My trek nation . possible or wank

[blazze9]

I was trying to come up with a trek faction for my daydreaming purposes while bored at work lol. I wanted something human like with a connection to earth but not really human. then I remember the augmans .
song had a friend who believe as he do about the augmans , who also stole a bunch of embryos and raised them on a separate planet . unlike song he was never caught by star fleet so he had time to figure out the fix that song was trying to put into the new embryos. After he herd about what happened with songs augmans/starfleet/ and the klingons he hijacked a vulcan ship stole about 3000 embryos from another cold station and head into deep space . After they arrived at their new planet 20 years later they decided to increase their numbers as fast as possible in order insure their survival , so they reproduce the conventional way and also grow other in incubators which become a normal way of life for them .( they raised them in like massive day care centers . the year is 2375 during the dominion war they live just beyond the edge of explored space . they have a population of 15 billion , fed level technology, (they have spies in starfleet) control about 30 systems . have a fleet of about 400 prometheus size ships (built only for war so they are a little bit more powerful ) 800 defiant size frigates and about 200 intrepid size science ships. so how possible is that scenario or they could never reach 15 billion in the 215 years . what's your two cents ? am working on my Grammer and spelling sorry in advance .

[Darth Tanner]

Total wank.

Also its Singh... and he didn't get caught by Star Fleet, he was deposed by the Eugenics wars and fled in a non warp capable ship long before first contact. Unless you mean Soong but he build Data.

Androids would make more sense for this with crazy AI androids.

Also a fleet far more powerful than anything the Federation has put together with the latest and most advanced ships is total wank. Also just having 'spies' does not mean you can out produce the people your spying on... it takes industry and resources.

Controlling 30 star systems is total wank too, why has the Federation or Klingson not expanded in ths direction for these hundreds of years?

Also such population growth statistics would be unachievable. You'd need new borns making babies too within their first year of life.

[blazze9]

yea i ment soong ,He was in prison during enterprise . I imagine they would get pretty far in 20 years.

[Borgholio]

Going from a population of a few thousand to 15 billion and building a star fleet larger than some of the civilizations that border the Federation is simply not possible in 200 years with anything like reasonable numbers. There's a rational limit on how many children a population can take care of while still managing other needs for civilization to progress. Assuming each female gives birth to 4 children, and assuming 100% survival rate, and assuming each child reproduces at age 18, you're only looking at a population of a little over 6 million people in 200 years. You can't have mass daycare centers with hundreds of cloned infants...how will they all get fed? Who will take care of them?

No I'm sorry, your idea is not possible in any way.

[Lord Revan]

also IIRC few thousand people is too small a population to remain viable, due to too much inbreeding.

also if you want to throw morality and proper mental development out of the metaphorical window you could probably lower the minimum breeding age to about 15-16 years but not much lower then that without risk of loosing too many mothers and the their child due the stress of birth.

as for using clones, well those clones still need to fed and so on as Borgholio mentioned, you can't just ignore the logistics when they cause problems.

[blazze9]

yea that's true , it was not well though out lol th for your input

[Prometheus Unbound]

I wrote a really cool post on this yesterday but the forum ate it.

I cant remember the maths, but to get 15 billion in 220 years, it was something like breeding them like cattle from the age of 14.

Assuming 2 parents had 4 kids over their lives, you're talking about 3-6 million in 220 years.

[blazze9]

with those numbers I machine they could server easily tho. I wonder how the federation would react when it finds them ?

[Borgholio]

What machine? The augments did not have much in the way of machinery. They would have to do most of the farming, construction, mining, and other chores by hand or with simple machines only for quite some time. They wouldn't have the time or resources to breed that quickly.

[blazze9]

Well they would have a ship and they seem pretty smart , a few humans from Earth survived in the delta quadrant and have a population of 300 thousand (from voyager ) so even if they are only a few million I still think they could have a technology level comparable to starfleet . yea

[Borgholio]

Well they would have a ship

Meaningless. A ship doesn't contain all they would need for a self-sustaining colony. If they used it to raid nearby worlds for equipment and supplies, they would eventually be hunted down as pirates. Which, if you remember, is EXACTLY what the Klingons were doing in the episode. No way to avoid attracting attention when you're a goddamn pirate.

they seem pretty smart

Smart does not equal wise. In the episode, they were willing and ready to try to kill Dr. Soong out of simple jealousy when he was the one man they would have needed the most. Also, simply being smart doesn't give you the ability to ignore the simple mathematical fact that *There are not enough people to form a viable colony in the time frame you specified*

a few humans from Earth survived in the delta quadrant and have a population of 300 thousand

Wrong. The original human stock was abducted by aliens in the 1930's and bred or cloned as slave labor by their captors. In 400 years, they managed to grow a population of a bit over 100,000. So you just proved a perfect example of how long it REALLY takes to grow a large population with a small initial sample. And this is with the added help of an advanced alien species deliberately farming humans as fast as possible.

so even if they are only a few million I still think they could have a technology level comparable to starfleet

It took the combined effort of dozens of worlds and trillions of people over 200 years to go from Enterprise-era tech to TNG-era tech, and build a full starfleet on top of it. There is no fucking way a couple million people (no matter how smart) can do the same thing.

