How Wrong Were the Jedi?

[Scrib]

That would imply that the Force itself has sides, which while I know even Lucas itself has said it does, is ludicrous as it implies true sentience and that it recognizes rage and knows to give access to certain abilities or powers based on the individual requesting access, no matter the species or how their brains or physiology work.

This doesn't imply sentience, just the slightly less ridiculous notion that certain emotions create certain effects in the Force, like certain chemicals create certain reactions. No need for sentience, though I suppose it may help dualism and have other wide-reaching metaphysical consequences. But then, this thing can show you the future. It's clearly fucking weird .

[Borgholio]

I've always felt that a "realistic" interpretation of the Force is more along the lines of how you use it, rather than what you use. For instance, Force Choke. Vader uses it for intimidation and submission, thus it is the Dark Side. Luke used it in ROTJ to get past Jabba's guards without killing them. He didn't torture them or kill them, just a quick choke to push them aside, thus it is not the Dark Side.

As far as lightning goes, we only see Sith use it. But suppose you just cast a wave of lightning to use as an area-affect tazer? Not to kill or inflict pain, but to stun without causing permanent harm. Is it still the Dark Side? I'm not so sure. Indeed in the EU there's supposedly a Jedi-version of lightning called Electric Judgement.

[biostem]

I've always felt that a "realistic" interpretation of the Force is more along the lines of how you use it, rather than what you use. For instance, Force Choke. Vader uses it for intimidation and submission, thus it is the Dark Side. Luke used it in ROTJ to get past Jabba's guards without killing them. He didn't torture them or kill them, just a quick choke to push them aside, thus it is not the Dark Side.

As far as lightning goes, we only see Sith use it. But suppose you just cast a wave of lightning to use as an area-affect tazer? Not to kill or inflict pain, but to stun without causing permanent harm. Is it still the Dark Side? I'm not so sure. Indeed in the EU there's supposedly a Jedi-version of lightning called Electric Judgement.

I could be wrong, but I don't know if you can use force lightning to harmlessly and painlessly stun enemies. Similarly, while I suppose you could use force choke to knock someone out without crushing their windpipe, you are still depriving them of air until they pass out - not a pleasant experience. Contrast that with Obi-wan, who use the force to distract or trick enemies without having to actually engage or harm them in any way. That's an important distinction, IMO.

I also don't think that the force is necessarily good or bad - but the kinds of emotions that are tied to different manifestations of the force are fairly strongly in contrast to one-another.

[Havok]

Yeah Force lightning won't painlessly stun enemies, but as I have gone at lengths explaining and breaking down, FL is merely a torture device and isn't lethal except in doses far far far greater than we see on screen. A Jedi could certainly use it to stun a group, although it will cause pain. I'm pretty sure deflecting blaster bolts back into the person that shot them at you causes a lot of pain too though.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Funnily enough, the "what matters is how you use it" view is precisely what is expressed in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, wherein we see you have access to both neutral, "Light" and "Dark" powers, and how much of each you use helps push you in certain directions. We see plenty of Jedi using Force Lightning, and one or two even use Force Choke.

I suspect the absence of it in the films is an old Jedi decision that "only Darksiders use such powers" and a resulting tradition. After all, the Order doesn't exactly encourage thinking for yourself about such things.

Hell, since they haven't encountered a true Sith for a thousand years or so, they may simply have forgotten about force lightning.

[Scrib]

Or it's just a mix of things. It's a bit like guns (or we can go further and think of a dangerous yet common tool) and a particularly horrible chemical weapon. One can be used for multiple things, not all of them bad (like TK) and the other is inherently damaging, hurtful and cruel. In one case how you use it matters because it can be used for "good", as defined by the Jedi. In the second case it's almost inherently dark side.

[FaxModem1]

A better example might be a chainsaw, where they are very useful in cutting trees and other objects, but used on a person, its rather malicious. So, if for instance, you had never seen a chainsaw before and you see in a film Jason wielding a chainsaw and cutting people up, you might assume chainsaws are some evil and sadistic weapon and not something a good person could use.

[Arawn Fenn]

Funnily enough, the "what matters is how you use it" view is precisely what is expressed in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, wherein we see you have access to both neutral, "Light" and "Dark" powers, and how much of each you use helps push you in certain directions.

