So, It looks like instead of Chee keeping the holocron, or simply an established hierarchy, this "Lucasfilm Story Group" will manage canon by committee, and they're not going to be restrained by the old G/T/C/etc. conventions (much less the older hierarchy). A radical shakeup like this makes sense moving forward; it also gives me hope that they'll try to incorperate at least some of the exsisting post-ROTJ EU into the new trilogy. Exactly how this breaks down remains to be seen, though.

[RogueIce]

Outside of some names and stuff, I don't get why people seem to be clinging that somehow, the post-ROTJ EU will remain intact. Sure, as somebody said on TFN, "It's unlikely they'll rename Ithorians just because" and certainly Coruscant being called as such came from the EU. So minor stuff like that will likely survive.

But the stories? Kaput. With Crucible they're up to 45 years after ANH basically completely filled in! I sincerely doubt Abrams, Kasdan or anyone else involved with writing Ep7 would even want to be constrained by so much baggage in making the new movie, much less will bother with it.

The best EU fans can hope for is that stuff won't be explicitly contradicted and thus still "exist" in continuity, but we ain't gonna see LOTJ or anything like that translated to the big screen. It's not going to happen.

[Silver Jedi]

I pretty much agree, and honestly don't mind losing most of it. There were some good stories in there, but a whole lot of it was shit. Like, the Thrawn trilogy was pretty good, as were most of the X-Wing books. But Darksaber? Admiral Daala? Waru? The GFFA will be well rid of that shit.

[the atom]

So, It looks like instead of Chee keeping the holocron, or simply an established hierarchy, this "Lucasfilm Story Group" will manage canon by committee, and they're not going to be restrained by the old G/T/C/etc. conventions (much less the older hierarchy). A radical shakeup like this makes sense moving forward; it also gives me hope that they'll try to incorperate at least some of the exsisting post-ROTJ EU into the new trilogy. Exactly how this breaks down remains to be seen, though.

How did you read that from the conversation? From what I read Chee is confirming pretty specifically here that they're basically abolishing the hierarchy, and that the old G-T-C system is now for classification as opposed to hierarchy.

[Connor MacLeod]

This will make no difference whatsoever in the long term. People either accept things as they are mindlessly, or interpret the 'new' situation to fit what they think makes sense, or they'll outright ignore it whole or in parts and just do what they've always done. 'Canon', at least in a vs context, has always been used more as a club for one group to beat other groups into submission over or to validate one point of view over another. Which is why canon debates often become as nitpicky as the debates of the actual evidence itself can be.

[StarSword]

So, this is the New New Canon:

Official 'Star Wars' canon can now include Expanded Universe stories
By Chaim Gartenberg on January 7, 2014 07:34 pm

The Star Wars franchise is changing. Yesterday, Leland Chee, the curator of the Star Wars canon, started tweeting that the existing canon hierarchy would be leveled off, giving the Expanded Universe of novels, video games, comic books, and characters the same standing as the original movies going forward. This single move is a boon for longtime Star Wars fans, but it may also mean many stories simply won't ever get adapted.

Since Disney’s acquisition of Star Wars, the Expanded Universe has been left relatively unaffected — save for Disney ensuring that Marvel would tell all Star Wars comic stories by 2015. This new streamlined hierarchy, however, means that the upcoming Star Wars sequels may now draw concepts and content from classic EU stories and video games. In the past, Lucasfilm has relied on the Holocron, a ranked catalogue of the Star Wars stories and facts to manage contradictions. Now, everything is on equal footing going forward.

The idea of going forward is key here. The potential for rich, fan-pleasing storytelling is incredible here (to say nothing about how much money Disney could make creating Mara Jade toys). But that's far from a guarantee. Empire Strikes Back writer Lawrence Kasdan had previously commented that he was "trying to start fresh" with his work on the upcoming Star Wars sequels and spin-offs. This news effectively creates a whole new canon. So if by Episode VIII fans meet Grand Admiral Thrawn, all the better. But no one should hold their breath.

Please discuss.

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of EU haters suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

[Adam Reynolds]

Actually it seems to be saying that from this point forward the EU will be equal to the movies. Which means any new stuff created, or at least presumably started with Disney or Marvel as they're probably not including whatever DHC finishes out with their comics or any other stuff left over from existing deals pre-purchase.

That does make more sense.

This will make no difference whatsoever in the long term. People either accept things as they are mindlessly, or interpret the 'new' situation to fit what they think makes sense, or they'll outright ignore it whole or in parts and just do what they've always done. 'Canon', at least in a vs context, has always been used more as a club for one group to beat other groups into submission over or to validate one point of view over another. Which is why canon debates often become as nitpicky as the debates of the actual evidence itself can be.

