GEoM deposited in other sci-fis....

[Eternal_Freedom]

Then again, given that humans, klingons, vulcans, romulans and even cardassians can apparently produce fertile hybrid offspring, he may just see the other ST races as near-humans that can be useful, liek the ratlings or ogryns.

[StarSword]

The Federation itself is not really a human polity; it just looks that way because it's cheaper NOT to put redshirts into elaborate makeup.

That excuse hasn't held water with me ever since DS9 gave rubber foreheads to easily two out of every three extras and still didn't bother to put them on most of the Starfleet crew.

[PainRack]

Its........ interesting to place the Emperor into the foundation verse.

1. He's anti pyskers because of the threat they pose from the warp. If he carry this prejudice over, that means the Seldon plan is out.
If he doesn't, well......... the Seldon plan postulates that humanity is controlled by an elite, one with empathic pyshic powers. Given the Emperor legendary roles during mankind, one can very well imagine that he endorses this entirely.

Although god knows what he think of Gaia. Or shudders........ Solaris.........


2. If he sides with the Empire............ there's some issues. The Empire technological might is fading and at this point, is technologically inferior to the Foundation. They have the might/resources but not the tools. In the Great Crusade, the Emperor helped sidestepped a lot of this by allying with the TechPriests of Mars and then seeking out DAoT techs, in particular, the STC. But here........ there's no such thing. The Empire technology is already going.....

Furthermore, the question of just how insidious the 2nd Foundation grasp needs to be answered. We KNOW they 'planned' for the Exodus to Terminus, we know they kickstarted the initial revolution that created one of the 4 kingdoms surrounding Terminus......... but we don't know how. We're just left with a blurb of Hari Seldon saying that their agents will kickstart the revolution and the Prime Speaker, at the time of the Mule, which is in the future saying that they have safeguarded, they helped manipulate the Trantor University to be safe ground and they were on Trantor so as to influence various events to proceed with the Seldon Plan.

I mean, were they involved in the recall of Riosse? Yes? No? It was a Deus ex Machina......... but the seldom plan apparently DOES already account for it. We don't know.

[Elheru Aran]

Returning to Trek for a minute. It is indisputable that the GEoM would alter the balance of power considerably whatever he decided to do, by virtue of his ability to manipulate entire populations, precognition, and technological knowledge. No, he's not as good as a Mechanicus as far as that goes-- I doubt he has perfect recall of all machinery and other technology he's ever used, but who knows, he just might-- but he will be capable of uplifting the Federation by, if nothing else, altering their mindset.

He's not very likely to roll with their "we're peaceful explorers who want to be friends with everybody" thing. It's far more probable that he would make turning the Federation into a conquering force a priority-- arming starships more heavily, switching focus from exploration to expansion, and ultimately quite probably commencing a military offense against those he perceives as enemies of humanity. He might create alliances of convenience with various alien races not aligned with the Federation (Gorn, Tholians, etc) in order to increase its military strength in the short term especially against the Dominion and the Borg.

About the only thing that could stop him would be the Q and the other super-beings, most of whom would rather happily navel-gaze or do a Watcher. The Emperor's Federation would have to actually pose a threat to their existence for them to intervene, I imagine, unless they have some sort of "let's keep peace in the universe" role going on. And as none of them bothered to intervene in, say, the Dominion War, I doubt any of them really care.

Q himself seems to have taken a personal interest in the human race but his interest is largely limited to bedeviling a few captains. He has never really done anything significant to alter the path of humanity that we've seen-- it's quite possible that 'All Good Things' was just Q straight-up fucking with Picard's mind, and if he's claimed to, well, where's the evidence? Whereas the Emperor has actually directly intervened with humanity and led them to attempted supremacy over the galaxy.

Hmm, I wonder how Q and the Emperor would come off against each other in a direct contest... the Emperor's powers are more direct and physical, but (to some degree) Q exists outside of our particular reality and has that whole 'is it magic or sufficiently advanced tech' question going on. It essentially comes down to whether the Emperor can withstand Q vanishing him with a snap of his fingers.

