Ukraine War Thread

[IronStar]

Well, i didnt want to concern this topic here but decided to say few words after all but still expect shit to be thrown at me.
I completely agree that people s rage and will to overthrow government in this particular way is completely justified - post soviet period is truly disastrous for Ukraine with severe economic decline and corrupted officials- i am not again all people from Maidan- i am against their leaders and their fashist dogs they barely control who are not better than Yanukovich at all. Do you seriously think that Timoshenko with Klichko and Yacenuk with their EU asscociation are really going to help?
Return to 2004 constitution and stuff are good but they wont prevent collapse of economy- and EU association is going to make it even worse.
And there is also a real danger of fascists going to power. New internal affairs minister Avakov(and there were several charges connected with corruption against him) said that representatives of right wing organisations will receive positions in internal affairs(actually it seems that this has already happened.) http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/02/22/7015717/.

Just a little about these fashists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmOOn8UJWNE#t=62 its Alexander Muzichko one of the leaders of UNA-UNSO(right wing extremists) and yes- it is AK in his hands and in that vid he says that right wing has firearms and that they are ready to use them. Besides- Muzichko is not just some right freak- he with some of UNA-UNSO were mercenaries in Chechnya fighting for separatists.
All these right organizations- UNA-UNSO, "Bendera s trezub", "White hammer" - they are not just some freaks but trained and organized power. Yes there are many people at Maidan who are not fashists, but fashists are are their main "combat" force- Maidan woudnt have been so succesfull without them actually.

About weapons and police shooting- all the info about SBU weapon stockpiles captured by fascist was already given, now- interview wit police "Berkut" major who voluntarily surrendered to Maidan http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/02/20/major/
He says that Berkut didnt have any firearms- only batons, shields and shotguns with rubber. He also says that there were many of them wounded from firearms.
About snipers- this http://lb.ua/news/2014/02/22/256600_voz ... _radi.html (this site is close to above mentioned Avakov so pls no "disinformations!!" shouts)- it says that Berkut policemen reported to be shot by snipers too- some of them killed. These snipers are absolutely definite provocation- there was no logical sense for Yanukovich to organize this shooting AT ALL- if he had any intention to stop Maidan with brute force- he would do this far earlier and much faster while in fact he was trying to make a lot of concessions to Maidan and was negotiating with their leaders AND- he was EU association advocate(why he stopped it- different story) and EU with US supported Maidan not solely by words(Nuland-anybody?)- any act of violence from him against protesters would have turned too bad for his own plans- no EU and shitload of sanctions imposed at best.

There is also different info that you may be interested in- far not all people at Ukraine support Maidan
Core of Anti- Maidan is in Sevastopol
http://sevastopolis.com/news/5843.html
http://glagol.in.ua/2014/02/23/20-tyisy ... na-rossii/
People there have already created their own executive-comitee.
Actually, today they owerthown city s mayor(he voluntarily resigned) and the head of commitee will become the new http://www.rusnovosti.ru/news/305283/
If you think that they support Yanukovich- you are wrong. They greatly despice both Yanukovich with "Party of regions" and Maidan(mainly cause of fascists).
Same in Odessa http://www.rusnovosti.ru/news/305283/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Xvm-A7Cb4(also- some Bendera supporters were beaten there lately)
Kharkov http://www.kp.ru/daily/26198.5/3085108/
And there is same in Lugansk, Doneck, Donbass, Eupatoria.
Also there is some information about people organizing in self-defense.

[IronStar]

Some more- leader of right wing speaks at maidan tribune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYGo0kRNJcQ(some random shit about great Ukraine, Bendera mottos and "fight must go on") - nobody seems to stop him from speaking and Maidan public seems to like it.
More right wing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhGHjtoyHOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeCZFHGIa8s
They use symbols of fascist Ukranian units that were serving to Hitler during WW2 and glory "heroes"- leaders of these groups(Bendera most notable) - do yo really like THESE protesters? As i said- these are actually most active ones.

[Lolpah]

The "Holy shit" was an exagerration. I wasn't quite sure how to express that I disapproved of this, because I had used the phrase "language issue" and feared that people would interpret that bad phrasing as some kind of apologism towards the nationalists, so I used that phrase. Probably should have rewritten the entire thing to avoid confusion, but somehow that didn't occur to me.

I wasn't quite expecting this, not yet at least - I thought that considering the Ukrainian parliament 1) is not on line with the extreme nationalists, per your statements and 2) would not risk this kind of measure that could potentially cause very bad PR in EU and USA, their supporters, if the media grasped on it ("Ukrainian Parliament oppresses minorities"). Although I might be too optimistic about the latter.

