A Question on the Phoenix

[Eternal_Freedom]

How did Cochrane plan to get back to Earth after his warp flight? There's no way that crate would survive re-entry. I suppose he must have had a separate command module, in which case he's abandoning his warp reactor in orbit. Which strikes me as dumb.

Does anyone know if this was ever actually answered? Or is there just speculation?

[DesertFly]

It would be simple enough to guess that his cockpit would detach and reenter, perhaps with a heat shield and parachutes like the Apollo command modules. The Warp drive could presumably be left in orbit to be retrieved and reused when he got the materials and funding together to make another flight.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's pretty much what I suspected. This came about because I watched Apollo 13 again tonight and it got me thinking. I was wondering if there was any definite answer. Of course, that begs the question of how he planned to make another flight, where he'd get another Titan-V (I think that's what it was supposed to be, it's actually a training version of a Titan-II) or equivalent launcher. Granted he'd need a smaller rocket if he's only launching his command module but still.

That brings me to another question. Who exactly was he hoping to sell the design to? Most people seemed concerned solely with survival at this point, since "most of the major cities have been destroyed, very few governments left." Strikes me as a mighty strange idea to try to market in such a world.

And as a final question, what the hell was that missile doing, fully operational (or nearly enough to be repaired by one person) in an intact silo after a nuclear war? Surely a silo like that would be a prime target, and surely the missile would have been launched? The novelisation states he used the warheads as the power source (somehow) but it's just, well, weird.

This is why I prefer the version of his first flight seen in the novel Federation, where it's the result of a long series of tests out past Neptune before the "third world war" takes place to ruin everything.

[Knife]

Why not assume that the engine was spent, burned out, and not worth retrieving? This was cutting edge, over engineered stuff sent up on an 'old' ICBM to get up to orbit. After WWIII, where as there would have been some sort of shuttle or other designs to utilize, why use an old ICBM? It's disposable? Not meant to come back?

[Knife]

Meh, went back to edit and make a more substantial post but timed out...

Of course, that begs the question of how he planned to make another flight,

You are making the assumption he made it reusable. Why cannot it be disposable?

where he'd get another Titan-V (I think that's what it was supposed to be, it's actually a training version of a Titan-II) or equivalent launcher. Granted he'd need a smaller rocket if he's only launching his command module but still.

As I understand it, there is no detailed version of WWIII in the trek cannon. It slowly changed from TOS from utter MAD scenario to a softer one in DS9 but no real timeline was ever given. Quick google fu says the Eugenics Wars were in the 1990's man, WWIII not for another 30 years in RL. Will we still have all these silo's operational in 30 years? For all we know he was using a spent silo, or an abandoned silo for his 'lab'. First Contact in the dialouge mentioned Eastern Block and Western Allies (or something close to that). When the Borg attacked the female actress (name escaping me) thought it was another group. There is obviously some sort of governments, groups at some level. Why couldn't they have scraped together a old broken, non used, missile for him to use?

That brings me to another question. Who exactly was he hoping to sell the design to? Most people seemed concerned solely with survival at this point, since "most of the major cities have been destroyed, very few governments left." Strikes me as a mighty strange idea to try to market in such a world.

Western Alliance? As opposed to the Eastern Bloc? Hell maybe to the Eastern Bloc so he could get enough money to make more and get the hell off Earth. Who knows.

And as a final question, what the hell was that missile doing, fully operational (or nearly enough to be repaired by one person) in an intact silo after a nuclear war? Surely a silo like that would be a prime target, and surely the missile would have been launched? The novelisation states he used the warheads as the power source (somehow) but it's just, well, weird.

The TOS was portraying WWIII from a 1960's view, which has changed in TNG, DS9, and so forth down the lore. We know there was a Eugenics War, general breakdown of society with riots, then WWIII in 2040 something. For all we know what ever government of the West left pulled one out of storage for Cochrane.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Those are all good points. I think is was rambling a lot when I wrote that second post. Wow, yeah, rambling.

The idea that he made the craft disposable seems a bit off, given how much time and effort he and Lilly put into it. Especially since there was no indication in either the film or the novelisation that he had told anyone else about the project, no VIP stand at the launch for instance, which suggests it was just something he did on his own (as confirmed in the novelisation). Which makes me wonder just what his plan was.