[Borgholio]

It essentially comes down to whether the Emperor can withstand Q vanishing him with a snap of his fingers.

The full power of Q has never been explored. They do have limits in what they can do (can't commit suicide), they can (and do) build weapons to kill each other more efficiently, and they can be fought by non-Q. Specifically, I reference when Guinan met Q on the Enterprise, she seemed able and willing to defend herself against Q.

So if we're talking a telepath as powerful as the Emperor, I'd be willing to think he could challenge even Q himself.

[Elheru Aran]

For all we know they had an awkward one-night stand a few centuries ago and she knows he's got balls she can put her knee into. It doesn't really prove much other than she was willing to stand up to him and he wasn't willing to just make her go away (which he is quite capable of with other people at least, he has no problem just teleporting people around at will). We haven't necessarily seen a upper limit to his powers... that's the problem as far as quantifying them goes.

Of course, the Emperor without the Chaos Gods to hold him back probably doesn't have much of a upper limit either...

Q's weakness, I think, is probably his curiosity about the lesser species. He doesn't necessarily seem to have precognition-- his powers seem to be more along the lines of "snap fingers, things happen", which is impressive in and of itself but Sisko still punched him without much trouble. He would likely be able to perceive that the Emperor is a very powerful being in his own right, but he might not be able to resist the temptation to investigate him rather than just banishing him to another plane of reality. This could give the Emperor a chance to hurt him, and pre-Heresy God Emperor without the Chaos Gods holding him back... probably could put quite a deal of hurt on anybody.

[Ahriman238]

Not terribly familiar with Andromeda, but he does seem to like the whole enhanced-human thing; Space Marines and Primarchs, anybody? So he might decide the Nietzscheans are his kind of people and throw in with them. Short term, Nietzscheans become more unified once they overthrow the Commonwealth; long term, he probably forges them into the basis for a stronger human Empire. If Dylan Hunt makes it back from the black hole, likely he would be offered the choice of joining the new Nietzschean Empire as his ship would be useful (last one left, right?).

If he decides to go with the Commonwealth, I honestly have no idea...

The Systems Commonwealth of Tarn-Vedra? The constitutional monarchy ruled by the purple centaur-people? Yeah, I'm sure Empy will be thrilled to kneel before his new alien masters.

The Nietzschean rebellion throws things into chaos, and chaos and anarchy and a hundred warring factions is a situation the Emperor knows and will thrive in. The biggest problem is the Andromedaverse has living stars and their avatars who may rival him in power, and the kind-of but not really ascended Paradine who have casual interstellar teleportation and time-travel powers. And the Spirit of the Abyss, but give Empy three hundred years and the Worldship will get a missile enema.

[Simon_Jester]

The Federation itself is not really a human polity; it just looks that way because it's cheaper NOT to put redshirts into elaborate makeup.

That excuse hasn't held water with me ever since DS9 gave rubber foreheads to easily two out of every three extras and still didn't bother to put them on most of the Starfleet crew.

Point.

I have one other thought about the writer/producer side of this.

On the other hand, Starfleet crew are usually also the main cast and major supporting characters of the story. Because of the way Star Trek handles characterization, if your character is an alien, then all too often it is all about the ways in which you are alien. Often, those are really the only things making your character unique- Spock would be pretty flat without his characteristically Vulcan traits, Worf likewise without his characteristically Klingon traits. I could rattle off a long list of other such 'alien' characters.

In each case, that character was pretty much the only (or at least most conspicuous) representative of their species among the protagonists. To take the prototypical example, there was by all evidence one Vulcan aboard the Enterprise- Spock.

This tends to undermine attempts to make the cast be dominated by aliens. If you accept the basic conventions of Star Trek, each alien has to be a "planet of hats" style specialist, and that specialist trait has to dominate their personality... so having multiple aliens of the same species in your cast results in having several different characters who all have the same schtick.