[IronStar]

You are too optimistic. Fashists are VERY powerfull there. I ve had somewhere video of fascits squads stopping policemen and checking their documents. And these fascists are in rada and actively in legislation. Hell, they are in Internal affairs ministry now.
And yes- west didnt give a SHIT when fascists were ones of main Ushenko(who was US man) supporters and neither they give shit now. Fo fuck s sake- EU representatives were shaking hands in "Peoples rada" with Tiagnibok. Who is anti-semite, anti-russian, anti democratic fascist.

[Thanas]

About weapons and police shooting- all the info about SBU weapon stockpiles captured by fascist was already given, now- interview wit police "Berkut" major who voluntarily surrendered to Maidan http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/02/20/major/
He says that Berkut didnt have any firearms- only batons, shields and shotguns with rubber. He also says that there were many of them wounded from firearms.

What are those then?

These are just as biased as the video about Russia already moving tanks into Sevastopol.

These snipers are absolutely definite provocation- there was no logical sense for Yanukovich to organize this shooting AT ALL- if he had any intention to stop Maidan with brute force- he would do this far earlier and much faster while in fact he was trying to make a lot of concessions to Maidan and was negotiating with their leaders

He could not do so as the army refused and due to international pressure. He did not suddenly grow a conscience. The snipers had to be government forces as well unless you can show how the protestors suddenly managed to conquer the governemnt half of the buildings and fire from there.

[Thanas]

As to the rest of the country, I am pretty sure that what we see is the usual excess at the end of every revolution. It is pretty tame so far in total compared to other bloody revolutions in the past.

BTW, Russia just threatened to force the Ukraine into bankruptcy if they dare to sign the association agreement with the EU. How democratic. The way Medvedev talks about the security of "Russian citizens" when talking about Eastern Ukrainian Russians is pretty telling as well.

[IronStar]

What are those then?

Nobody has a freakin clue. But Maidan say that this is government- so be it, Maidan is not biased right?

These are just as biased as the video about Russia already moving tanks into Sevastopol

Biased? This is goddamn interview with major of Berkut who VOLUNARILY surrendered to Maidan.

And about Maidan been not biased. Since congress of East Ukraine officials Maidans vere spamming shit about Kernes and Dobkin(region governor and Kharkov mayor who were in charge of that congress) leaving Ukraina with their luxury and stuff. Guess what? Here they are http://www.kp.ru/daily/26198.5/3085108/

how the protestors suddenly managed to conquer the governemnt half of the buildings and fire from there

Actually all sources(and video, and this article from Ukr news site that is close to current pro-maidant minister of foreign affairs) clearly indicate that snipers were not shooting from berkut s side, and berkut has suffered from them too.
And about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY5rzNs-XC8 what is said to be intercepted radio talk between these snipers and that is actively forced among Maidan supporters. Even if it is true, they speak only about shooting ARMED radicals.

BTW, Russia just threatened to force the Ukraine into bankruptcy

Where is this from?
And by the way- it is clearly a coup, and demonstration is NOT peacefull- but west media says otherwise. 2x2=5
And how wonderfully sound these accusations for intervention into affairs of other state after this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbkDGdiIDA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9QjFzvd6Y
By the way- if you think that i am pro-Putin imperialist- you are really, REALLY wrong. Actually these attemtpts of Putin imagining himself fuckin emperor are....i dont even know what to say.

[fgalkin]

What are those then?

Fort-500 shotguns, which are used to fire rubber bullets. The one on the left looks like an AKM, but IIRC, they can also fire nonlethal ammunition.

He could not do so as the army refused and due to international pressure. He did not suddenly grow a conscience. The snipers had to be government forces as well unless you can show how the protestors suddenly managed to conquer the governemnt half of the buildings and fire from there.

According to Berkut police, they came under fire from unidentified snipers, losing 3 dead and 21 wounded in half an hour. (including one case where the bullet pierced the ballistic vest right through and exited the body) . Once they pulled back, the territory was occupied by the protestors, who didn't know about the snipers, and also came under fire from the same place. To all involved, it looked like protestors broke the ceasefire and attacked, and then the government responded with sniper fire.

The authorities believe this was a provocation, intended to escalate the conflict with one side blaming the other. Due to the high level of professionalism involved, the suspects are currently Alfa unit, Zaharchenko's Eagles, mercs from the Caucasus, or, possibly, Russia. In other words, no one really knows, but it wasn't the police, and it wasn't under Yannik's orders.
At least, not to Berkut.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[IronStar]

And here is more.
List of the members of new government
http://www.versii.com/news/298037/
first vice-premier- Tiagnibok- leader of "Svoboda"
minister of ecology and natural resoures- from "Svoboda"
minister of culture- from svoboda
minister of education- svoboda
minister of judiciary- svoboda
Svoboda is the main right-wing-fascist party of Ukraine- advocate of Bendera and those who were serving Hitler during WW2 and openly admits it.
Glory to democracy and human rights

[Thanas]

What are those then?