The one bit that doesn't work is the "maybe a western government pulled one out of storage." That's invalidated by the novelisation, which states that the people living there asked Cochrane, as a physicist, if he could do anything about the nuke in the silo that they were terrified of. He then proceeded to ue said nuke to power his ship. So, clearly, it was just sitting there since WWIII ended. Which makes me wonder why it wasn't fired or targeted.

[Borgholio]

So, clearly, it was just sitting there since WWIII ended. Which makes me wonder why it wasn't fired or targeted.

Nuclear war doesn't require every warhead be fired. It was probably a *limited* exchange which caused a shit-ton of damage and then there was a cease-fire.

[Eternal_Freedom]

So, clearly, it was just sitting there since WWIII ended. Which makes me wonder why it wasn't fired or targeted.

Nuclear war doesn't require every warhead be fired. It was probably a *limited* exchange which caused a shit-ton of damage and then there was a cease-fire.

That's possible, but the idea of a limited exchange is questionable given Riker's line about "most of the major cities destroyed." That doesn't sound very limited.

[Alferd Packer]

Also, apparently nuclear doctrine can be boiled down to "one flies, or they all fly." Limited exchanges most likely won't occur.

As for why this particular missile survived, my guess is that two things happened: 1) it was protected by an ABM shield of some type, and 2) the operators in the silo refused to launch and abandoned their posts. By the time the ABM shield failed or new silo operators were able to arrive, the war was over and they left it in situ.

[Batman]

Or the missile/launch systems were simply defective.

[Elheru Aran]

The Phoenix resembled strongly (warp engines aside) the early Mercury and Gemini rockets. I think it's fairly clear Cochrane was only ever planning on test-driving it in orbit and figuring that once he had proven it, he could leave it behind and whatever governments capable of financing space travel would line up to recover it for him or just help him build more. It's essentially the equivalent of some inventor putting together a new vehicle in their garage and hoping the industry will pick it up once it's test-driven.

This is really probably my main issue with First Contact's setting-- it's entirely too post-apocalyptic for the whole infrastructure to support Cochrane's warp experiment to practicably exist without much handwaving. It would have worked far better, if a little less dramatically in story terms, for it to happen a decade or two after WWIII, after the world unifies and they start building up their technology base again.

And even if you had to keep the post-apoc thing, at least show him having more infrastructure in place. Be building the Phoenix on some airbase or rocket base or something like that at least. Not some random silo in the middle of Wyoming or whatever it was.

It makes a lot more sense for Cochrane to be making his trip if they already have space travel going on regular enough of a basis that he could count on being recovered after a successful experiment...

[Dominus Atheos]

It's clearly meant to invoke the Wright Brothers, and everyone else who ever revolutionized an industry in their garage.

[Alferd Packer]

Or the missile/launch systems were simply defective.

Could be, but you still need to have an effect ABM shield in place. Nuclear silos are hardened such that a direct ground strike is necessary to take them out. You can't airburst and wipe out a cluster of silos; you need to directly hit a single silo to take out a single silo. The side effect of this is that you throw up so much dust and debris into the air that you effectively shield nearby silos; weapons targeting them will fly through the dust cloud so fast that they'll be abraded and destroyed before they can detonate.

So what winds up happening is that a single missile silo is targeted, then another one much further away is targeted. About 45 minutes later, the dust cloud from the first one has dissipated enough that you can target another silo nearby, and around you go until you run out of missiles and have turned a huge swath of Montana into a radioactive wasteland. See the FEMA Map on this page to get an idea.

So, the fact that the area around the missile silo looked fairly pristine is evidence of a working ABM shield that protected much of Montana from the worst of it. Combine that with a defective missile or a crew that refused to launch, and we have our Phoenix.

[Elheru Aran]

And then there's the fact that Zefram Cochrane, without any visible industrial apparatus, was able to restore the rocket to working order and build a warp engine... Unless missile silos come with machine shops or there was a underground factory of some sort nearby, I really can't buy it very well.

[Ahriman238]

I read the novelization for First Contact before watching the movie. I seem to remember that Lily and Cochrane spent several years (I want to say five) and sank almost all of their considerable beginning assets into the Phoenix. Also, the local community was concerned about the missile and hired Cochrane as a nuclear expert to disable the thing so it wouldn't randomly launch, get seized and launched by somebody else, or irradiate the area.

[Purple]

Perhaps the engine is reusable but not meant for reentry, as in, if you want to use it again you get another rocket and just dock with it in space?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Perhaps the engine is reusable but not meant for reentry, as in, if you want to use it again you get another rocket and just dock with it in space?

