How Wrong Were the Jedi?

[Scrib]

Jedi ARE ordinary people. Just ordinary people with telekinetic powers and such. Just because they are in touch with the Force doesn't mean their brains are wired differently. They still love, hate, like, dislike, etc... They still have favorite foods, hobbies, and individual political beliefs. Telling them to beware of hate and anger is fine...that's good advice for everybody. But telling them to avoid loving someone? Telling them to avoid the good as well as the bad? Telling them to turn off all but the most simple emotions? That's not natural. It's no surprise that the more you try to control human nature, the more likely that someone will rebel against it.

I disagree. They aren't ordinary. They are incredibly powerful beings who lead,and are sometimes led around, by what bounces between an incredibly powerful forcefield and a seemingly sentient river. They are not us and are not to be treated as us, especially since the entire franchise seems to treat the temptation of the dark side as a real, tangible thing. It's like the devil-but real. We don't have that and we're already really shitty when it comes to dealing with power and attachment. We also don't have the pressure of being the diplomats, emergency police and last-ditch soldiers and..when we're still really shitty with power.

As for Jedi rebelling against emotion:some do. Others...do their job. It's convenient to just claim that suppressing emotion leads to a backlash, but how many Masters were paralyzed like Luke and Mara in the OT? How many knights almost fell like Jaina?

On the one hand, it was Anakin's attachment to Padme (and to a lesser extent, his mother) that led to his downfall. On the other, Luke's love for his father saved the galaxy. So the movies kind of tell us two different things.

I suppose you could analyze the differences between the two to see how it goes, but I'm not up to that sort of thing right now so I though I'd leave it here for other people to ponder. There is one thing I'd like to address, though:

The difference? Luke being saved by his father was a long shot. Anakin being falling did not have the same randomness. I'm struggling to easily summarize it but I suppose the quick version is:if the Council had done everything right they wouldn't need the sort of reckless random gambit that Luke resorted to,same for Luke himself. Just because a shitty strategy works doesn't mean that it wasn't a shitty strategy.

Except that it's not Anakin-centric and it does challenge your point -- that if the Council had refused Anakin training that nothing would have happened. My argument is that there is no scenario where Anakin would not have received some form of training.

This is irrelevant to the question of whether the Jedi's rules about attachment were sensible though. Whether Anakin gets training or not, he is one Padawan, just because the Jedi were in a tough spot and let Obi-Wan train him instead of just locking him in the temple forever doesn't mean that the following failure was not because they let him get trained.

Maybe Anakin gets trained, so what? Doesn't change the fact that he was unsuitable from the start, and the Council knew this. Not suspected, knew. That was their big failure, not not accommodating his problems.

[Scrib]

Their love of the force is indicative of religious fanaticism. And there's no proof the force even exists. All you see is the Jedi and Sith doing extraordinary things and aying it's because of the force. Perhaps they just happen to be able to do those things?

I don't care about the EU. I've never read a single thing from the EU and only focus on the movies. In RotS, child soldiers were being trained by the Jedi. The Jedi, sans the kids, deserved the be wiped out. Unfortunately, the Sith weren't any better. They are horrible too.

Well, here's the thing: the EU is canon. If you want to make a wide claim about the SW galaxy that goes against every piece of fiction we have then feel free, but until Disney finish their canon reconfiguration it's canon, it's a bit silly to try to hobble the source of evidence to suit you.

I have. Point to a scene proving the existence of the force other than through actions allegedly caused by the it and through dialogue. Through the grace of God, I managed to drive home safely in winter weather. God caused me to have keen skills behind the wheel. He acted through me, much like the force acted through Anakin to destroy the Death Star in ANH. But who cares if it exists or not? They worship that shit like crazy and the result is the indoctrination and arms training of children. That is indicative of religious fanaticism that is comparable to radical Muslims and Christians. That kind of behavior is inexcusable.

The problem is that the Force exists, so nothing like our current religious fanatics. A shitty argument? Perhaps. Either way it makes your arguments about religion, that would usually be so sensible in the real world, ring false. Especially when you see the other religion.

As for the Force: when you believe in an omnipresent binding force field that contains all life here's what you need to feel:an omnipresent field that contains and binds all life. What have the Jedi felt? An omnipresent field that binds all life and occasionally interferes. The Jedi can sense the future, the thoughts of others,danger, the general milieu of the galaxy (the world becomes darker as Palpatine's plan comes into focus), the death of billions of people,people who are all connected to the Force (and a lot of these things have distinct flavors in the force for most people), they can use it to extend life or even survive death. The last one is particularly interesting. Claiming that the Force does not exist requires some semantic argument. There clearly is a sort of objective power at work here.