Nobody has a freakin clue. But Maidan say that this is government- so be it, Maidan is not biased right?

No, Media who saw them act against protestors did say so. BTW, you can easily see the molotov thrown at them. So either they are government forces with AKs or they are protestors who the government (the same that was unarmed according to you) is throwing molotovs at rebels. Either way, the Berkut guy is clearly lying.

Biased? This is goddamn interview with major of Berkut who VOLUNARILY surrendered to Maidan.

A lot of Gestapo who surrendered voluntarily also suddenly had nothing to do with war crimes.

All sources(and video) clearly indicate that snipers were not shooting from berkut s side, and berkut has sufferd from them too.
And about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY5rzNs-XC8 what is said to be intercepted radio talk between these snipers and that is actively forced among Maidan supporters. Even if it is true, they speak only about shooting ARMED radicals.

Dude, the German media that was there was counting the shots, including some fired at them. Definitely not rebel snipers. Cui bono?

BTW, Russia just threatened to force the Ukraine into bankruptcy

Where is this from?

http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/ukr ... en102.html
Link is in German but you can probably google it. Basically Russia threatens to call in 15 billion of Government dept, increase tariffs and threatens to cut off gas exports.

And by the way- it is clearly a coup, and demonstration is NOT peacefull- but west media says otherwise. 2x2=5

Get off. The vast majority of people were not beating the police with batons.

By the way- if you think that i am pro-Putin imperialist- you are really, REALLY wrong.

Since all you link to is Kreml propaganda....if it walks like a duck.....

What are those then?

Fort-500 carbines, which are used to fire rubber bullets. The one on the left looks like an AKM, but IIRC, they can also fire nonlethal ammunition.

Or they are just standard armament. Given how the Ukrainian police used live shotguns in the protests (Lonestar provided the detail on this board) I don't see why they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

According to Berkut police, they came under fire from unidentified snipers, losing 3 dead and 21 wounded in half an hour. (including one case where the bullet pierced the ballistic vest right through and exited the body) . Once they pulled back, the territory was occupied by the protestors, who didn't know about the snipers, and also came under fire from the same place. To all involved, it looked like protestors broke the ceasefire and attacked, and then the government responded with sniper fire.

The authorities believe this was a provocation, intended to escalate the conflict with one side blaming the other. Due to the high level of professionalism involved, the suspects are currently Alfa unit, Zaharchenko's Eagles, mercs from the Caucasus, or, possibly, Russia. In other words, no one really knows, but it wasn't the police, and it wasn't under Yannik's orders.
At least, not to Berkut.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Well, that just muddles the whole thing. But I don't see muich evidence that the rebels did it. Cui bono?

And here is more.
List of the members of new government
http://www.versii.com/news/298037/
first vice-premier- Tiagnibok- leader of "Svoboda"
minister of ecology and natural resoures- from "Svoboda"
minister of culture- from svoboda
minister of education- svoboda
minister of judiciary- svoboda
Svoboda is the main right-wing-fascist party of Ukraine- advocate of Bendera and those who were serving Hitler during WW2 and openly admits it.
Glory to democracy and human rights

That actually is pretty good. They only got the judiciary and a few other uninmportant ministries. This clearly shows they are not the main party in power.

[fgalkin]

Unimportant? Thanas, they control the Ministry of Culture, Ministry of Information, and the Judiciary. The three most important ministries in post-Soviet states after Defense and Internal Affairs. Banderovite fascism has just become the de jure official ideology of the Euromaidan Ukraine.

Remember Russia's anti-gay law? If this continues. I predict that within two years, Ukrainian gays will be seeking aslylum IN RUSSIA.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Well, that just muddles the whole thing. But I don't see muich evidence that the rebels did it. Cui bono?

Another version suggested by some in the SBU is that it was the Ukrainian oligarchs who decided that Yannik needs to go, and so stabbed him in the back. It would certainly not be out of the realm of possibility, given the omnipresent mafia connections within Ukraine's political and business world.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[IronStar]

A lot of Gestapo who surrendered voluntarily also suddenly had nothing to do with war crimes.

reductio ad hitlerum. Nuff said.

Link is in German but you can probably google it. Basically Russia threatens to call in 15 billion of Government dept, increase tariffs and threatens to cut off gas exports.

First- it doesn state ANY sources at actual speeches or stuff. Second- i ve gogled- nothing AT all- what there is dated 2013-2012 and earlier and has nothing to do with subject at all.

Get off. The vast majority of people were not beating the police with batons.

Right-wings- did beat. To death. And doing a lot of other neat stuff.

Since all you link to is Kreml propaganda....if it walks like a duck.....

The fuck? The only russian sources i ve posted are lenta and rusnovosti, and they concern anti- maidan protest, not shooting. Other are Ukrain news sites like Lb.ua
And please for fuck s sake- not all sources and news sites originating from Russia are Kremlin propagand- some are useful.

