Ukraine War Thread

[Irbis]

Well, i didnt want to concern this topic here but decided to say few words after all but still expect shit to be thrown at me.
I completely agree that people s rage and will to overthrow government in this particular way is completely justified - post soviet period is truly disastrous for Ukraine with severe economic decline and corrupted officials- i am not again all people from Maidan- i am against their leaders and their fashist dogs they barely control who are not better than Yanukovich at all.

Why? You're right. I'd support protests if there was any chance of common people improving their lot, but on one side of the protests, we have fascists, on the other, west ukrainian oligarchs. Neither cares for desperate people, just for power. Both are worse than Yanukowych, and I fail to see how the matters will change for the better. Witch hunts in the west had already begun.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg6Xv2YIcAEfwaK.jpg
What are those then?

According to Google image timeline, this was made 20 II. The day when live ammunition was allowed for the first time and the day of heaviest clashes as the right wingers tried to overrun police completely withdrawing from Maidan and were fired on in return. Only day where there is legitimate, independently confirmed sources of police shooting assault rifles.

I don't know if they were "provocators" as Maidan leaders claim, or just right wingers eager to attack enemy they saw as weak, but the fact is, they started the whole clash. Also, seeing your earlier claim there is no friendly fire, who exactly shot 40 policemen, killing several of them?

minister of ecology and natural resoures- from "Svoboda"
minister of culture- from svoboda
minister of education- svoboda
minister of judiciary- svoboda
Svoboda is the main right-wing-fascist party of Ukraine- advocate of Bendera and those who were serving Hitler during WW2 and openly admits it.
Glory to democracy and human rights

That actually is pretty good. They only got the judiciary and a few other uninmportant ministries. This clearly shows they are not the main party in power.

Non-important? Natural resources - money. Culture and education - rewriting public memory. Judiciary - police and courtrooms. How is that unimportant?

Also, cute name Svoboda had before 2004 - Social-National Party of Ukraine. Hmm. Must be a complete coincidence.

*laughs* Thanas, you have no fucking idea how power in post-Soviet states functions. You have zero fucking idea, admit it. Those aren't "states" in your understanding of the world nation-state, they are more like localized Turkmenias, where the judiciary and the ministry of culture can do very, very nasty things - from censorship to ethnic cleansing.

Even in much more democratic and law abiding countries of old Warsaw Pact, having judiciary can lead to very bad consequences down the road, just see Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Czech Republic. Here, Kaczynski, the guy who almost started customs and controls war with Germany, build his popularity and power base because someone clueless handed him judiciary in 2002. Don't remember 2005-2007? "Potatoes"? Toilet crisis in Weimar Triangle?

The vast majority of people are not fascists and they were not beating police. Right wingers did. The two are not the same.

So what? These 'majority' have nowhere to go. Only parties that will get to take part in elections will be fascists and west oligarchs like 'Bjuty Julia'. What they will do then, organize another protest? Against not disciplined Berkut, but rightist militia?

They don't control finance, defence, internal affairs, foreign office or the presidency. These are the big ticket items. What I see is a minority party within a coaliton, not the driving force some people try to make them out to be.

The presidency that lost most of its powers? Or bankrupt finance? Internal affairs? Please, they have their own militia and pogroms in the police force will make it worthless now anyway. If you look closely, you will also note they didn't touch any of the ministries that will be blamed for hardships now, to become even more popular.

Neither should other things but it is what it is. What do you prefer? Some period of nationalists or the government violently putting down an uprising of over two thirds of its citizens and starting a terror regime? Because it is pretty clear to me that one of the two are a lesser evil and it is not the latter.

More like half, and you might note no one considered violence until right wingers appeared on scene. Thanas, out of curiosity, would you support Republican uprising in USA trying to topple Obama from the South? Or AfD/Neonazi led uprising in Germany wanting to topple Merkel despite half of the länders staying silent? Say, people of the old DDR trying to coup d'etat BRD?

My mistake, I thought people living in a state hold citizenship of that state. The people do vote in the elections, right?

You know that some people hold two citizenships? And yes, it they choose Ukraine as their place of residence they can vote there. Sadly, no one in Maidan asked them for opinion. I'd have a laugh if silent majority reelected Region's Party, sadly, with new, "democratic" preselection and "proper" vote counting right people will surely win.

I just don't like the methods used here to subvert the will of the people.

Yes, it's not like EU/USA didn't offer bailout, too. By the way, did you found US envoy calling Ukrainian police and military officials threatening them with court if they even move acceptable, or not? Or is it 'Ukrainian sovereignity untouchable unless we get to break it'?

No, but the situations are hardly the same and I don't get why people insist they are.

What? You really don't see similarity between peaceful national mixing under both Jugoslavia and Russia, later exploding due to ethnic maps no longer matching arbitrary republic borders from 1945?

It is like people go "FASCISTS FASCISTS FASCISTS" and go into rabid attack mode without even acknowledging the possibility that they are just one of many parties represented and not the one which holds the most power.

Who is, then? Please, do name all the independent, EU-like parties missed by about everyone looking at the conflict? BYuT?

