Eframepilot wrote:And it is impossible to believe that a being with such powers would leave himself vulnerable to simple physical assault.
Yet it happened. You lose. Again.
Going back to the Original Trek series: The Organians, whom were being invaded by the Klingons. Does anyone else remember that episode and what the Organian race actually were? Why did they let the Klingons invade, if they had enough power to shut down every weapon of war, as far away as Earth and Kronos (sp), iirc?
The Organians were shown as a species advanced to the point where they were only physical if they chose to be. The Klingons in later episodes called them "the Lightbulbs". Now, since the Trek universe is shown to be full of alien life, why can't there be more than one species that advances to the point of 'magic' (see Arthur C Clarke). Why can't that race be the Q Continuum?
((Hoping she survives her first entry into the STvsSW))
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
So we're speculating that the Q are maybe like the Strangers in Dark City... they have huge machines buried under the "city" that allow them to focus and enhance their TK powers.
If that's the case, some of it is innate and some of it is just really really advanced (and secret) technology.
I guess I hadn't seen that it HAD. It may or may not be correct, but it could still be a fair analogy.
I recently watched the episode in question as well (thought it was silly... though at least they didn't try to shill the idea that humanity is genetically peaceful and individualistic too hard). More of B&B dumbing down and weakening major villians.
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:That speculation has already been shot down, Kurgan. See the last few pages.
I certainly haven't seen any of this proof of the tech theory being shot down. I've seen plenty against the Cartesian Holodeck Theory, but not beyond that. Or are you saying your insane ramblings about how Sisko must be able to damage superbeings because he knows when a Prophet is around is somehow applicable?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before you understand it?
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:No, dumbass, here's what I'm saying:
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before you understand it?
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
The problem with this explanation is that there is no reason to believe it is true other than a preference for magical supertech over inherent abilities. Consider the Force. What if there was a computer in hyperspace or some extradimensional realm that could contact only certain minds in the galaxy (say, those with a high concentration of midichlorians)? This super-machine could simulate the powers of the Jedi by moving objects and providing energy in response to mental contacts; it also could send projections of the future to simulate precognition. All phenomena attributed to the Force would be caused by this hidden machine. And because technology is a simpler explanation than "some mystical energy field that permeates everything," we should assume that the Force is a hoax perpetrated by an invisible all-powerful machine. But we don't do this. We accept the Force as part of suspension of disbelief. Thus considering Amanda Rogers' abilities that were inherent from birth, we accept the simpler explanation that they are inherent and not the result of totally conjectural magic super-duper-duper-technology.
Eframepilot wrote:The problem with this explanation is that there is no reason to believe it is true other than a preference for magical supertech over inherent abilities. Consider the Force. What if there was a computer in hyperspace or some extradimensional realm that could contact only certain minds in the galaxy (say, those with a high concentration of midichlorians)?
Since no one ever tries to claim that the Jedi/Sith are omnipotent, this is nothing but a red herring. You didn't even TRY to answer the Q/technology issue in this post other to say, "we can't be sure." And you think thats a good argument?
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before you understand it?
That in NO WAY contradicts what I said about Dark City (were you calling me a dumbass or the other fellow? either way I think you're out of line).
In Dark City the Strangers have INHERENT TK abilities, yet they also use technology in order to ehnance and amplify their powers. The Q (we could speculate) may be similar in that they use highly advanced technology to amplify innate super powers.
That doesn't mean they're omnipotent, or that if you take away the technology that they're just ordinary mortals. Obviously, it's possible that it could be a combination of the two.
One other thing, some people have brought up that Q (Delancy Q anyway) was "afraid" because humanity would one day surpase Q in power. However, wasn't that based on one line of dialouge by Picard ("you're afraid of us... afraid we'll one day surpass you!") which was basically just a rhetorical jab against the endless put-downs he was getting thrown at him.
I haven't seen any Q eps beyond Q and the Grey, so perhaps I'm wrong about this. It seems Q was interested in humanity like a pet, and because he felt human individuality was something he could use to revitalize the stagnant society of the Continuum (though he wrongly assumes that human ideology is genetic, Janeway tells him). He never answers Picard's retort (which could have many potential interpretations).
When I say beyond "Q and the Grey" I mean chronologically... ie: in Voyager. I haven't seen DS9 seasons 6 or 7 either, so if there are other Q eps that elaborate on this point, etc...
SirNitram wrote:Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
The problem with this explanation is that there is no reason to believe it is true other than a preference for magical supertech over inherent abilities. Consider the Force. What if there was a computer in hyperspace or some extradimensional realm that could contact only certain minds in the galaxy (say, those with a high concentration of midichlorians)? This super-machine could simulate the powers of the Jedi by moving objects and providing energy in response to mental contacts; it also could send projections of the future to simulate precognition. All phenomena attributed to the Force would be caused by this hidden machine. And because technology is a simpler explanation than "some mystical energy field that permeates everything," we should assume that the Force is a hoax perpetrated by an invisible all-powerful machine. But we don't do this. We accept the Force as part of suspension of disbelief. Thus considering Amanda Rogers' abilities that were inherent from birth, we accept the simpler explanation that they are inherent and not the result of totally conjectural magic super-duper-duper-technology.