[fgalkin]

Seriously, Thanas, your accusation of Kremlin propaganda is unfounded,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrayinska_Pravda is Kremlin propaganda? Or, perhaps LB.ua?

Or, from the Russian side, perhaps, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenta.ru ?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

And, it has begun

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-sy ... firebombs/

A synagogue in eastern Ukraine sustained minor damage from firebombs hurled at it by unidentified individuals.

The firebombs hit the Giymat Rosa Synagogue in Zaporizhia, located 250 miles southeast of Kiev, on the night of February 23, according to a report Monday on the news site timenews.in.ua.

The website published photos that showed the traces of a fire on the facade of the balcony of the synagogue, which opened its doors in 2012.

A spokesperson for the Zhovtneviy District where the synagogue is located said no one was hurt in the attack and that police were searching for suspects. Officers found the neck of a glass bottle which was used as a Molotov cocktail, according to the Central Directorate of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Several Ukrainian media reported erroneously that the attack happened in Kiev.

The Ukrainian capital and other cities have seen the eruption of a wave of violent demonstrations that culminated this weekend with the apparent ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych.

The country’s new acting government has issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of the murder of about 100 protesters who died in street clashes last week.

The unrest began in November over Yanukovych’s refusal to sign a deal which would have tightened Ukraine’s ties with the European Union – a move which many saw as jeopardizing the country’s complicated relationship with Russia.

Several Jewish communities in Kiev have beefed up their security arrangements during the unrest. Other communities put their activities on hold out of safety concerns.

Ukraine has a Jewish population of 360,000 – 400,000 people, with roughly a quarter of all the country’s Jews residing in Kiev, according to the European Jewish Congress. The Jewish Agency put the figure at 200,000.

Read more: Ukraine synagogue hit by firebombs | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-sy ... z2uGNeXsHB
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[K. A. Pital]

As to the rest of the country, I am pretty sure that what we see is the usual excess at the end of every revolution. It is pretty tame so far in total compared to other bloody revolutions in the past.

Excesses in what? Nationalism shouldn't exist. Period. Nationalism is madness. But this is far worse than simple nationalism, there's anti-semitism and open fascism in the mix. It is hard to ignore.

BTW, Russia just threatened to force the Ukraine into bankruptcy if they dare to sign the association agreement with the EU. How democratic. The way Medvedev talks about the security of "Russian citizens" when talking about Eastern Ukrainian Russians is pretty telling as well.

People in Crimea are Russian citizens all right, Thanas. They often hold a Russian passport. Who the hell do you think they are, Ukrainians by virtue of living in the Ukraine?

Besides, Russia agreed to bail out Ukraine from default with 15 billion dollars that would be used to buy Ukrainian Eurobonds - which are worth about as much as toilet paper. You must be out of your mind to think that Russia would provide this money for free. It forced a much more cooperative Belarus into a customs union by strong-arming them with a "gas war", for Pete's sake. Are you mistaking this for charity? Neither is the EU bailout of 20 billion a charity - it was nowhere on the books until Yatsenuk said that Ukraine is de-facto bankrupt unless the West hands the money, right fucking now.

What you witness here is a bankrupt state asking for money from two power blocs that are ready to tear the thing apart.

That actually is pretty good. They only got the judiciary and a few other uninmportant ministries. This clearly shows they are not the main party in power.

*laughs* Thanas, you have no fucking idea how power in post-Soviet states functions. You have zero fucking idea, admit it. Those aren't "states" in your understanding of the world nation-state, they are more like localized Turkmenias, where the judiciary and the ministry of culture can do very, very nasty things - from censorship to ethnic cleansing. Which has happened more than once in Central Asia, and elsewhere in post-Soviet states, and not just to Russians, but also to Uzbeks, Tajiks and many others.

But wait. Why the fuck am I explaining this to you? Were you too young to see Yugoslavia?

[Thanas]

reductio ad hitlerum. Nuff said.

Do you even understand how that fallacy works? Apparently not.

First- it doesn state ANY sources at actual speeches or stuff. Second- i ve gogled- nothing AT all- what there is dated 2013-2012 and earlier and has nothing to do with subject at all.

They do quote Medvedev and the russian high Government. I fail to see how anyone could ever miss this.

Get off. The vast majority of people were not beating the police with batons.

Right-wings- did beat. To death. And doing a lot of other neat stuff.

It is almost like you are not understanding the words written.

The vast majority of people are not fascists and they were not beating police. Right wingers did. The two are not the same.

Since all you link to is Kreml propaganda....if it walks like a duck.....

The fuck? The only russian sources i ve posted are lenta and rusnovosti, and they concern anti- maidan protest, not shooting. Other are Ukrain news sites like Lb.ua

And RT, which as fgalkin has previously proven is nothing but Putins mouthpiece.