Actually, the only way to go dark in Jedi Academy is to kill Rosh. Luke may gently admonish you during level-up if you're getting more dark side powers than light side ones, but other than that there's no real consequence of using the dark side ones. You can just go around blasting lightning all day and it makes no difference at all in terms of the game. But it should be emphasized that gameplay mechanics do not necessarily reflect canon and are more about "fun factor".

I mean is someone going to sit here and tell me Yoda couldn't use lightning to start his Jedi scooter because that will make him evil? Fuck no. What makes him evil is using it to fry your nuts off. Or getting angry and throwing you out the window. But if he is happy as a clam and decides to use it to pop his popcorn, forever will it not dominate his destiny.

Dark side powers such as lightning aren't defined as darksided in an after-the-fact fashion determined by outcome. They are dark side powers because they require use of the dark side in the first place in order to make them happen. And the dark side is inherently corruptive in nature regardless of good intentions, much like Tolkien's One Ring, hence Yoda's warning in TESB about the dark path. The Jedi abhor intentional use of the dark side and this is why they are never seen using lightning on screen.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Funnily enough, the "what matters is how you use it" view is precisely what is expressed in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, wherein we see you have access to both neutral, "Light" and "Dark" powers, and how much of each you use helps push you in certain directions.

Actually, the only way to go dark in Jedi Academy is to kill Rosh. Luke may gently admonish you during level-up if you're getting more dark side powers than light side ones, but other than that there's no real consequence of using the dark side ones. You can just go around blasting lightning all day and it makes no difference at all in terms of the game. But it should be emphasized that gameplay mechanics do not necessarily reflect canon and are more about "fun factor".

Good point about the killing Rosh part, I'd forgotten that. Still, the fact that it's one of the Jedi's senior Masters espousing that philosophy is significant I think.

[Arawn Fenn]

( Ugh. Now I can't remember if it was Kyle or Luke. The web says "Kyle and Luke". Same difference. )

Anyway, you're feebly cautioned about the possibility of falling just for your Force power selection having a higher percentage of dark side powers, but the game doesn't keep track of how you use them. If Jedi Academy were truly espousing the "what matters is how you use it" philosophy, you'd think that all powers would be classified as neutral. But the game does not do that. Some powers are unambiguously classified as dark side powers. Not that there's really the opportunity to do anything with them other than harming opponents, though.

[StarSword]

Aren't game mechanics explicitly considered non-canon?

Luke speaks in favor of the "it's your intent, not the exact power" idea in The Courtship of Princess Leia after one of the witches (Teneniel IIRC; been a while since I read any of my EU collection other than Scoundrels) wonders if it's the other way around (because the Nightsisters are shown using Force lightning).

[Arawn Fenn]

Of course, the same book refers to external light and dark sides of the Force in several places. (I know that's not the same issue, but they're often bedfellows.)

[Scrib]

Aren't game mechanics explicitly considered non-canon?

Luke speaks in favor of the "it's your intent, not the exact power" idea in The Courtship of Princess Leia after one of the witches (Teneniel IIRC; been a while since I read any of my EU collection other than Scoundrels) wonders if it's the other way around (because the Nightsisters are shown using Force lightning).

Except he later rejects this theory after implementing it after Vergere introduced it. It's possible that Luke,as the last member of a defunct Order, is doing a fair bit of bumbling.

[Arawn Fenn]

Except he later rejects this theory

I was going to mention that but I wasn't sure about which book it happened in.

[Scrib]

Except he later rejects this theory

I was going to mention that but I wasn't sure about which book it happened in.

I think it was in the Dark Nest trilogy, right after NJO. But yeah, considering that he spent that entire series paralyzed over something the Old Jedi would have done gladly had it come to that, I think we might consider the fact that Luke is feeling his way through it all.

[Arawn Fenn]

Also, Lucas refers to dark side powers in the commentary track for AOTC and indicates that lightning identifies a darksider when it appears, which is something it would not necessarily do if it was in fact a neutral power.

[Darth Yoshi]

Is that because lightning requires tapping the Dark Side, or because we only see Sith Lords use it? I mean, we only see Sith Lords use red lightsabers, but that doesn't mean red is an evil color.