Which probably does a lot to explain why we didn't see more Vulcans in The Next Generation or Deep Space Nine, or half a dozen Andorians running around on the protagonists' ship as major characters in any series so far.

If it weren't for that constraint, there would probably be more aliens in Star Trek as protagonist-cast in Starfleet.

[Elheru Aran]

It does raise good questions about how human-dominated the Federation/Starfleet actually is. If it's mostly humans then the Emperor will have little need to change much of anything. If it's mostly aliens as logic would dictate (there are a lot more alien worlds than human), though, he may feel the need to start from scratch.

[Ahriman238]

"Everyone knows the Federation is little more than a 'humans only' club."

"Present company excluded, of course."

I'd say at least some people in that universe view it that way.

Of course, the vast and varied Imperium is on occasion tolerant of the more harmless xenos, as wretched slaves.

[Elheru Aran]

Are you speaking of 40K or 30K Imperium, though?

40K seems more or less tolerant; 30K is more actively xenophobic.

Granted a big part of that is the changes in the setting. 30K is strongly expansionist until the Heresy happens, so aliens need to either surrender and be oppressed or exterminated. 40K has about had it and is just trying to stay in one piece, they have better things to do than wipe out the odd alien species. 40K is also well after the Emperor is a skeletal quadrapalegic on the Golden Throne...

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the matter of how human-dominated Starfleet is, it's telling that the vast majority of flag officers we see are human. Off-hand I can recall one Vulcan from the Dominion War arc, and possibly one Andorian in the hearing scene at the end of ST IV. And that's about it.

[Borgholio]

I seem to recall that in some of the episodes of TNG and DS9, comments were made regarding the homo-centric nature of Starfleet and how only token non-humans were allowed positions of authority.

[Simon_Jester]

"Everyone knows the Federation is little more than a 'humans only' club."

"Present company excluded, of course."

I'd say at least some people in that universe view it that way.

Yes, but those are old Klingon cold-warriors; I wouldn't rely too firmly on their opinions of the Federation being accurate.

[Nephtys]

On the matter of how human-dominated Starfleet is, it's telling that the vast majority of flag officers we see are human. Off-hand I can recall one Vulcan from the Dominion War arc, and possibly one Andorian in the hearing scene at the end of ST IV. And that's about it.

Well, the STVI President was some undisclosed weird alien. Even if his office was in Paris for some reason. And I suppose you could easily mistake Vulcans or Betazoids for human.

Poor Andorians. A pity you never show up anywhere, for being one of the supposedly. central races in the Federation

[Simon_Jester]

To tell the truth, I think the Andorians were only elevated to truly central status in the wake of Enterprise about ten years back. Likewise the "Tellarites," who I would never have even heard of if it weren't for Star Trek Online. Basically, none of the earlier series bothered to introduce them as the species of a major character, so they got effectively no development up until the 2001-5 run of Enterprise

[StarSword]

I will say that making the Federation look more like the multi-species polity it's supposed to be is something Star Trek Online does better than Paramount ever did. The president of the Federation is a Saurian, the apparent C.O. of Starfleet is a Trill, the captain of the Enterprise is an Andorian, and the first Starfleet captain you meet in the KDF storyline (and promptly kill, I should note) is a Bajoran.

'Course, the player dialog options still feels like they were written for a human...

[FedRebel]

2. Star Trek, at the beginning of the TNG-era Federation

The most likely thing for him to do is start working his way into an authority position within perhaps the Federation, although it would be fun if he decided the Klingons were more his game...

Filthy pink blooded Xenos? Heresy!

his precognitive abilities could indicate to him the dangers of the Borg,

ignoring the time travel migraine, The Borg were only made aware of the Federation thanks to Q. We'd have to equate the Q to a form of Chaos God, The Emperor didn't have much foresight into the plans of the four he is familiar...so the Borg may be a surprise.