And please for fuck s sake- not all sources and news sites originating from Russia are Kremlin propagand- some are useful.

There is precious few independent media in Russia. Most are Kremlin controlled. Only NG even remotely comes close to a free and critical news paper.

Unimportant? Thanas, they control the Ministry of Culture, Ministry of Information, and the Judiciary. The three most important ministries in post-Soviet states after Defense and Internal Affairs. Banderovite fascism has just become the de jure official ideology of the Euromaidan Ukraine.

Remember Russia's anti-gay law? If this continues. I predict that within two years, Ukrainian gays will be seeking aslylum IN RUSSIA.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

They don't control finance, defence, internal affairs, foreign office or the presidency. These are the big ticket items. What I see is a minority party within a coaliton, not the driving force some people try to make them out to be.

The website published photos that showed the traces of a fire on the facade of the balcony of the synagogue, which opened its doors in 2012.

A spokesperson for the Zhovtneviy District where the synagogue is located said no one was hurt in the attack and that police were searching for suspects. Officers found the neck of a glass bottle which was used as a Molotov cocktail, according to the Central Directorate of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

So one idiot hurls a molotov, does little damage and suddenly people are going to claim this is the start of state-organized progroms? Disappointing.

Excesses in what? Nationalism shouldn't exist. Period. Nationalism is madness.

Neither should other things but it is what it is. What do you prefer? Some period of nationalists or the government violently putting down an uprising of over two thirds of its citizens and starting a terror regime? Because it is pretty clear to me that one of the two are a lesser evil and it is not the latter.

People in Crimea are Russian citizens all right, Thanas. They often hold a Russian passport. Who the hell do you think they are, Ukrainians by virtue of living in the Ukraine?

My mistake, I thought people living in a state hold citizenship of that state. The people do vote in the elections, right?

Besides, Russia agreed to bail out Ukraine from default with 15 billion dollars that would be used to buy Ukrainian Eurobonds - which are worth about as much as toilet paper. You must be out of your mind to think that Russia would provide this money for free. It forced a much more cooperative Belarus into a customs union by strong-arming them with a "gas war", for Pete's sake. Are you mistaking this for charity? Neither is the EU bailout of 20 billion a charity - it was nowhere on the books until Yatsenuk said that Ukraine is de-facto bankrupt unless the West hands the money, right fucking now.

Nono, nobody expects Russia to be anything but an imperialistic power. I thought I was quite clear on that. I just don't like the methods used here to subvert the will of the people.

*laughs* Thanas, you have no fucking idea how power in post-Soviet states functions. You have zero fucking idea, admit it. Those aren't "states" in your understanding of the world nation-state, they are more like localized Turkmenias, where the judiciary and the ministry of culture can do very, very nasty things - from censorship to ethnic cleansing. Which has happened more than once in Central Asia, and elsewhere in post-Soviet states, and not just to Russians, but also to Uzbeks, Tajiks and many others.

But wait. Why the fuck am I explaining this to you? Were you too young to see Yugoslavia?

No, but the situations are hardly the same and I don't get why people insist they are. Yugoslavia has a completely different history and ethnic makeup. As to the ministries, like I said above, aside from the judiciary there are no big ticket items. It all depends on who wins the upcoming elections. I predict it will not be the fascists who will be the strongest party after that and they are not the strongest party still.

It is like people go "FASCISTS FASCISTS FASCISTS" and go into rabid attack mode without even acknowledging the possibility that they are just one of many parties represented and not the one which holds the most power.

[K. A. Pital]

Thanas, I said this once and I will repeat: you haven't lived in a post-Soviet "state", I did, and for most of my god damn life.

There are no "unimportant ministries": ministry of culture and judiciary are among the most important in the power structure of such a state. Prosecution is in these "states" often a "state within a state". As you can see, a lot of the ultra-right will be staffing the police, and the prosecution (after the collapse of Ukraine's power structure) is controlled by people whose views are more fitting for a Neanderthal, racist antisemites who'd probably work for Rosenberg if he was still alive.

None of this shit concerns you. Of course. It should be that way, probably, since you have no first hand experience of such racism.

My mistake, I thought people living in a state hold citizenship of that state.

Yes - that's your mistake. Do you know that there's a whole bunch of people who live in a state without even having citizenship? And where are such states of neo-apartheid located, maybe we can find out? Oh right: they're located in the EU. Estonia and company. But okay, they had complex history, this excuses them - after all, just like other ethnocratic regimes they have a right to 'cleanse' them of unwanted foreigners, right? Well what about the fact that for many CIS state it was possible to move without even having a travel passport and stay there without any limtiations? That's cool, right? That's a lot like the EU, travel freedom and all?

So of course there's a shitload of people with Russian passports in Ukraine. And Belorus. And in Russia there's lots of Ukrainians and Belorussians.

