Well, I don't want to do your job for you, but here's how I would respond:
the Empire's armed forces were twice as large as they were at the time of ANH. I think you'll find that a 200% increase in that department does make much of a difference when you're talking about how a pan-galactic state would respond to an invasion.
The Empire had 25,000 SDs.
Yes it did. It also had support ships, and numerous other ships that were of approximately the same size and firepower as an ISD.
This is the number I have been considering and unless you're going to say the Empire had 50,000 ISDs then there's no difference.
Oh, and doubling is a 100% increase... sparky.
Great red-herrings (or strawmen).
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As for Yavin, considering they gave an x-wing to some farmboy still wet behind the ears who'd just showed up, I think it's fair to say there wasn't a glut of experienced pilots on the rebel side.
At that time, at the Yavin base, who were available to fly. If you'll read the EU, you'll know that some of their pilots were incapable of flying at that particular time because they were ill, and that Biggs Darklighter vouched for Luke's flying ability.
Oh, and about Yavin.
If it was indeed only one tie squadron as you say, then it becomes quite obvious that they chewed up the Y-wings and got their **** handed to them by the X-wings.
Not really. The X-Wings outnumbered them, but the TIEs were still able to give them trouble.
Six x-wings survived mixing it up with the ties to make trench runs, atleast one of the others was killed by the towers.
In other words, the TIE fighters were able to knock out more than one Rebel starfighter for each TIE that was destroyed, despite being outnumbered. That's a considerable advantage for the TIE fighters.
And of course if you refer to rebel assault and other games as cannon, more then 2 X-wings and a Y-wing survived... and there was a pair of A-wings there too.
They aren't cannon. You lose. In fact, they're not even very high on the list of official information.
Yeah, the tie fighters didn't do so hot against the X-wings.
They were outnumbered, yet still performed fairly capably. Concession accepted.
Keep in mind that TIE fighters are faster and more manoeuvrable than X-wings, that TIE fighters have a much higher rate of fire than X-wings, and that TIE fighters can fire off-axis. The films show them having more or less the same survival rate as the rebels' starfighters.
And the films are the only Cannon?
No. Films. Scripts. Novelizations. Radio Dramas. Those are canonical. Below that, we have the EU.
Actually I seem to remember at Endor where the Ties severely outnumbered the rebeled and yet the rebs survived just fine.
In a battle in which they lacked any capital ship support, and the Rebels did have capital ship support.
And then of course there's that whole no shields thing. You see the problem there is that if you get hit, you're screwed, and the way to avoid getting hit is to manuever, which, by the way, makes it pretty hard to hit anything.
I see, so it's okay to ignore the observed performance of starfighters on both sides in favor of your preconceived ideas about comparative starfighter performance.
Now I will grant that if the main character was in a tie fighter he could undoubtedly destroy a dozen skips singlehandidly... but the regular characters would be slaughtered like a pre-Njo characterization.
Cite your evidence, moron. That's not what we're seeing from the books.
And what makes you think that the Empire doesn't have other ways of destroying enemy-held worlds? You do know what a Base Delta Zero operation is, don't you
Base delta Zero=Orbital bombardment, kthxbye.
Prove that an Imperial Star Destroyer would be destroyed light minutes away from its target.
Um, lets see, Remnant, those SD's didn't seem to be doing to well. I could be mistaken also, but the ships in Vector Prime didn't seem to be doing too hot.
In other words, you ignore the tactical situations in which the ships in both encounters were involved in favor of your preconceived notions of the comparative abilities of the ships involved in the actions. The Imperial starships fared quite well against the YV, despite placing themselves in poor tactical situations. Why don't you read
Destiny's Way, in which a single Star Destroyer, with a small group of mixed support ships made up primarily of light freighters, managed to decimate an entire YV squadron by itself (a substantial fraction of the entire YV fleet).
And of course I believe somewhere in the NJO is that throw away line about 17 ISD being destroyed in one battle. I think around the battle of Ithor...
In other words, the loss of 17 ISD's, regardless of the numerical or tactical problems faced in a battle, proves that the ships are inferior. Where do you get this stuff?
In anycase, even after 20 odd years of fighting they got swepped away by a completely new form or fighting. What makes you think that an Empire that lost militarily to a numerically inferior and(as you seem to believe) technologically inferior foe would do so well agaisnt a foe with completely new weapons and ships and what is porbably close to a parity of numbers?