It has always been the case that most fans simply take the same philosophy as religions and ignore the parts that they dislike and only pay attention to those that backup their ideas about the universe.

I pretty much agree, and honestly don't mind losing most of it. There were some good stories in there, but a whole lot of it was shit. Like, the Thrawn trilogy was pretty good, as were most of the X-Wing books. But Darksaber? Admiral Daala? Waru? The GFFA will be well rid of that shit.

I had a longer point about the problems with the Thrawn trilogy but the brunt of it is that even though he is among the best authors, he did start the ball rolling on many of the problems of the later EU. Things like rampant minimalism and Luke being beaten up by newcomers were done by him first, not to mention the issues with kryptonite lizards and cloned force users. While Zahn is among the best authors to write in the EU and I especially like his style of writing action* he also took away from some of the mythic elements that made the movies so good.

* In the annotated copy of Heir to the Empire he made the comment that a conflict should be written as an idealized chess game between the two players and that the loser should have overlooked something rather than made an outright error. He also is of the camp of writing in adventure fiction that believes that character death is a poor way to make the situation more intense and that it should rely on being clever instead.

[Enigma]

I'd prefer they dump the EU and reintroduce select characters back into the new EU. Bring back Thrawn but in a new story. Like this they can prune out the trash and reinvigorate the more popular characters.

[Havok]

Why? If you aren't introducing Thrawn in Heir to the Empire then what's the fucking point? Mara Jade is already going to be unworkable, and for that matter so is Thrawn. What made him cool was that he had a connection to the Emperor and no one else, that his exile seemed plausible, that his story seemed plausible. So you are going to introduce him now, instead of 5 years after ROTJ, 32 years after ROTJ which is how much Luke Skywalker will have aged when this movie comes out? If he isn't the Grand Admiral coming back to reclaim the Empire then he is just a blue dude with red eyes.

The only way ANY of the post ROTJ EU can be shoehorned in is if they bring back the original cast in a "lets have us a flashback" movie capacity.

[Crayz9000]

Latest update, straight from the horse's mouth.

tl;dr: The current Expanded Universe is being re-branded as "Star Wars Legends". Only the movies and TV shows will be considered canon, but elements of the Expanded Universe may show up in canon.

[Dalton]

Could be a chance, although minor, that the Thrawn trilogy would be pretty much unscathed.

Really hope Tim Zahn is involved somehow.

[the atom]

Only the movies and TV shows will be considered canon, but elements of the Expanded Universe may show up in canon.

Nyet comrade. Like the last 50 times some underpaid journalist proclaimed the final death of the EU, it's a bad misinterpretation of the actual announcement.

For over 35 years, the Expanded Universe has enriched the Star Wars experience for fans seeking to continue the adventure beyond what is seen on the screen. When he created Star Wars, George Lucas built a universe that sparked the imagination, and inspired others to create. He opened up that universe to be a creative space for other people to tell their own tales. This became the Expanded Universe, or EU, of comics, novels, videogames, and more.

While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.

Now, with an exciting future filled with new cinematic installments of Star Wars, all aspects ofStar Wars storytelling moving forward will be connected. Under Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy's direction, the company for the first time ever has formed a story group to oversee and coordinate all Star Wars creative development.

"We have an unprecedented slate of new Star Wars entertainment on the horizon," said Kennedy. "We're set to bring Star Wars back to the big screen, and continue the adventure through games, books, comics, and new formats that are just emerging. This future of interconnected storytelling will allow fans to explore this galaxy in deeper ways than ever before."

In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers and also preserve an element of surprise and discovery for the audience, Star Wars Episodes VII-IX will not tell the same story told in the post-Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe. While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.

Demand for past tales of the Expanded Universe will keep them in print, presented under the new Legends banner.

On the screen, the first new canon to appear will be Star Wars Rebels. In print, the first new books to come from this creative collaboration include novels from Del Rey Books. First to be announced, John Jackson Miller is writing a novel that precedes the events of Star Wars Rebels and offers insight into a key character's backstory, with input directly from executive producers Dave Filoni, Simon Kinberg, and Greg Weisman.

And this is just the beginning of a creatively aligned program of Star Wars storytelling created by the collaboration of incredibly talented people united by their love of that galaxy far, far away....

Basically they're saying that new material isn't going to be beholden to the old (AKA 'Sorry nerds, we're not making a Thrawn movie') and reaffirming that the stuff Lucas made is above everything else (AKA What we've all known since 2005).