Do you hate Occam's Razor because it cut you as a child?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:No, dumbass, here's what I'm saying:
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before you understand it?
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Burden of proof? You're the one claiming there's technology involved, so prove it.
Eframepilot wrote:The problem with this explanation is that there is no reason to believe it is true other than a preference for magical supertech over inherent abilities. Consider the Force. What if there was a computer in hyperspace or some extradimensional realm that could contact only certain minds in the galaxy (say, those with a high concentration of midichlorians)?
Since no one ever tries to claim that the Jedi/Sith are omnipotent, this is nothing but a red herring. You didn't even TRY to answer the Q/technology issue in this post other to say, "we can't be sure." And you think thats a good argument?
No, no one ever has tried to claim the Jedi or Sith are omnipotent. But it is accepted that the Jedi and Sith exhibit abilities far beyond that of normal humans. On this basis, the analogy holds.
What we're dealing with here is a massive case of wishful thinking on the part of those who would like to believe that the Q do what they do with technology (or aided by technology) when we've never seen any evidence of technology being used. Granted, some of what they do can be duplicated by technology, but that does not prove that they use technology to do it.
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:No, dumbass, here's what I'm saying:
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before you understand it?
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Burden of proof? You're the one claiming there's technology involved, so prove it.
Nitram? Know when to quit.
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:No, dumbass, here's what I'm saying:
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before you understand it?
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Burden of proof? You're the one claiming there's technology involved, so prove it.
Occam's Razor, coupled with the fact we see technology being responsible for part of their abilities(Q and the Grey), and the fact all their lightshows can be explained by beefing up existing, established technology(A sufficiently powerful/refined Transporter to fling the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant, for example). See? That would make their abilities a known. Claiming supernatural powers is, by definition of Occam's Razor, an unknown. Should I draw this in crayon for you?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Burden of proof? You're the one claiming there's technology involved, so prove it.
Nitram? Know when to quit.
Yes, dear..
[mutter]They shouldn't be able to cast Reflect on their walls of Ignorance..[/mutter]
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
It hasn't been proven beyond all doubt that they rely on technology for the bulk of their powers (that I know of)... however, the episode with the young woman Q (forget the name sorry.. from TNG) and Q & the Grey from Voyager seem to indicate that their powers are both innate and that they do use technology at least on occasion (the "weapons" that the voyager crew could also pick up and use.. not the line "they're using OUR weapons").
To what degree do they rely on technology? That's what we're speculating about (or should be). It could be a lot, or it could only be a tiny bit.
That would tie into questions such as... could you cripple or threaten the Q by stealing their technology? Could their technology ever be duplicated by another non-Q species and used against them? etc.
Now the fact that certain of their (we assume innate) powers can be duplicated by technology doesn't outright prove that their powers are in fact fake (ie: just smoke and mirrors via technology), but it does cast suspicion on them, if you want to argue that. ; )
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Burden of proof? You're the one claiming there's technology involved, so prove it.
Occam's Razor, coupled with the fact we see technology being responsible for part of their abilities(Q and the Grey),
All right, suppose I grant that those muskets we saw really were muskets, and not just "props" for the Voyager personnel's benefit. (Of course, IIRC, at one point it was stated that the entire Q Continuum was being "translated/dumbed down" so that the Voyager people could understand it.) The Q were using the muskets against each other, not humans. Thus, in order for Han Solo or Chewbacca to kill a Q, they would need access to that level of weaponry.
...and the fact all their lightshows can be explained by beefing up existing, established technology(A sufficiently powerful/refined Transporter to fling the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant, for example). See? That would make their abilities a known.
Still unproven, and further, ultimately irrelevant. The method they use to fling a starship ~40,000 LY at a whim is immaterial. The fact that they can do it still makes them people you don't want to fuck with.
Claiming supernatural powers is, by definition of Occam's Razor, an unknown. Should I draw this in crayon for you?
Claiming innate natural (not supernatural) abilities which have been demonstrated time and time again is not an unknown.
Again I remind you of the following analogy: Human technology can duplicate the natural color-change ability of the chameleon. This does not prove that chameleons use advanced versions of human technology to achieve color-change.
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Burden of proof? You're the one claiming there's technology involved, so prove it.