But yeah, as much as I like the idea "intent is what matters", the fact that the biggest proponent of it was Vergere, who turned out to be Sith, makes it pretty dodgy.

[Arawn Fenn]

Is that because lightning requires tapping the Dark Side, or because we only see Sith Lords use it?

The former. If lightning didn't require tapping into the dark side, it wouldn't identify a darksider when used. It's called a "dark side power" for the same reason.

But yeah, as much as I like the idea "intent is what matters", the fact that the biggest proponent of it was Vergere, who turned out to be Sith, makes it pretty dodgy.

The EU author in question didn't believe in the sides of the Force, but Lucas does, and I think Lucas' concept of the Force should take precedence, because he invented the Force in the first place.

[Eternal_Freedom]

According to something in the EU, the Sith used red lightsabers because they couldn't get to where the Jedi find natural crystals, so they use synthetic ones instead, and they all turn up red.

[StarSword]

According to something in the EU, the Sith used red lightsabers because they couldn't get to where the Jedi find natural crystals, so they use synthetic ones instead, and they all turn up red.

Yeah. Jaina Solo did the same thing in KJA's Lightsabers, synthesizing her lightsaber crystal in a reactor (because she wanted to have fabricated every part of her weapon herself as a point of pride or something), and it came out red that time, too. Took her a little while to get used to it, IIRC.

[Havok]

I don't subscribe to author intent because whatever his intent may have been, he doesn't show "dark side powers" he shows powers that all Jedi and Sith have and use equally. Only lightning is unique. And all that says to me is Sith power, not "Dark Side" power.

It's just silly to think the Force has two separate power sets to draw on based on using their "happy key" or "anger key".

[RogueIce]

I think it depends on how Force powers work. It seems to be they need to at least visualize or otherwise channel that energy to do something. Hence why they close their eyes and lift their arms to levitate stuff, thrust out an arm to do a Force push, etc.

In that context, I can see Force Lightning being a "Dark Side" power if the way to generate it is to focus anger, hatred, aggression or whatever it takes at an opponent, and the Force transforms that into lightning bolts from your fingertips. Since the anger, hate and aggression is of the Dark Side, well, if you have to draw upon those emotions in order to generate the lightning, I think it qualifies as a Dark Side power.

I would say such instances are probably relatively rare, though. For instance, a Force Choke is really just applied telekinesis and the difference between snapping a subordinate's neck because they failed you for the last time versus applying the equivalent of a chokehold to disable (not kill) somebody who presents a threat to you or others defines whether or not you're "drawing on the Dark Side" rather than the power itself. "Force Choke" being a Dark Side power in games is pure mechanics in that case.

Just my take on it, anyway.

[Metahive]

I think it depends on how Force powers work. It seems to be they need to at least visualize or otherwise channel that energy to do something. Hence why they close their eyes and lift their arms to levitate stuff, thrust out an arm to do a Force push, etc.

Ah, but when Vader throws shit at Luke on Bespin he does so without waving his hands around and while we can't see if his eyes are closed, they're enough instances where the Force is used with open eyes, as when Palpatine throws senate seats at Yoda. Except for maybe Force Lightning where you need to point and channel the energy somewhere, I guess the gestures are just for the benefit of the user or for theatrical grandeur but not actually necessary.

[Arawn Fenn]

he doesn't show "dark side powers" he shows powers that all Jedi and Sith have and use equally. Only lightning is unique.

Don't forget Force ghosting. ( Not to mention the fact that the Jedi apparently can't Save People From Death ).

And all that says to me is Sith power, not "Dark Side" power.

Same thing: the reason Jedi don't use such powers is because they are created by the dark side.

It's just silly to think the Force has two separate power sets

It's not silly to think the Force has two sides.

Ah, but when Vader throws shit at Luke on Bespin he does so without waving his hands around

Also, Luke levitates Threepio while unable to move his hands around.

[Darth Yoshi]

The former. If lightning didn't require tapping into the dark side, it wouldn't identify a darksider when used. It's called a "dark side power" for the same reason.

Missing my point there. EU aside (since this is regarding film commentary), we don't actually know that lightning requires the Dark Side, because we're not given any insight into characters' heads. If Sith Lords are the only people to use lightning, then of course using lightning would indicate that you're dark, because that would make you Sith and Sith are dark. Hence the comparison to red lightsabers.