1. The Empire did not lose the Rebels. It was destroyed in the infighting following the death of the Emperor and Vader.
2. The YV are numerically superior to the NR in the early days (ie. When the YV won all their victories). With the NR's shipyards finally producing, and with the YV incapable of replacing their losses quickly, the tide has shifted back in favor of the NR. The Empire could not single-handedly defeat the YV because their numbers have been decimated--they are down to a handful of worlds and a couple hundred capital ships--but their entry into the war is a substantial blow to the YV.
3. Contrary to your belief, coral skippers are NOT as powerful as NR starfighters. With parity of numbers, and without their Yammosks, they lose BADLY to the NR. Look at
Destiny's Way. Only with the Yammosks are the skips capable of out-fighting the NR's starfighters. Once they were knocked out of the battle, the NR's fighters (despite being outnumbered from their early losses) quickly took charge of the battle and DESTROYED the YV battle group with minimal losses for the NR. That shows clearly that the YV's only real advantage is their war-coordinator, and that their material is actually considerably weaker than that of the NR.
Gosh, it's a good thing the Empire doesn't have any long-range strategic missiles, isn't it? It sure is a good thing that the Empire doesn't have any massive warships with shields more than capable of deflecting enemy fire, right?
What are you talking about? The Empire had these things. It still has starships that can deflect enemy fire. Imperial ships have stood up spectacularly well against NR ships in the past, as well as many of their other enemies. You simply ignore these incidents in favor of your preconceived notions of how powerful the various ships are in comparison with one another.
When you consider that a frickin' Victory class Star Destroyer in orbit over Dathomir was able to cripple a YV CRUISER in a single volley, you realize that an ISD represents a substantial advantage over comparatively-sized YV ships. Remember that the VCSD is both smaller and FAR less advanced than ISD Mark II's and Mark III's.
Does it? That would explain why they keep trying to orbit worlds before hammering them to glass eh? Oh and it would probably explain why they never seem to use them.
Feel free to back up your claim or back away.
In
Rebel Dream, a ship fires from outside the Coruscant system to strike a starship orbitting Coruscant. This shows the range of SW capital ships. The fact that it is easier to BDZ a planet when a starship is in orbit and can thus more quickly circle the world to complete the operation should be obvious to anyone with a modicrum of intelligence. BDZ operations have to happen quickly. If you have to wait for the planet to rotate along its axis in order to complete the operation, it will take longer. If you can actually park yourself in orbit and THEN begin the operation, it will occur in a MUCH more timely and efficient manner than if you are firing from any distance--particularly since some planets take much longer than one standard day to rotate along their axes.
And once again the Torpedo sphere you mention appears to be an orbital weapon, and furthermore the Empire had six of them.
All of this about torpedo spheres seems to be a red-herring, however since you claim my colleague brought it up I will choose to respond to it.
What are you talking about? Torpedo spheres were assigned to every Imperial bombard squadron. Read
The Imperial Source Book.
And they don't seem very well adapted to hold off a cloud of skips, so they'd need to be protected by a massive amount of other ships.
Really, WTF are you smoking. A torpedo sphere is not supposed to be able to protect itself. It was NEVER designed to combat an enemy fleet by itself. It was designed for the EXPRESS purpose of knocking out the shields of a target planet (ref.
Encyclopedia). The defense of such a ship is a SECONDARY function, and is unnecessary in lieu of the fact that the ship was designed to operate as part of a fleet which could protect it from other starships. You're basically saying that a starship must be able to EXCEED its designed specifications in order to be effective. It's like saying that the space shuttle is ineffective because it cannot deploy thermonuclear weapons, or withstand the impact of most SAM's. It's true, but the thing was never designed to operate in the manner in which you envision. Once again your preconceived notion that all starships must be able to operate more or less interchangeably affects your judgement.
Oh and, how fast can it move? I mean if it's as slow as, say, the death Star, the fleet and it would have to take a pretty heavy pounding before they could use their weapons.
The DS moved VERY rapidly, moron. In fact, it accelerated at several hundred g's while it moved around Yavin, and moved from the Outer Rim to the Core world of Alderaan in several hours, and then BACK to the Mid-Rim within a day. Once again, your preconceived ideas of "slow" and "fast" are affecting your judgement. Further, a torpedo sphere's speed is SECONDARY to its designed goal of knocking down a planetary shield. Obviously it must have SOME mobility, but beyond a point mobility for such a ship is worthless. It's designed to knock out a planetary shield, and as long as it can do that then it's fulfilling its objective. What part of this concept is beyond your comprehension?