Occam's Razor, coupled with the fact we see technology being responsible for part of their abilities(Q and the Grey),
All right, suppose I grant that those muskets we saw really were muskets, and not just "props" for the Voyager personnel's benefit. (Of course, IIRC, at one point it was stated that the entire Q Continuum was being "translated/dumbed down" so that the Voyager people could understand it.) The Q were using the muskets against each other, not humans. Thus, in order for Han Solo or Chewbacca to kill a Q, they would need access to that level of weaponry.
...and the fact all their lightshows can be explained by beefing up existing, established technology(A sufficiently powerful/refined Transporter to fling the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant, for example). See? That would make their abilities a known.
Still unproven, and further, ultimately irrelevant. The method they use to fling a starship ~40,000 LY at a whim is immaterial. The fact that they can do it still makes them people you don't want to fuck with.
Claiming supernatural powers is, by definition of Occam's Razor, an unknown. Should I draw this in crayon for you?
Claiming innate natural (not supernatural) abilities which have been demonstrated time and time again is not an unknown.
Again I remind you of the following analogy: Human technology can duplicate the natural color-change ability of the chameleon. This does not prove that chameleons use advanced versions of human technology to achieve color-change.
Burden of proof? You're the one claiming there's technology involved, so prove it.
Occam's Razor, coupled with the fact we see technology being responsible for part of their abilities(Q and the Grey),
All right, suppose I grant that those muskets we saw really were muskets, and not just "props" for the Voyager personnel's benefit. (Of course, IIRC, at one point it was stated that the entire Q Continuum was being "translated/dumbed down" so that the Voyager people could understand it.) The Q were using the muskets against each other, not humans. Thus, in order for Han Solo or Chewbacca to kill a Q, they would need access to that level of weaponry.
Wow, you are stupid, aren't you? I never claimed they were real muskets. I claimed they were technology, which they clearly are.
Of course, yes, Han Solo needs access to that amount of energy output to deal with a Q(Editor's Note: Here, Raoul will prove he is stupid by claiming an energy increase of some magnitude can induce supernovae.). It may be within the limits of a blaster. It cannot be too much higher, due to U/c and recoil issues...
...and the fact all their lightshows can be explained by beefing up existing, established technology(A sufficiently powerful/refined Transporter to fling the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant, for example). See? That would make their abilities a known.
Still unproven, and further, ultimately irrelevant. The method they use to fling a starship ~40,000 LY at a whim is immaterial. The fact that they can do it still makes them people you don't want to fuck with.
It helps to read threads with your eyes, not your ass. I have never said they aren't powerful. I just said they use technology.
Claiming supernatural powers is, by definition of Occam's Razor, an unknown. Should I draw this in crayon for you?
Claiming innate natural (not supernatural) abilities which have been demonstrated time and time again is not an unknown.
It is if you can't provide a mechanism. Is your uneducated brain unaware that this is exactly the sort of thing Occam was talking about?
Again I remind you of the following analogy: Human technology can duplicate the natural color-change ability of the chameleon. This does not prove that chameleons use advanced versions of human technology to achieve color-change.
And a sufficiently big transporters will move a ship 40,000 LY in the blink of an eye, and you'll claim it's magic.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:No, dumbass, here's what I'm saying:
A member of this species manifested the species' known abilities before she ever encountered her ancestral society. Thus, no technology ever changed hands. She never had access to any "technology", only to the species biology through her parents. How many different ways to I have to explain this very basic concept before you understand it?
Or the technology reacted to her presense(Thus explaining why it didn't manifest before that time in her life). When dealing with tech so high as to be magic, this falls like a deck of cards.
Wait, let me see if I've got this right -- you're saying that this Q girl, who never met another of her own species, never saw her native Continuum, probably didn't even know what the Q were, knew right away how to use Q "technology" as it was in her presence -- still without having any idea it was there? Or are you saying that the technology did these things for her without her knowing it? Wouldn't that make the technology clairvoyant? Sentient machines aren't new in sci-fi, Nitram, but I think you've just suggested psychic machines... that's new.
As I said, in the episode we learn that Amanda Rogers has been dealing with these abilities all her life. Nothing "reacted to her presence". Stop the wishful thinking, already.
LadyTevar wrote:Going back to the Original Trek series: The Organians, whom were being invaded by the Klingons. Does anyone else remember that episode and what the Organian race actually were? Why did they let the Klingons invade, if they had enough power to shut down every weapon of war, as far away as Earth and Kronos (sp), iirc?
Because they wanted to give the humans and Klingons a way out of their coming war. When they proved to be too adversarial, the Organians decided to take more direct action (interfering with weapons).
The Organians were shown as a species advanced to the point where they were only physical if they chose to be. The Klingons in later episodes called them "the Lightbulbs". Now, since the Trek universe is shown to be full of alien life, why can't there be more than one species that advances to the point of 'magic' (see Arthur C Clarke). Why can't that race be the Q Continuum?
It's possible, but there is no evidence to that. The Organians never weilded their powers while away from their planet, while the Q pop up almost anywhere.