As for them worshipping it:again, with the imposing of your own secular morals on a world completely and utterly different from yours. Raising child Jedi I can see being a problem but again, totally different world with a totally different standing to the secular one you inhabit. Religious indoctrination seems like less of a problem in this world tbh, since their religion exists and has scientific backing.Sure, you could argue that raising kids to be something without their choice is bad, I could agree, but the religious indoctrination angle seems...weak.

[Abacus]

Maybe Anakin gets trained, so what? Doesn't change the fact that he was unsuitable from the start, and the Council knew this. Not suspected, knew. That was their big failure, not not accommodating his problems.

The Jedi Council's practices aside, a completely different issue, is that the fact Anakin gets trained is the most important part. Because he is the Chosen One. He's the strongest Force user to come about in millenia. You can't ignore that kind of potential. It's why Sidious focused on him, it's why Qui-Gon focused on him, and it's why the Council focused on him as well. His sheer power potential is what mattered and his destiny meant that he would always become a skilled Force-user whether the Council wanted it or not.

The fact that the Jedi trained him at all is not the issue nor the problem. The problem is that through a series of events, some orchestrated by Darth Sidious, some through the dogmatic view of the Jedi Order, and some out of happenstance and the personal failure of Anakin himself -- we get the end result: Darth Vader and the death of the Jedi Order (at that time). It's not just any one thing - it's a combination of events, emotions, machinations and failures that leads to Anakin's fall.

To say that it was solely the result of the Jedi Council's rules or bending thereof that led to his fall, would be a grave misunderstanding of Anakin's full story.

[JLTucker]

It really is unfortunate that I have to sift through a ton of fiction books to argue my point. It makes it inconvenient for anyone who only cares about the movies. I'll retract my argument.

[Abacus]

Their love of the force is indicative of religious fanaticism. And there's no proof the force even exists. All you see is the Jedi and Sith doing extraordinary things and aying it's because of the force. Perhaps they just happen to be able to do those things?

Are Buddhist monks that choose to live monastic lives in the mountains meditating and praying religious fanatics? No. They're simply followers of their particular creed and teachings. The Jedi Order is composed of singular beings that have a strong talent for manipulating the Force and the Force manipulating them more strongly than others, they have a creed and teachings -- but they do not launch crusades or ardently try forcing others to believe in any specific point of view. They. are. not. fanatics. (Or religious for that matter -- more like spiritual, in the Wicca sense.)

Also, it is certainly not a case of them "just happening to be able to do things." Why? Because its different people, different species, from across an entire galaxy that are all developing this talent independently of any others. If it were a case of "people just being able to do things" then the Force would only be able to be used by a single species or sub-group within a species. But that's not the case.

[Scrib]

It really is unfortunate that I have to sift through a ton of fiction books to argue my point. It makes it inconvenient for anyone who only cares about the movies. I'll retract my argument.

You don't. If you'll check you'lll see that all of my examples are taken from the films, I just have a problem with the principle. If I use an EU example, I will most likely make enough of a reference to it that someone who didn't read Legacy of the Force can make the logical leaps necessary. I've never read anything involving Bastila and I can make my way through the discussion.

But if you wish to retract it...so be it. A shame, I was quite curious to see how this played out.

[JLTucker]

But if you wish to retract it...so be it. A shame, I was quite curious to see how this played out.

Let's play it out. The existence of midichlorians suggests to me that being a Jedi is genetic, not because of an omnipotent and omniscient force at work. All of the examples Borgholio mentioned suggest to me that these people were born with those gifts, not that something else was at work.

[Scrib]

But if you wish to retract it...so be it. A shame, I was quite curious to see how this played out.

Let's play it out. The existence of midichlorians suggests to me that being a Jedi is genetic, not because of an omnipotent and omniscient force at work. All of the examples Borgholio mentioned suggest to me that these people were born with those gifts, not that something else was at work.

Being a Jedi is partly genetic, some people are better at using the Force than others.The conservative line is that the genetic bit is the ability to sense and utilise the Force. The midichlorians are what facilitate this connection, they do not outright create the telekinetic powers that Jedi use. There is clearly a common force (though this of course doesn't mean it is God, active and with agency)-see: Yoda sensing Anakin's murder of the Sandpeople and the Jedi from planets away.

