Ukraine War Thread

[Thanas]

Actually, there have been reports of far-right groups beating, and, occasionally, killing left wing activists, so this may not be as far fetched as you think.

In Maidan the protestors are not shooting each other. We have video footage of police shooting into the crowd. So, no.

[Irbis]

The German ARD Correspondent reports that apparently paratroopers have been dispatched to Kiev.

Did ARD produced even a single photo, much less video, of these 'paratroopers' anywhere near protests, or do they act like extremist propaganda tube yet again?

Meanwhile, according to Kiew police, they are not shooting at protestors. The Protestors are shooting at each other.

Did you not look at your own streams? These have videos of "protestors" spraying guns blindly in police's general direction. What's so far-fetched in the idea they could hit each other?

Had the victims been all civilians, that could have been government lie, but half of the killed were police forces. That's not the kind of casualty ratio you get after one sided violence.

Hell, haven't there even been rumours/reports of some of the Berkut guys going into hospitals and abducting any leftist protestors being treated there?

There had been, since the beginning, but I don't recall any proof for this. How hard it would be for opposition to make a trap for such squad with western reporters invited to show police brutality? Someone correct me if I am wrong and there was a proof, though, I didn't watched every Majdan news recently.

[loomer]

The deployment of the paratroopers is confirmed at this point, Irbis. They're just there to guard supply dumps, at least officially, however.

[K. A. Pital]

In Maidan the protestors are not shooting each other. We have video footage of police shooting into the crowd. So, no.

Union activists who tried to demonstrate with the protestors (not against them!) were beaten by the nationalists. So, yes.

Of course, regardless of the reactionaries making up the core battle troops, the protest itself is driven by the fact that 20 years of Ukrainian independence effectively destroyed the national economy, the government is totally corrupt and is no longer having any value to its own people. Besides, nationalists are quite popular in the West and among the younger Eastern population.

In the West being a PR deputy is something akin to a black mark, so the "Regions" party basically ceased to exist there and pro-government propagandists who travel to the West are detained, their propaganda material is burned and they themselves questioned on whether they're "regionals", and if they are, they're held as "prisoners". No real way out from the current crisis, Ukraine will go the way of Yugoslavia sooner than later IMHO.

Post-Soviet state = failed state, end of story.

[Irbis]

The deployment of the paratroopers is confirmed at this point, Irbis. They're just there to guard supply dumps, at least officially, however.

Supply dumps, yes, like the few already looted. However, quite a few websites and TV stations 'reporting' it omits that bit, making it seem like evil Janukowych deployed them directly to Maidan to gun down the protestants.

[K. A. Pital]

Supply dumps in the West were all looted; Lviv is guarded by cannons.

[Thanas]

The deployment of the paratroopers is confirmed at this point, Irbis. They're just there to guard supply dumps, at least officially, however.

Supply dumps, yes, like the few already looted. However, quite a few websites and TV stations 'reporting' it omits that bit, making it seem like evil Janukowych deployed them directly to Maidan to gun down the protestants.

If you had read the twitter feed I linked to you'd note the tweet does mention the ukrainian explanations.

In Maidan the protestors are not shooting each other. We have video footage of police shooting into the crowd. So, no.

Union activists who tried to demonstrate with the protestors (not against them!) were beaten by the nationalists. So, yes.

Oh right. We are going to believe the police now of a sudden when on German TV they had footage of police firing into the crowd. No way does the police explanation hold any water.

[K. A. Pital]

In Maidan the protestors are not shooting each other. We have video footage of police shooting into the crowd. So, no.

Union activists who tried to demonstrate with the protestors (not against them!) were beaten by the nationalists. So, yes.

Oh right. We are going to believe the police now of a sudden when on German TV they had footage of police firing into the crowd. No way does the police explanation hold any water.

That information does not come from the police. It comes from the Ukrainian left-wing activists who tried to join the protest, not from people who oppose it. That was way before the current events even happened, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. People from the "Right Sector", no matter how sympathetic their uprising seems, are nationalists whose views are borderline fascistic. Also, I'm sure you have a good explanation for this:

Now, I'm not saying the rebellion is unjustified, it is very well justified. But trying to pretend this guys aren't armed to the teeth with all the loot from depots in the West, which were simply abandoned by the Western regions' police that - in its own words! - "joined the rebellious people", is just stupid.