Romulan expansionists,

If the Emperor were to seize control of the Federation, Sela's schemes would likely be invalid. Vulcan would be fortified in the early years of GEoM's reign as it's a major planet in the Federal Empire...so the unification ploy would be unworkable, as far as the Klingon Civil War goes...assuming the Emperor humors the alliance...he will intervene, the Romulans had no interest in open involvement.

and the Dominion.

The Prophets are the bigger nut here, their wormhole makes the Dominion a threat.

Overall it depends on how the Prophets are equated to Chaos Gods, and how the wormhole fares.

With the aggressive Federal Empire under the GEoM's guiding hand annexing all in sight, the prophets may just keep the wormhole puckered tight and hide. If the Emperor is aware of them he may find their quirky nature a threat, and if able wipe them out, if they go...what becomes of the wormhole?

From thereupon he might decide to start building up whatever military he has to work with, possibly also making alliances with powerful non-aligned alien races if he can get them to agree to intervene.

That in mind seems GEoM would sit on the sidelines until after Wolf 359 and seize full power during the changeling scares

A question that does arise is whether he'd remain as xenophobic and human-centric as he is in the 30K verse.

Given how "human" most of the Federation's population is, Trill, Betazed's, Vulcans, etc. would be seen as Abhumans.

...Andorians and Tellarites maybe a harder sell.

Would he take the position of human supremacy,

Given the Human 'allergy' to Augments in Trek, that's going to be a hard sell for the Emperor, a century or two of subtle manipulation of the population will get the social tolerance for that philosophy.

or decide to ally with the alien empires out there for expedient reasons

No ruler would openly disregard this option, in 30-40K there were no 'freindly' races, but in Trek the Federation has an alliance with the Klingons that only a moron would throw away.

given that the Federation doesn't have that much military strength?

Federation ships are a match for dedicated warships of higher tonnage fielded by rival Empires.

Starfleet isn't weak...they're not even trying!

A policy reformation, 10-20 years at most and an Imperial Starfleet would have the most powerful ships in the Quadrant and in number.

Well, the STVI President was some undisclosed weird alien. Even if his office was in Paris for some reason.

As the presidency and the Council are civilian offices not an organizational arm of Starfleet, that doesn't count.

The Office is in Paris because Earth is the Federation's capital, my guess that specific city because the French...wait for it...surrendered at the onset of World War 3 and it's on of the few cities unscathed.

Starfleet, the Federation's space faring monopoly and military arm is Human dominated, the only instance of an Alien majority starfleet vessel was in TOS, USS Defiant NCC-1764.

...then there's the matter of every single ship name in the Starfleet registry using Earth heraldry and convention.

And I suppose you could easily mistake Vulcans or Betazoids for human.

[/quote]

..And a dozen other races that are indistinguishable from humans (no forehead putty or face paint) as seen on TOS and early TNG.

If you really want to dilute the species ratio on a Starfleet vessel, you can just say every shown extra is a different species.

[FedRebel]

Starfleet, the Federation's space faring monopoly and military arm is Human dominated, the only instance of an Alien majority starfleet vessel was in TOS, USS Defiant NCC-1764.

Ghetto Edit

Meant USS Intrepid NCC-1631, from 'Immunity Syndrome' which had a mostly Vulcan crew.

Doomed Connie's are a dime a dozen and it's been too long since I've rewatched TOS.

[StarSword]

his precognitive abilities could indicate to him the dangers of the Borg,

ignoring the time travel migraine, The Borg were only made aware of the Federation thanks to Q. We'd have to equate the Q to a form of Chaos God, The Emperor didn't have much foresight into the plans of the four he is familiar...so the Borg may be a surprise.

I was under the impression they established later in TNG that the "Q Who?"/BOBW cube was already heading towards the Federation.

Starfleet, the Federation's space faring monopoly and military arm is Human dominated, the only instance of an Alien majority starfleet vessel was in TOS, USS Defiant NCC-1764.

Ghetto Edit

Meant USS Intrepid NCC-1631, from 'Immunity Syndrome' which had a mostly Vulcan crew.

Doomed Connie's are a dime a dozen and it's been too long since I've rewatched TOS.