What would you think it would look like if Russia started harping about how all those dirty Ukrainians are spoiling Moscow's grand Russian plans? And deported them back to Ukraine? After all, only citizens can live inside a country, right?

Ugh. Unbelievable! This type of stuff... and Europe considers itself civilized?

Yugoslavia has a completely different history and ethnic makeup.

Look, Ukraine's West was 400 years away from Russia. Ukraine's East was basically Russia the same amount of time. What was created after 1939 was about as good a 'state' as those Middle East states you posted about in History. Straight lines drawn on the map by Imperial Russia, then by the USSR. Here and there.

You think that's normal?

[Thanas]

Thanas, I said this once and I will repeat: you haven't lived in a post-Soviet "state", I did, and for most of my god damn life.

There are no "unimportant ministries": ministry of culture and judiciary are among the most important in the power structure of such a state. Prosecution is in these "states" often a "state within a state". As you can see, a lot of the ultra-right will be staffing the police, and the prosecution (after the collapse of Ukraine's power structure) is controlled by people whose views are more fitting for a Neanderthal, racist antisemites who'd probably work for Rosenberg if he was still alive.

None of this shit concerns you. Of course. It should be that way, probably, since you have no first hand experience of such racism.

Don't get me wrong - I do not find the situation ideal or even good. You should know by now that I am not a friend of police abuse or fascism. I do find it concerning.

But I also think it is the lesser of two evils. Do you disagree with that?

I also think the people who want to join the EU, who want to have a real democracy are in the majority there.

Yes - that's your mistake. Do you know that there's a whole bunch of people who live in a state without even having citizenship? And where are such states of neo-apartheid located, maybe we can find out? Oh right: they're located in the EU. Estonia and company. But okay, they had complex history, this excuses them - after all, just like other ethnocratic regimes they have a right to 'cleanse' them of unwanted foreigners, right?

The Baltics have indeed problems with their Russian minorities and I wish both parties - including the Russians who are as obstinate as can be about anything the Baltics do to distance themselves from the soviet occupation - would be more reasonable. I should note that the EU general rights do extend to all people with EU citizenship.

So of course there's a shitload of people with Russian passports in Ukraine. And Belorus. And in Russia there's lots of Ukrainians and Belorussians.

Noted.

What would you think it would look like if Russia started harping about how all those dirty Ukrainians are spoiling Moscow's grand Russian plans? And deported them back to Ukraine?

Isn't this par the course for other minorities like Chechens already? Minus the deportations, of course, but it is not like racism is not already an integral part of Russian society.

After all, only citizens can live inside a country, right?

Fuck off, you know that is not what I meant. Are you trying to purposely distort every word of mine to be the worst there is, Stas?

Look, Ukraine's West was 400 years away from Russia. Ukraine's East was basically Russia the same amount of time. What was created after 1939 was about as good a 'state' as those Middle East states you posted about in History. Straight lines drawn on the map by Imperial Russia, then by the USSR. Here and there.

You think that's normal?

No and in the long run only Ukrainian nationalism might stop a breakup of the country, which might be for better in the long run anyway. But these are not the balkans. The Ukraininans are not suddenly going to genocide the Russian part of the population. Ukraine is not comprised of a dozen different tribes or ethnics vying for control. You got two dominant ethnics who are not uniform blocks.

[K. A. Pital]

So a dozen racist states all the way from Eastern Europe through Russia to Central Asia are not enough. Let's make another one! Ukrainian nationalism is Western-Galician nationalism; and that type of nationalism can keep the West together very well, but it can't keep the East, since it is based on the idea of forced derussification.

I'm not twisting your words: you were really ignorant enough to assume that only citizens of a post-Soviet state may live in this state, and not citizens of another nearby state. Whereas the CIS had perhaps the most liberal inter-border movement regime in Eastern Europe for a very long time. Which, coincidentally, led to very huge migrations and inflamed inter-ethnic tensions all over the place.

Moreover, derussification will create more tensions. Yugoslavia had many ethnicities, but even two self-defined ethnicities with a history of centuries bad blood are enough - Rwanda, for example.

I should note that the EU general rights do extend to all people with EU citizenship.

So how can it be that there's a bunch of people living in this territory without having citizenship? That's just silly. Is Russian such a bad language that its users have to be shunned in the EU?

But I also think it is the lesser of two evils. Do you disagree with that?

I think Yanukovich should face the guilllotine just as most post-Soviet "rulers" (make no mistake: hardly any are legitimate, most are just thugs who belong to prison at best). But I think exchanging a criminal for a pack of racists isn't a situation of "lesser evil", it's just a shitty situation, period.

But before that some people believed that nationalists in Central Asia, whose views were so crazy it seemed they just crawled out from a cave, are a lesser evil too. I hope these people all just go to Turkmenistan or get some good old corrective group rapes and honor killings.

I hope fascists fail. I sincerely do. But they're organized and popular, so...