Not every act of armed insurrection is bad, but admitting that the country's going Yugo-way is a lot more productive than just covering ears and saying "lalala peaceful protest lalala".

[Thanas]

Stas, I feel you are misunderstanding me. The police are trying to hide the fact that they are shooting at maidan protestors by the claim that the protestors at maidan are shooting each other.

That is what I am talking about. I am not talking about protestors shooting or not shooting people outside maidan. What I am claiming is that the protestors are really the guys shooting other protestors at maidan claim is laughable considering we got footage of the protestors being shot at by police.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Stas, I feel you are misunderstanding me. The police are trying to hide the fact that they are shooting at maidan protestors by the claim that the protestors at maidan are shooting each other.

That is what I am talking about. I am not talking about protestors shooting or not shooting people outside maidan. What I am claiming is that the protestors are really the guys shooting other protestors at maidan claim is laughable considering we got footage of the protestors being shot at by police.

So what's the issue if both did happen?

[Thanas]

What?

[Flagg]

What?

I think he's asking if both the police are shooting at protestors and whether rival groups of protestors are also shooting at each other.

[Thanas]

And what factions would be present at maidan that are engaged in a violent struggle among themselves?

[Flagg]

And what factions would be present at maidan that are engaged in a violent struggle among themselves?

I'm not saying I agree that it's happening, was just clarifying my interpretation of what he's asking.

[fgalkin]

And what factions would be present at maidan that are engaged in a violent struggle among themselves?

The fascists and the unionists.

And yes, we know that Ukrainian authorities are shooting protestors. When a crowd of 2000 was attacking the SBU headquarters in Chmelnitsky, the defenders were given permission to shoot to kill, and dispersed the crowd after killing three people.

In Ivano-Frankivsk, they didn't and the crowd made off with 300 firearms, 3 light machineguns, and 15k rounds of ammo.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Irbis]

If you had read the twitter feed I linked to you'd note the tweet does mention the ukrainian explanations.

I said western news sources. You know that 2/3 of my family was born on the territory of current Ukraine? Even if most of them don't live there anymore, in my family people watch English, Polish, Russian and Ukrainian TV. And you know what, what I saw and what we observed seems to agree with the events as presented by the media the less the further away the reporting country is from the Kiev.

Oh right. We are going to believe the police now of a sudden when on German TV they had footage of police firing into the crowd. No way does the police explanation hold any water.

Remember the initial "Sochi" footage? Also, main reply below.

Stas, I feel you are misunderstanding me. The police are trying to hide the fact that they are shooting at maidan protestors by the claim that the protestors at maidan are shooting each other.

Trying to hide? Or saying that police did not receive orders to fire?

We have two things - people with gun wounds and footage of policemen firing. However, when you think about it, one doesn't need to follow other. Until we have proof that A) police fired to kill, not simply in the air or using rubber bullets, B) wounds are not the result of friendly fire of overeager crowd hitting each other as they spray towards the police, I am going to take both of these claims with a lot of salt. Maidan's truth:propaganda ratio was rather poor so far, and as I said, something as simple as kill count strongly disproves their case.

And anyway, the government would be to blame only if they gave orders to fire. I would not blame them for actions of individual policemen that were currently under gunfire or deadly threat, your own streams shown overran policemen that would be killed by poor "peaceful protesters" had not for counter-charges pulling them away at last possible moment.

And what factions would be present at maidan that are engaged in a violent struggle among themselves?

Have you noticed any gay activists or rainbow flags on Maidan recently? No? They were there in the beginning, until multiple attacks from right wingers beating people with sticks and destroying banners with equality messages left several activists hospitalized and that part of protest dying. Oh, and no Maidan leader dared to condemn that so far to not antagonize right wingers. Great going there, "peaceful protesters"

Ukraine as it is now has rather lenient gay regulations, for ex-soviet state anyway. Once nationalists will seize power, Ukrainian gays will be asking Russia for asylum. But hey, who cares, when we can show the finger to Putin?