And as for the Force being omnipotent and omniscient...there's a reason why I picked omnipresent. How active it is...is complicated. This, unfortunately (for me anyway) works for your point.

[RogueIce]

In RotS, child soldiers were being trained by the Jedi.

Where did you get that from? The kid who tried to escape during Order 66 and was gunned down in front of Bail Organa? There's nothing to say he was in any way a child soldier. For all we know he picked up that lightsaber from a dead Master in a desperate attempt to escape his impending murder. Sure he apparently had some skill with deflecting blaster bolts (though he was shot down pretty quick, despite the element of surprise being on his side unlike all the other Jedi who we saw killed), but that just means he had at least some basic lightsaber training; it says absolutely nothing about whether or not the Order would have ever sent him to the front lines.

Even if he had a Padawan braid (and maybe he did) that says nothing. The only other Padawans the movies show us were Anakin and Obi-wan. Obi-wan was an adult in Episode I, and by the time we saw Anakin doing any dangerous field work in Episode II he was also an adult. The movies are completely mum about what he was doing in those intervening ten years, though IIRC he was sporting a braid at the end of Ep1 as well (he was a special circumstance, however). For all we know, younger Padawans are not sent off on assignments with their Masters that could be dangerous (let alone fighting a war, which only began at the very end of Ep2 and which we basically see the last few days of in Ep3) and might spend most of their time doing one-on-one training and studies with their Master, maybe going out to sit and silently observe stuff like diplomatic negotiations. Anything involving danger (such as protecting a Senator under threat of assassination) may only be assigned to Master/Padawan duos who are older; the only example of such is Obi-wan and Anakin and as I said before, Anakin was an adult by then.

So yeah, by movies alone I don't see where you're getting evidence of child soldiers from.

[Scrib]

In RotS, child soldiers were being trained by the Jedi.

Where did you get that from? The kid who tried to escape during Order 66 and was gunned down in front of Bail Organa? There's nothing to say he was in any way a child soldier. For all we know he picked up that lightsaber from a dead Master in a desperate attempt to escape his impending murder. Sure he apparently had some skill with deflecting blaster bolts (though he was shot down pretty quick, despite the element of surprise being on his side unlike all the other Jedi who we saw killed), but that just means he had at least some basic lightsaber training; it says absolutely nothing about whether or not the Order would have ever sent him to the front lines.

Even if he had a Padawan braid (and maybe he did) that says nothing. The only other Padawans the movies show us were Anakin and Obi-wan. Obi-wan was an adult in Episode I, and by the time we saw Anakin doing any dangerous field work in Episode II he was also an adult. The movies are completely mum about what he was doing in those intervening ten years, though IIRC he was sporting a braid at the end of Ep1 as well (he was a special circumstance, however). For all we know, younger Padawans are not sent off on assignments with their Masters that could be dangerous (let alone fighting a war, which only began at the very end of Ep2 and which we basically see the last few days of in Ep3) and might spend most of their time doing one-on-one training and studies with their Master, maybe going out to sit and silently observe stuff like diplomatic negotiations. Anything involving danger (such as protecting a Senator under threat of assassination) may only be assigned to Master/Padawan duos who are older; the only example of such is Obi-wan and Anakin and as I said before, Anakin was an adult by then.

So yeah, by movies alone I don't see where you're getting evidence of child soldiers from.

I think he's just talking about the general M.O. of the Jedi, which is to take kids and train them for whatever mission the Council and the Republic thinks is important. It is worth noting that the Clone Wars are an extraordinary situation but the general point probably still stands if you're more concerned with choice than danger (not that Jedi aren't often in danger of course, whether they choose to be or not)

[JLTucker]

In RotS, child soldiers were being trained by the Jedi.

Where did you get that from?

Is't there a scene with the padawans training with lightsabres and those automated moving targets?


Child soldiers. Period. You're teaching them, at a young age after being stripped from their families, how to use weaponry. Sure, we don't know if they all end up becoming Jedi or fighting, but that's still some immoral shit going on in the name of the Force. It's the same kind of argument Potterheads use to justify the Defense Against the Dark Arts classes. That very class proves Hogwarts is a military institution that instills fear upon its students that some dark wizard will come out and catch 'em all Pokemon. The fear is put on Anakin as well (OMG THE SITH), and that WAS raising a child to be a soldier.