[Siege]

The EU is apparently potentially willing to hand Ukraine a 20 billion euro check to alleviate some of its cashflow problems. That much money presumably buys at least a little influence but at the same time I'm still deeply sceptical of handing sacks of cash to countries with deep and pervasive corruption problems, particularly if those problems come with bonus fascist trouble.

Still might be better than just letting the state collapse into financial ruination, but €20 billion isn't going to fix Ukraine. It's a mess with no easy solution, and on the whole I think it's probably better for the EU to be involved than to wash its hands off it, but I do wonder what exactly we're getting into.

[K. A. Pital]

Someone has to pay this money. Otherwise it will get even more ugly. Ukraine is kind of like North Korea in that regard.

[IronStar]

Do you even understand how that fallacy works? Apparently not.

Don t worry for my intellectual abilities, i clearly understand how does it work and it is quite applicable here.

It is almost like you are not understanding the words written.

The vast majority of people are not fascists and they were not beating police. Right wingers did. The two are not the same.

I understand everything. It may be true that vast majority are not fascist- actually we don t even have any hints about how numerous Maidan is except this which is not very useful now
http://112.ua/obshchestvo/seychas-v-sam ... 22416.html - so at 17 of february there were about 12500 - this is info from a Batkiwshina s represantative- one of three major parties in opposition and no it is not "kremlin propoganda"- 112ua is Ukranian wews site.
We don t know exact percentage of fascists there, but it doesn t change anything- i ve watched a CRAPTON of translations from Maidan(almost all from yotube not news) - almost in every vid you can hear right wing motto and hails, and there is NO video without flags of right wing organizations. And i ve also read a lot of comments from people living in Ukraina and Kiev about how freakin much fascists are there.

And even if we assume that there are not many fascists- there are plenty of videos of fascist leaders speaking in front of Maidan and it is ok for everybody- Maidan actually hails them. People are ok with fascists being on Maidian. People are ok with fascists beating and tossing out left-wing maidan supporters.
Whatever number of fascist on Maidan is(and it is huge) people there support them. Deal. With. It.

And you really think that EU integration is going to help? Do you think that Timoshenko as a president is going to bring democracy, wealth and stuff? She and all that opposition are absolutely same parts of Ukrainian corrupted oligarchy as Yanukovich.

I dont think that it is really worth it to continue debate - you just dismiss every source contradicting your position as "Kremlin propaganda" or another reason convenient for you. I can act in similar way and say that everything to contradict mine point of view is "Maidan-Nuland" or "Bendera-Tiagnibok" propaganda and this is not a way to debate.

Some news from Crimea
New mayor was elected in Sevastopol http://divan.tv/tv/view/nts-sevastopol-323 he is head of committee created during large Sevastopol anti-maidan demonstration. And that it is a result of blocking of the city administration by the demonstration, which actually forced former mayor to resign. And guess what- new administration doesn t recognize the new government.

Organization of self-defense units in Simferopol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_l9My5fG-E

[Thanas]

So a dozen racist states all the way from Eastern Europe through Russia to Central Asia are not enough. Let's make another one! Ukrainian nationalism is Western-Galician nationalism; and that type of nationalism can keep the West together very well, but it can't keep the East, since it is based on the idea of forced derussification.

Disagree. Both eastern and western poltiicans have called for the country to be kept together. I don't see anybody from the east advocating splitting up the country.

I'm not twisting your words:

Yes you are, by claiming I am of the opinion that only citizens have a right to stay.

you were really ignorant enough to assume that only citizens of a post-Soviet state may live in this state, and not citizens of another nearby state. Whereas the CIS had perhaps the most liberal inter-border movement regime in Eastern Europe for a very long time. Which, coincidentally, led to very huge migrations and inflamed inter-ethnic tensions all over the place.

My mistake was in assuming that people who lived there when the Soviet Union finally keeled over and died were automatically given citizenship of the new states they were living in. As for immigrants after the liberation of the eastern countries I apparently was underestimating just how many Russians wanted to get out of their own state, my mistake as well.

Moreover, derussification will create more tensions. Yugoslavia had many ethnicities, but even two self-defined ethnicities with a history of centuries bad blood are enough - Rwanda, for example.

As if the situations are comparable.....

So how can it be that there's a bunch of people living in this territory without having citizenship? That's just silly.

I took a look at the numbers on Wikipedia and I think you overstate the scope of the problem. Let us take a look at Estonia, the worst offender:

Knowledge of Estonian language, Constitution and a pledge of loyalty to Estonia were set as the conditions.[for obtaining citizenship] The government offers free preparation courses for the examination on the Constitution and the Citizenship Act, and reimburses up to 380 euros for language studies.
Under the law, residents without citizenship may not elect the Riigikogu (the national parliament) nor the European Parliament, but are eligible to vote in the municipal elections.[as it is in all of Europe]
Between 1992 and 2007 about 147,000 people acquired the citizenship, bringing the proportion of stateless residents from 32% down to about 8 percent.