[Siege]

What the fuck are you people even arguing over? From the look of it the country is descending into civil war, God knows how many factions are now or will soon be fighting each other, and chances are even the powers-that-be trying to mediate the situation have very different ideas about who to trust and what to do. There's a lot of very unhelpful talk of "the media", "the west", "the protestors" and so forth in this thread. None of those things are monolithic entities. Hell, apparently even "the Ukrainian authorities" is breaking down as a singular body; it would be nice if the conversation here reflected that, because maybe then we'd get somewhere.

[Thanas]

If you had read the twitter feed I linked to you'd note the tweet does mention the ukrainian explanations.

I said western news sources.

And how the hell does the German state TV correspondent not count as a western news source, you stupid potato?

We have two things - people with gun wounds and footage of policemen firing. However, when you think about it, one doesn't need to follow other. Until we have proof that A) police fired to kill, not simply in the air or using rubber bullets, B) wounds are not the result of friendly fire of overeager crowd hitting each other as they spray towards the police, I am going to take both of these claims with a lot of salt. Maidan's truth:propaganda ratio was rather poor so far, and as I said, something as simple as kill count strongly disproves their case.

And anyway, the government would be to blame only if they gave orders to fire. I would not blame them for actions of individual policemen that were currently under gunfire or deadly threat, your own streams shown overran policemen that would be killed by poor "peaceful protesters" had not for counter-charges pulling them away at last possible moment.

I agree with all of that. But if the police claim shot protestors were shot by their own people despite footage showing police firing, that excuse is pretty thin, no?

Have you noticed any gay activists or rainbow flags on Maidan recently? No? They were there in the beginning, until multiple attacks from right wingers beating people with sticks and destroying banners with equality messages left several activists hospitalized and that part of protest dying. Oh, and no Maidan leader dared to condemn that so far to not antagonize right wingers. Great going there, "peaceful protesters"

Ukraine as it is now has rather lenient gay regulations, for ex-soviet state anyway. Once nationalists will seize power, Ukrainian gays will be asking Russia for asylum. But hey, who cares, when we can show the finger to Putin?

Dude, I never claimed that the fascists are anything but. OTOH the vast majority of protesters seem to be peaceful.

[fgalkin]

Thanas, there are plenty of pics of protestors firing guns. Do you think they are using rubber bullets?

Like so:



Hell, Stas posted a pic with "protestors" in Lvov with fucking artillery

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[K. A. Pital]

And what factions would be present at maidan that are engaged in a violent struggle among themselves?

A lot of them, actually. Hell, one of the Maidan activists was caught by some faction and beaten for three hours - they either mistook him for a pro-government somebody or thought he wasn't helpful to their particular cause. Liberals (Klitchko and company) don't control shit there right now, and the nationalists are quite right to claim that the so-called "Maidan leaders" aren't any authority to them.

BTW, I am not sure if the Ukraine will fall apart now, though: it seems that Yanukovich agreed to "extraordinary elections" right now; this means that for now, the protests may die down a bit. But once the government changes, disintegration of the country will continue.

[Thanas]

Thanas, there are plenty of pics of protestors firing guns. Do you think they are using rubber bullets?

FFS. Like I said numerous times, I am not disputing that they are firing at the police.

[Lolpah]

But once the government changes, disintegration of the country will continue.

Could you elaborate on this?

[K. A. Pital]

But once the government changes, disintegration of the country will continue.

Could you elaborate on this?

There's nothing to elaborate on, really - the East and especially Crimea won't accept a Bandera-praising nationalist government, while the West won't accept any government that is aligned with Russia (not to mention notorious corruption will always be there for such a government). Two parts have been artificially joined, historically, and since almost nothing holds them together (many things have been tried in search of common identity: being Russian-lite, appealing to the hunger in 1933 as a 'common Ukrainian tragedy', bringing up Bandera... none of them worked) - they're bound to go separate ways.

I only hope it happens with as little bloodshed as possible.

[Spoonist]

So now its a re-election. Which IMO brings us closer to a new divide but might cool things down short term.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318
More at the link...

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych has agreed to hold a presidential election before the end of the year, as part of a deal to end the crisis.

He said he had also agreed to a national unity government, and to make constitutional changes reducing the power of the president.

The compromise came after hours of talks with the opposition leaders.

The opposition has not spoken about the deal and it remains unclear whether protesters will back it.

[Lagmonster]

In the Ukraine, you should always add a cleric to your party.

(Badass priest photograph taken by Sergey Gapon/AFP)