Is it safe to say, given the EU, that the children in the screenshot above have the potential to be Padawans and be subservient to their "master"?

I'll respond to your post tomorrow, Scrib. I'm dead tired.

[FaxModem1]

Those are actually Younglings, , not padawans, and that's the equivalent of a children's Karate class. Those are 'training lightsabers', which can't hurt anyone, but give the child a sense of what they would be wielding if they become padawans and used a real lightsaber.

Keep in mind, the ones who wash out because no master will take them as a padawan go to Bandomeer or some other farm world and use the force to grow foods for impoverished worlds.

Hardly the cannon fodder of some holy warring religion.

[Scrib]

In RotS, child soldiers were being trained by the Jedi.

Where did you get that from?

Is't there a scene with the padawans training with lightsabres and those automated moving targets?

Child soldiers. Period. You're teaching them, at a young age after being stripped from their families, how to use weaponry. Sure, we don't know if they all end up becoming Jedi or fighting, but that's still some immoral shit going on in the name of the Force. It's the same kind of argument Potterheads use to justify the Defense Against the Dark Arts classes. That very class proves Hogwarts is a military institution that instills fear upon its students that some dark wizard will come out and catch 'em all Pokemon.

And how to sense the Force, because danger, no matter how ephemeral , is both a motivator and something that stands out in the Force. It teaches them to trust that instinct that they can't quite place in a situation where they're inclined to listen.

Also: I'm sorry, but how does DADA in Harry Potter mean that Hogwarts is a military institution? They are teaching children how to deal with the various dangers that arise in a magical society where anyone that hates you can cause you incredible pain in a way that cannot be pre-emptively regulated against, only punished, because the wizards' power cannot be separated from them like muggle weapons can be classed differently from their toasters. And there's the issue of magical animals and the like. Considering the sort of creatures we saw Harry deal with what is so strange about teaching children the right antidote for spider venom or the way to deal with the Bogart (sp?) a creature that would otherwise be very dangerous, if only mentally, to a child. Children need to learn this stuff, especially since they seem to go on to be apprentices or straight to their jobs right after.

And again, the Jedi are in a completely different situation in the PT. The mission they were on at the beginning of TPM? Negotiating with the Trade Federation? That would be their job, except without the murderous droids being thrown at them because of a Sith plot. The need for the Jedi to become soldiers (well, officers iirc) came with the big war(s)).

Is it safe to say, given the EU, that the children in the screenshot above have the potential to be Padawans and be subservient to their "master"?

Yup. Well, they're meant to learn from the Jedi Master. He might technically be "their" Master but it's more about the rank imo.

And I suppose you have a problem with the Master-apprentice relationship too?

The fear is put on Anakin as well (OMG THE SITH), and that WAS raising a child to be a soldier.

Uh...dude. The Sith were not only real, they were an existential threat to both democracy and the Jedi. They basically codified sociopathy as the center of their religious cult and...they just lost 50% of their force, AND Anakin has ridiculous potential and was already in the public eye AND was already filled with entanglements and fear,two things that make it easier for one to fall to the dark side (guess who would know? The ancient enemy of the practitioners of dark side acts). That seems like literally the most reasonable fear in all the prequels.

Can totally see the argument about teaching children anything at such a young age.. But the other stuff? Not really.

[Arawn Fenn]

Is't there a scene with the padawans training with lightsabres and those automated moving targets?

Actually, that's from AOTC.

much like the force acted through Anakin to destroy the Death Star in ANH.

Hee hee

[biostem]

IMO, the Jedi were Shaolin Monks *in space*.

I mean, just go back and watch some of the various "Shaolin ___" movies from the 70's, and you'll see men of various ages training - yes thy'd learn how to fight, but it was part of the development of their "self" - they'd also learn philosophy, how to grow food, and have other responsibilities around the temple.

My issue w/ Star Wars and the Jedi mainly stems from the fact that a group that has such empathy and sensing abilities were apparently not only unable to properly counsel and treat Anakin's disorders, but were willing to let him out on his own, when he clearly needed many, many more sessions w/ a shrink...

[Havok]

They were religious fanatics and raised child soldiers. Of course they were horrible people.

This is such bullshit.
There is a tangible, REAL thing called the Force that these people can control and wield. It is not some adherence to a book written by crazy people with no substantiated evidence or proof. They are born with weaponry built into them. There is no fanaticism.