8% is still a lot but it seems like if they want to obtain citizenship they can do so for pretty much the same conditions Germany expects of immigrants.

Latvia:

Knowledge of Latvian language and history was set as a condition for obtaining citizenship; these initial conditions have been relaxed thereafter. However, many Russians in Latvia still have alien status. As of January 2007, the majority of Latvia's ethnic Russians, 56.5% or 363,988 persons, had citizenship.[6]

Another issue of contention is the status of the Russian language. Russian today is defined to be a foreign language by the Law on State Language. Ethnic Russians and other Russian speakers have protested against plans to require 60% of the of secondary school subjects to be taught in the Latvian language. Some representatives of the Russian-speaking community in Latvia claim discrimination by the country's authorities with these calls frequently supported by Russia.

Anyone who legally (according to Soviet law) gained a residence in Latvia before the summer of 1992 was able to claim that residence upon Latvian independence, even if that legal basis included Soviet confiscation of property. Returning property owners seeking to reclaim their possessions were compensated with equal land elsewhere, with no recourse to reclaim the particular property itself, or with certificates which could be used as discount coupons in acquiring shares in privatized properties. The Latvian government also pays pensions to all resident retirees regardless of ethnicity or citizenship or non-citizen status.

This looks pretty bad, even worse than Estonia. Still, citizenship apparently can be achieved with language knowledge. On the face of it, not different from wanting to achieve citizenship in Germany and much less stringent that in the USA.

In contrast, Lithuania granted citizenship to all its residents at the time of independence redeclaration day willing to have it, without requiring them to learn Lithuanian.

Is Russian such a bad language that its users have to be shunned in the EU?

Russia is not an official language of the EU because Russia is not a part of the EU. Nor do 1.6 million ethnic Russians in the Baltic deserve to have their language recognized as an official one as they are just not that many. That would be like Hamburg demanding official language status.

If Russia were willing to join the EU (which I hope will eventually happen) that would change but right now they seem to be more content to do their own thing (for which there are many legitimate reasons not least being that Russia joining the EU might very well be completely impractical).

I think Yanukovich should face the guilllotine just as most post-Soviet "rulers" (make no mistake: hardly any are legitimate, most are just thugs who belong to prison at best). But I think exchanging a criminal for a pack of racists isn't a situation of "lesser evil", it's just a shitty situation, period.

I still think it is a preferable solution to either Russia intervening or the country erupting in real civil war but fair enough.

But before that some people believed that nationalists in Central Asia, whose views were so crazy it seemed they just crawled out from a cave, are a lesser evil too. I hope these people all just go to Turkmenistan or get some good old corrective group rapes and honor killings.

I am not sure if Central Asia is the best parallel here. Certainly the Ukrainian fascists seem to be more of the nationalist type instead of the corrective rape type which seems to be less of a problem in Europe than in Aisa in General.

I hope fascists fail. I sincerely do. But they're organized and popular, so...

I think that the elections will show how much power they will really get and how much support they have.

[Thanas]

Do you even understand how that fallacy works? Apparently not.

Don t worry for my intellectual abilities, i clearly understand how does it work and it is quite applicable here.

Evidently not.

We don t know exact percentage of fascists there, but it doesn t change anything- i ve watched a CRAPTON of translations from Maidan(almost all from yotube not news) - almost in every vid you can hear right wing motto and hails, and there is NO video without flags of right wing organizations. And i ve also read a lot of comments from people living in Ukraina and Kiev about how freakin much fascists are there.

And even if we assume that there are not many fascists- there are plenty of videos of fascist leaders speaking in front of Maidan and it is ok for everybody- Maidan actually hails them. People are ok with fascists being on Maidian. People are ok with fascists beating and tossing out left-wing maidan supporters.
Whatever number of fascist on Maidan is(and it is huge) people there support them. Deal. With. It.

FFS. Maidan is not the whole country but the radical fractions.

And you really think that EU integration is going to help? Do you think that Timoshenko as a president is going to bring democracy, wealth and stuff? She and all that opposition are absolutely same parts of Ukrainian corrupted oligarchy as Yanukovich.

Which is why they were not celebrating her speech in Lemberg for once. EU integration will at least help them with a higher standard of living which in itself discourage fascists.

I dont think that it is really worth it to continue debate - you just dismiss every source contradicting your position as "Kremlin propaganda" or another reason convenient for you. I can act in similar way and say that everything to contradict mine point of view is "Maidan-Nuland" or "Bendera-Tiagnibok" propaganda and this is not a way to debate.

Sure, except there is no precedent for German state news being controlled by fascists whereas there is ample president of Putin manipulating the media. Remember the archeology scandal?