Oh, and since the Torpedo's of a Sphere are specially designed to go after shields, it would actually be less effective then a SD at laying waste to a planet.
Well, not necessarily. It's ability to knock out the shields of a planet shows that it has a firepower vastly in excess of an ISD. However, its use of missiles as opposed to turbolasers to achieve the desired effect means that it is probably less economical to use it to BDZ a planet. Moreover, its lower sublight speed probably means that it would take longer to achieve the desired effect.
BTW, I like how you now admit that the torpedo sphere is designed to knock out the shields of a planet (and designed EXPRESSLY for that purpose), yet criticize it elsewhere for its inability to accomplish OTHER tasks only marginally related to its design specifications, in an attempt to show that the ship is not effective.
Why did you even bother bringing it up?
I don't know why my colleague brought it up. I similarly have no idea why you chose to respond to it in such a laughable manner as to claim that a ship must be able to achieve all functions that any other ship could conceivably have in order to be effective. I suppose you subscribe to the theory that it is better to have two starships that can do anything than three starships that are each good at specific tasks. You may sometimes be right, however the advantages that three ships offer over two ships creates a spectacular imbalance in the situation, and usually indicates that the three specialized starships will be a vastly superior investment, all other things being equal.
Do you really think the Yuuzhan Vong could handle a fleet 5,000 times larger than the New Republic's?
This has the look and feel of a strawman. No, of course the YV could not handle a fleet 5000 times the size of the NR's.
And a thousand times as dispersed? And equipped with the most useless snubfighter ever? And, lets not forget, under the command of a mad man?
1. As I have shown, the TIE fighter maintains comparable performance to that of the NR's starfighters of the era. Its more advanced designs, such as the Chiss clawcraft, the TIE Defender, and even the TIE Interceptor have BADLY outperformed comparable NR fighters time and again. You have ignored this.
2. The Imperial fleet would not be "a thousand times more dispersed." I have NO idea where you got this notion of its fleet concentration. Remember that the NR's largest problem early in the war was its unwillingness to concentrate its fleets in an organized operation. Remember that up until
Star by Star and
Destiny's Way, the NR was still SEVERELY fragmented, with various planets retaining fleets of warships to protect them, even though they were in little immediate danger. The Imperial fleet would have responded more quickly to the problem, due to their highly centralized government which involves a very few leaders in a position to make decisions of spectacular importance. The NR's indecisiveness cost it the early war.
Here's another question, why don't you think the Emperor would have been happy yo let the Vong wipe out the rim where the Rebellion had it's largest support?
Erm... what? The YV were clearly a threat to him. He didn't even let the Ssi-Ruuk operate their TINY forces along the Galactic Rim, even though those would have been wiping out the rim where the Rebellion had its largest support. And actually, the Emperor seemed far more worried about the Core Worlds that were supporting the Rebellion (ie. Alderaan) than he was about the Rim, where they couldn't do much to his power base.
Oh he'd never do something that stupid, he's brilliant, and would never tell the rebels the location of his secret weapon so he could destroy them all at once or invite the hero into his lair where, because of paternal instincts, his top subordinate would rebel and inconveniently discorporate him.
The Emperor is not infallible, however he's also not stupid. When faced with a threat to his power, he dealt with it. Even Nom Anor agreed that the Empire would have been able to crush the YV, and that it was primarily due to the NR's inefficient government that the YV were winning the war. When faced with an external threat, totalitarian governments respond VERY quickly, and usually in as overwhelming a force as they can muster.
Ooops.
If the NR had put in everything they had the minute the YV attacked, they would have won.
Sorry, you're wrong.
If the NR had thrown their forces at the YV, they would have won. That's what EVERYONE agrees would have happened.
The NR did not know how to fight the vong at that time and frankly the time it would have taken to get all their chickens in place wouldn't have helped. The vong would have swept them out of the way.
How? The YV needed a beach-head, first. The problem also wasn't gathering sufficient forces. Star Destroyers and other large ships can travel the length of the SW Galaxy in a matter of little more than a week, and certainly the main fleets could have been gathered in the theater within a month. The YV would have been denied entry into the Galaxy, and smashed by the NR's forces. Leia saw it. Luke understood it. Nom Anor saw it. Cal Omas saw it. That is what would have happened. That is what SHOULD have happened, had the NR been able to move its forces more quickly. The problem was that the infighting created by the NR's inefficient and corrupt government prevented a rapid response, and ultimately allowed the YV to establish themselves to the point where they could not be evicted.