[Crayz9000]

Basically they're saying that new material isn't going to be beholden to the old (AKA 'Sorry nerds, we're not making a Thrawn movie') and reaffirming that the stuff Lucas made is above everything else (AKA What we've all known since 2005).

How is that any different from what I said? The Expanded Universe, as it currently stands, is being rebranded as Star Wars Legends. Legends will not be considered canon but that doesn't prevent canon from borrowing settings or concepts from Legends. There's nothing clear about where new post-Legends novels fall, aside from their status as subservient to canon a la the old EU.

[the atom]

Basically they're saying that new material isn't going to be beholden to the old (AKA 'Sorry nerds, we're not making a Thrawn movie') and reaffirming that the stuff Lucas made is above everything else (AKA What we've all known since 2005).

How is that any different from what I said? The Expanded Universe, as it currently stands, is being rebranded as Star Wars Legends. Legends will not be considered canon but that doesn't prevent canon from borrowing settings or concepts from Legends. There's nothing clear about where new post-Legends novels fall, aside from their status as subservient to canon a la the old EU.

Where was it said that stuff under Legends was non-canon?

[Crayz9000]

Where was it said that stuff under Legends was non-canon?

Star Wars Episodes VII-IX will not tell the same story told in the post-Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe

The way I read that, every post-RotJ book will be placed under the Legends labeling and will be non-canon, since it will be directly contradicted by the new movies and TV shows. They'll still pull anything they like from those stories to use in new works. Pre-RotJ works that still fit into the new unified universe will be managed by the new Lucasfilm Story Group along with new books etc. Any of those works can still be contradicted by the movies/TV, but the Story Group will apparently be managing all the conflicts.

[Batman]

Um-no? 'will not tell the same story told in the post-Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe' does not automatically equal ' it will be directly contradicted by the new movies and TV shows'. If and when the new content does contradict the old EU, the new content overrides it, but that has been the case ever since the alphabet canon. Nowhere in this article does anybody say the 'Legends' stuff is 'non'-canon.

[Crayz9000]

I suppose then we'll just have to wait for Chee or someone else at the Lucasfilm Story Group to clarify what the exact status of the Star Wars Legends stories is. I still suspect they'll be placed in a similar standing to Star Wars Infinities, because if they make any major structural changes in the new movies (which they're pretty much guaranteed to) it will completely destroy the established timeline of the post-RotJ Expanded Universe.

[Batman]

And other than Zahn's Thrawn stuff and Wraith Squadron I say good riddance. The vast majority of the novel EU stunk. I'm not saying they should keep the EU as canon, I'm saying nothing in that article says they aren't.

[Crayz9000]

I love semantic debates, which go around in circles because the parties can't quite agree on the meaning of a word.

Both this press release and Leland Chee's previous statement have unequivocally stated that the previous canon definition is out and that movies and TV shows are the ONLY Star Wars canon.

The only question this left is what status it granted to the EU, which for me is what they've clarified here: The parts of the EU that conflict are going to be placed into the "Legends" group, which may provide inspiration for canon but otherwise doesn't count for anything, and the rest of the Expanded Universe, which will sort of have a limbo status of "Not canon unless referenced/used/confirmed by canon, but part of continuity unless explicitly contradicted by canon."

[JME2]

And other than Zahn's Thrawn stuff and Wraith Squadron I say good riddance. The vast majority of the novel EU stunk. I'm not saying they should keep the EU as canon, I'm saying nothing in that article says they aren't.

At least keep Luceno and Stover's books in.

As to this announcement...well, I knew this was coming. I knew this was inevitable from the moment the sale was announced.

Still, I won't deny that part of it does feel like a backstab. The EU kept the franchise alive in between the films and part of me isn't happy that the post-ROTJ stories I grew up with are getting the axe.

But then again, I kinda felt the same way after Paramount abandoned the Prime Reality in 2009. It is what it is.

[Darksider]

The best thing i'm hoping for is that they keep the old EU alive under this "Legends" label and do a split continuity, like Marvel does with the 616/MCU/Ultimate timelines, but seeing as all the post ROTJ stuff in the works has been cancelled, it looks like the label is just a pathetic cash grab.

I can't say I like this decision. I know Disney isn't going to burn my books and comics and video games, but there still won't be anymore adventures with the characters I've followed since I was nine, and that does upset me a tad. Who knows, maybe the new Disney continuity will be better without so many early mistakes weighing it down, but better or worse, it's all we've got now.