I'm sorry but your story is a Trekkie wet dream. It is not even remotely possible.

[Lord Revan]

no matter how smart you are you just can't buy something that costs 10€ with just 1€, nor can you do the logistical equilevant of that either.

a colony needs food, water, medical supplies, spare parts for any machines they use and that's just to survive. Replicators aren't magic "push button stuff appears" boxes, they need at the very least power to function and it's generally accepted that they need raw materials as well.

Since it would be major wank to assume that they'd could get their hands on a NX or another SF vessel and still be able to "drop under the radar" so to speak, a civilian starship which in ST are rather small compared to SF ones could carry only so much supplies and bare in mind that even Starfleet vessels have to make "pit stops" to resupply.

then there's the other side of logistics to consider as well aka waste disposal and recycling, shit happens, literally and someone has to get rid of it and no machine is gonna last of forever at some point it's gonna break up so badly that it cannot be repaired anymore. Oh and 100% recycling is a pipedream you just can't get to 100%

And as your colony grows it's logistical needs grow too only faster as you cannot assume all your resources are close by so you need to add the needs of transportation there.

also that's assuming that you maintain a steady growth rate and there's no major unrest in the colony.

[Batman]

Heck if replicators did create matter out of energy the colony would arguably have even more problems. Instead of one kilogram of suitable raw materials, they'd now need to provide 25 million megawatt-hours of energy for every kilogram of replicated material.

[Lord Revan]

details aside the problems really boil down to ignoring or underestimating the logistics needed for a successful colony.

[Batman]

Absolutely. I was just pointing out how incredibly worse their logistics problems would get in that subset of the scenario.

[blazze9]

Do let's say there is 4 million of them , what technology level do you guys think they would have ?

[Lord Revan]

too many variables to say anything really, depending on the conditions of the initial colony site they might even regress in technological "level" especially if you don't have engineers or other specialists with you.

logistics for a colony especially a totally self-sufficient are incredibly complex you can't you just if they got this many people what's the tech level like.

[Borgholio]

From what I saw during the episode, Soong was the only one who had any real engineering knowledge...and the leader of the augments wanted him dead. Without him, they'd probably degenerate into a pack of thugs.

[Lord Revan]

From what I saw during the episode, Soong was the only one who had any real engineering knowledge...and the leader of the augments wanted him dead. Without him, they'd probably degenerate into a pack of thugs.

and just as things aren't bad enough as they were, I assumed they'd use a human ship so the onboard database would be written in English, but when I reread the OP it implies they'd hijack a Vulcan ship meaning all the text would in scrip they can't read and no matter how smart you are it'll take time to figure out even the basics of a text you're not familiar with. Saying that they could do it easily is like saying you could give me Japanese or Chinese textbook (FYI:I can't read either of those) and told to read it, I could.

[Lord Revan]

the thing we must remember that no matter how intelligent the colonists are this won't allow them access to information they don't have and to date I can't remember a single augment with any sort of engineering training, apart from "John Harrison" in Star Trek Into Darkness and he was trained by Starfleet.

(oh and for god's sake don't use his true name in the open it's still kind of a spoiler).

Also IIRC the augments in the ENT episode weren't exactly the type of people who could manage in successful colony.

[Borgholio]

Also IIRC the augments in the ENT episode weren't exactly the type of people who could manage in successful colony.

They were basically teenagers with the typical teenager attitudes, only with enhanced physical strength. Horrible combination.

[Simon_Jester]

the thing we must remember that no matter how intelligent the colonists are this won't allow them access to information they don't have and to date I can't remember a single augment with any sort of engineering training, apart from "John Harrison" in Star Trek Into Darkness and he was trained by Starfleet.

Harrison was Starfleet-trained. But if you look at the episode where Augments were first introduced, with Khan as the antagonist, he was able to figure out Enterprise and the ship's systems by speed-reading technical manuals, then stage a takeover of the ship- and figure out single-handedly how to sabotage and destroy it.

No Starfleet training there.

[Lord Revan]

the thing we must remember that no matter how intelligent the colonists are this won't allow them access to information they don't have and to date I can't remember a single augment with any sort of engineering training, apart from "John Harrison" in Star Trek Into Darkness and he was trained by Starfleet.

Harrison was Starfleet-trained. But if you look at the episode where Augments were first introduced, with Khan as the antagonist, he was able to figure out Enterprise and the ship's systems by speed-reading technical manuals, then stage a takeover of the ship- and figure out single-handedly how to sabotage and destroy it.

No Starfleet training there.

true but that still doesn't mean he could design and build a starship even if given the materials and labor force to do so.

[Tribble]

Speaking of Trek factions, according to Q in "Q-Who" the Borg were "just a preview of things to come" if the Federation continued their exploration of that area of space. We never encounter said civilizations, but they must be pretty terrible if Q views the Borg as just a warmup. And he wasn't referring to 8472 as they were on the opposite side of the Galaxy. I'm trying to think of what they would be like. Any thoughts?

[Borgholio]

I'm not sure the "preview" he mentioned referred simply to "dangerous". It could mean unusual and unexplainable.