The Jedi are more like the X-Men, where if you don't have someone like Professor X take them in and train them, you get someone like Magneto taking them in and training them.

And no matter how many times you and others scream "CHILD SOLDIERS!" you never actually see children fighting other than when they are disobeying or being attacked at the temple. Even when Qui-Gon takes Anakin as his padawan at 9, it is all very specific "watch, listen, learn but stay in that cockpit!"

And yes, you see little kids using training lightsabers. You see little kids in football pads, practicing kendo, even learning to shoot, everywhere. it does not make them soldiers. We also have no idea what the societal norms are in the Star Wars universe. Teenagers could very well be fully capable decision makers in many societies.

[Flagg]

Tucker: "I'm not always full of shit, but when I am it's a metric ton."

[Havok]

Add to the conversation or shut up Flagg.

I'm also surprised at the mild racism in this thread, assuming that all Jedi are human with human traits and ways of thinking. Outside of Mace, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin, pretty much every other Jedi is a different species from human.

[Flagg]

Add to the conversation or shut up Flagg.

Yessash massah!

Jedism is pretty much a philosophy not a religion because unlike god, the force exists. Sithism is an opposing philosophy. The Sith seem to be trained from the start to be ruthless killing machines and the weak are just culled from the herd, while the Jedi can be fucking librarians. Are Jedi children trained to be soldiers? Yes, the way medieval knights were, because it takes a very long fucking time to learn how to properly use a sword. But since we never see Jedi children on the front lines in combat, well...

[tezunegari]

But since we never see Jedi children on the front lines in combat, well...

Star Wars: The Clone Wars...

Ahsoka Tano. (The Clone Wars movie / Pilot to the series)
Send into a combat zone to be apprenticed to Anakin. Used as a combatant to destroy an enemy shield emitter.

The Nautolian Padawan (Episode "Monsters")
Thrown into a Temple door by Savage and killed.

Bariss Offee. (Season Two. "The Factory)
Send to fight on Geonosis to find and destroy a super-tank factory.

While these examples are in their teens, they still would be considered Child Soldiers in our world.

[Flagg]

But since we never see Jedi children on the front lines in combat, well...

Star Wars: The Clone Wars...

Ahsoka Tano. (The Clone Wars movie / Pilot to the series)
Send into a combat zone to be apprenticed to Anakin. Used as a combatant to destroy an enemy shield emitter.

The Nautolian Padawan (Episode "Monsters")
Thrown into a Temple door by Savage and killed.

Bariss Offee. (Season Two. "The Factory)
Send to fight on Geonosis to find and destroy a super-tank factory.

While these examples are in their teens, they still would be considered Child Soldiers in our world.

How old were they?

[Lord Revan]

Ahsoka Tato was in her mid teens IIRC, dunno about the Nautolan though IIRC it was implied that it wasn't a frontline post.

as for Bariss Offee, unless they de-aged her in the TV series she's adult, young but still an adult, about 18-22 if I had to guess, as she still said to be younger then Anakin though not by much.

[Flagg]

So basically we know they are adults or don't know their ages, therefore no evidence that the Jedi used child soldiers.

[tezunegari]

So basically we know they are adults or don't know their ages, therefore no evidence that the Jedi used child soldiers.

Bariss Offee was born in 40 BBY, so she was either 17 or 18 during the first Battle of Geonosis (AOTC) in 22 BBY. (according to wookiepedia)

Knox, the unnamed Padawan has no given birthdate or age, only a date of death...

So, as both these two have no more data towards their age... I retract them from my list of Jedi Children in combat.

Those two pretty much came as a first thought besides Ahsoka.

Ahsoka on the other hand was born in 36 BBY. According to the TCW novelization and the The Essential Reader's Companion

The Battle of Christophsis, were Ahsoka was introduced, happened in 22 BBY.

So she was 13-14 at the time. Main character and child soldier unless adulthood for Togruta is 13-14, though considering the physical difference between her and her adult force vision (Season 3, Episode 15 "Overlords") and the differences between her and Jedi Master Shaak Ti (also a Togruta) I disagree with that notion.

---

edit: source for Ahsokas birth year.

[Flagg]

Well reading wookiepedia Ashoka seemed like a special case, but I'd consider a 13 or 14 year old a child soldier. However I think this is a major exception rather than a rule since she's pretty young for a Padawan.