Wrong. See USS T'Kumbra from DS9: "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", another all-Vulcan ship (with a blatantly racist captain, I might add).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Starfleet, the Federation's space faring monopoly and military arm is Human dominated, the only instance of an Alien majority starfleet vessel was in TOS, USS Defiant NCC-1764.

Ghetto Edit

Meant USS Intrepid NCC-1631, from 'Immunity Syndrome' which had a mostly Vulcan crew.

Doomed Connie's are a dime a dozen and it's been too long since I've rewatched TOS.

"Well as you know Mr Chekov, between all the space whirpools and random encounters with god-like beings, Starfleet only has three ships left including us, and one of the others is trying to save the remaining ship from the jaws of a space whale."

[bilateralrope]

Then again, given that humans, klingons, vulcans, romulans and even cardassians can apparently produce fertile hybrid offspring, he may just see the other ST races as near-humans that can be useful, liek the ratlings or ogryns.

Even if he doesn't view them as near-human, the non-human Federation members have decided to work with humanity for the long term for mutual benefit. Has the Emperor run into any alien species like that ?

I'm not familiar with the 30k time period, so the closest I can think of that the Emperor would have encountered would be the Eldar. Who only ever ally with humans for the short term because it benefits them.

Would the Emperor be willing to tolerate non-human Federation members ?
Even if it's just while he deals with the Trek factions that are a threat to the Federation. Which would include threats little is known about, like whoever built the Doomsday machine from TOS. Or the Romulans who I'm sure would try and take advantage of any purge the Emperor tries unless they are dealt with first.

If he does tolerate them for the short term, will he make a distinction between those who prove useful in helping the Federation expand across the galaxy and those who don't when it comes time for the purges ?

[Elheru Aran]

Of the Emperor's adventures in 30K it's improbable he encountered eldar before starting on the Crusade, but we have pretty much near-zero knowledge of his activities before unifying Terra after the Age of Strife. During the Crusade he and his forces would've encountered pretty much all of them except the Tau, which I believe are definitely a post-Heresy emergence (one of the reasons they're a bit of a surprise for the Imperium when they first show up).

And if there are any alien species that have helped out humans on a regular basis, it's almost all isolated cases, generally pre-Heresy, of planets or small regional empires that built up alliances to get through the Age of Strife. These were all purged by the Crusades wherever found.

[Wing Commander MAD]

That kind of makes me want to know what all went on during the Dark Age of Technology and at the start of the Age of Strife in more detail than the tidbits we currently have. Given what we know of the time, the xenophobia/AI-phobia of the IoM is somewhat justified, though of course taken to hilarious extremes because this is 40K. I do wander what the Emperor's view of Xenos was at the height of humanity during the DAoT when they weren't an existential threat, though I imagine the Eldar were not trusted simply due to their power pre-fall and then because of the massive shitstorm they caused during their fall.

[Elheru Aran]

That kind of makes me want to know what all went on during the Dark Age of Technology and at the start of the Age of Strife in more detail than the tidbits we currently have. Given what we know of the time, the xenophobia/AI-phobia of the IoM is somewhat justified, though of course taken to hilarious extremes because this is 40K. I do wander what the Emperor's view of Xenos was at the height of humanity during the DAoT when they weren't an existential threat, though I imagine the Eldar were not trusted simply due to their power pre-fall and then because of the massive shitstorm they caused during their fall.

It's unknown how much contact humanity had with the Eldar pre-Fall. Like, seriously, totally, utterly unknown. The sum total of our knowledge about the DAoT is that "we had some cool stuff and went everywhere..." and that's it. Humanity may have had some form of non-warp FTL (perhaps some sort of engine that skims the edge of warp like the Tau use), hence their rapid expansion through the galaxy,

There is somewhat of a problem timeline-wise in that some sources peg the Fall of the Eldar around the beginning of M30. The Age of Strife started before then, M25 ish. I always had the impression that the Age of Strife began *with* the birth of Slaanesh, which would make more sense, I think...