While that is entirely possible (and indeed, likely), it does lead tot he question of where Cochrane is going to get another rocket, and how he's going to manage the intercept without a collection of ground tracking stations for position fixes.

It's just...the whole situation as presented is just a little too much. "Brilliant scientist converts old nuclear missile into rudimentary starship, initiates first contact, unites the planet." Which would work a lot better if the world wasn't a fractured mess desperately trying to survive with virtually no large organisatiosn left. Hell, as Lily points out in the novelisation, she went to Montana because it's cold, as the only warm places are riddled with typhus and other diseases, or "still sizzling from the nukes."

[Purple]

While that is entirely possible (and indeed, likely), it does lead tot he question of where Cochrane is going to get another rocket, and how he's going to manage the intercept without a collection of ground tracking stations for position fixes.

It's really not that big of an issue if you ask me. Either he finds a government or organization with enough money and resources to have any interest in his invention at all, in which case they will have the resources he needs. Or he does not find one in which case the issue is moot anyway. So it's a risk he can perfectly take as a part of the design process.

[Alferd Packer]

It's just...the whole situation as presented is just a little too much. "Brilliant scientist converts old nuclear missile into rudimentary starship, initiates first contact, unites the planet." Which would work a lot better if the world wasn't a fractured mess desperately trying to survive with virtually no large organisatiosn left. Hell, as Lily points out in the novelisation, she went to Montana because it's cold, as the only warm places are riddled with typhus and other diseases, or "still sizzling from the nukes."

Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's been almost 20 years since I've read the novelization, but didn't it also say something about an Indonesian space agency that was still in operation? And that Cochrane was planning on selling this warp drive to them?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'd have to check, but I don;t recall anything like that.

I still maintain that it's just too much for one guy to do in that environment.

[biostem]

What always bugged me, (and this seems to be common in Star Trek), is the question of where are the prototypes? Where is the small scale warp drone or even some sort of fixed proof of concept? I mean, can you even activate a small warp drive if it was on the ground in some facility? And wasn't there an episode of one of the series that stated that there's no dilithium on Earth? Did it mention whether he used some other substance to control the reaction or if they found dilithium in a meteorite? I mean, heck, all the required supporting technologies seemed absent from First Contact - where'd they keep the antimatter? Did they already have artificial gravity and inertial dampener technology by the time the movie took place? It just seems that a lot of requisite technologies were absent or simply not showing the kind of impact they should of had on society...

[FaxModem1]

Maybe Cochrane and Lily raided a Chronowerx Industries warehouse that was holding future tech from the 29th century?

[Borgholio]

where'd they keep the antimatter

As I understood it, they used a fission reactor as a warp core. No antimatter and no dilithium.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC it was a anti-matter based warpcore that allowed the Enterprise (NX-01) to reach Warp 5 and it was something new that United Earth Space Command had developed for the NX-series/class.

[Eternal_Freedom]

What always bugged me, (and this seems to be common in Star Trek), is the question of where are the prototypes? Where is the small scale warp drone or even some sort of fixed proof of concept? I mean, can you even activate a small warp drive if it was on the ground in some facility? And wasn't there an episode of one of the series that stated that there's no dilithium on Earth? Did it mention whether he used some other substance to control the reaction or if they found dilithium in a meteorite? I mean, heck, all the required supporting technologies seemed absent from First Contact - where'd they keep the antimatter? Did they already have artificial gravity and inertial dampener technology by the time the movie took place? It just seems that a lot of requisite technologies were absent or simply not showing the kind of impact they should of had on society...

As I said, according tot he novel, he used the nuclear warheads as a fuel source (somehow). Oh, and that radiation poisoning Crusher mentioned? Lilly went to investigate the power source to see if ut was damaged and got hit with something like 6000 rads. Ouch.

You make good points about the prototypes though. This is why I prefer the novels Federation's backstory for Cochrane's tests. He had the backing of a powerful company, and started with small bench-mounted rigs to accelerate electrons to twice the speed of light. Then he gets up to bigger practical testbeds, but he couldn't figure out a way to pull a ship out of warp so he rigged up a nuke or something to bring it out. It travelled at around 8c IIRC. Then he built his bigger test ship for a flight to Alpha Centauri B II. Took him four months to get there.

It gave us a much more realistic timeline of how he managed it. And it explained how he wound up on that rock in the Gamma Canaris region.