The Baltics have indeed problems with their Russian minorities and I wish both parties - including the Russians who are as obstinate as can be about anything the Baltics do to distance themselves from the soviet occupation - would be more reasonable. I should note that the EU general rights do extend to all people with EU citizenship.

Yeah, too bad Baltics purposefully declined to give citizenship to everyone they don't like, even if these people lived there for hundreds of years. Including, you know, Poles, who started to settle there with Polish-Lithuanian union in 1400s. Can you maybe explain to me why Polish (and just about every other one) minority deserves to be treated like they, too, were "occupants" in a way breaking about every EU law on minorities, with complete EU silence?

No and in the long run only Ukrainian nationalism might stop a breakup of the country, which might be for better in the long run anyway. But these are not the balkans. The Ukraininans are not suddenly going to genocide the Russian part of the population. Ukraine is not comprised of a dozen different tribes or ethnics vying for control. You got two dominant ethnics who are not uniform blocks.

No, Svoboda and other right wingers only has in its program etchnic cleansing of first Ukraine, then other abroad Ukrainian lands, like San river tributary in Poland and Byelorussia, continuing Volyn massacres. It's like there was a party in Turkey right now advocating invading Armenia and continuing Armenian genocide. That was explained already, BTW. For these people, EU is only supposed to be a fig leaf and a shield from Russia.

My mistake was in assuming that people who lived there when the Soviet Union finally keeled over and died were automatically given citizenship of the new states they were living in.

Fun fact - only about 2/3 of Estonia's inhabitants has citizenship, and that after 25 years of constant economic chicanes and pressure on the remaining 1/3 to go away to solve that "problem". EU rule of law in its finest!

The 8% you mention are people still completely without citizenship, reduction from 32% was by handing second grade citizenship, but everyone without proper name and perfect Estonian (so perfect most of normal Estonians wouldn't pass citizenship language exam...) is still shunned.

8% is still a lot but it seems like if they want to obtain citizenship they can do so for pretty much the same conditions Germany expects of immigrants.

Does a family that settled in Germany in 1700s qualify as 'immigrant'?

Russia is not an official language of the EU because Russia is not a part of the EU. Nor do 1.6 million ethnic Russians in the Baltic deserve to have their language recognized as an official one as they are just not that many. That would be like Hamburg demanding official language status.

Gee, EU should revoke it for the Estonians (1.1 mln), Latvians (1.2 mln), Maltese (0.3 mln), and Slovenians (2 mln) then. Oh, wait, these are not Hamburgs for some very convoluted reason, am I right?

Also, there are 3.5 mln people speaking Russian in Germany, and 6-7 mln in entire EU, which makes it more popular than 3/4 of EU languages, but hey, Hamburgs!

Sure, except there is no precedent for German state news being controlled by fascists

No, they just eat about every pro-Maidan and anti-Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker.

[K. A. Pital]

Disagree. Both eastern and western poltiicans have called for the country to be kept together. I don't see anybody from the east advocating splitting up the country.

So you have completely ignored the people in Crimea. That's telling. Corrupt politicians from the East might soon lose their shot at representing their people, in Crimea they already did - the Kiev-appointed official was deposed.

My mistake was in assuming that people who lived there when the Soviet Union finally keeled over and died were automatically given citizenship of the new states they were living in. As for immigrants after the liberation of the eastern countries I apparently was underestimating just how many Russians wanted to get out of their own state, my mistake as well.

Russians never assumed their state would shrink rapidly, leaving them exposed to ethnic tensions and often unable to return (since Russia was bankrupted by the oligarchs and wouldn't provide a shred of assistance to repatriates).

As if the situations are comparable...

They are. One ethnicity saw the other as enemies, as having a history of opression and collaboration with Western colonialism. Then bloodbath ensued.

8% is still a lot but it seems like if they want to obtain citizenship they can do so for pretty much the same conditions Germany expects of immigrants. ... This looks pretty bad, even worse than Estonia. Still, citizenship apparently can be achieved with language knowledge. On the face of it, not different from wanting to achieve citizenship in Germany and much less stringent that in the USA.

You grant the rights to citizenship to a person who has lived in Germany for 8 years even without a shred of language knowledge, yet you say that citizenship can't be acquired by people who lived their entire life there, quite possibly were born there. I know the problem is slowly being solved in Estonia, but one of my colleagues was a "non-cititzen" most of his life, and he is very cynical about the system. He was born in Latvia. But no birthright, unlike the USA, and no amount of living in the country gives you citizenship, I find this kind of cruel.

Nor do 1.6 million ethnic Russians in the Baltic deserve to have their language recognized as an official one as they are just not that many. That would be like Hamburg demanding official language status.

Hamburg doesn't have a language. Russians do. But I see you point. If there's very few people, it's cool to discriminate, so the shunned minority should aim to increase their numbers until they can demand stuff like Sharia courts and other staples of official recognition.

I think that the elections will show how much power they will really get and how much support they have.

I think that the elections will be a split pretty much like they were before, and hardcore nationalists will get overwhelming support in the West. Will you allow a part of the country to rule over the other part that wants nothing to do with it?

Yeah, too bad Baltics purposefully declined to give citizenship to everyone they don't like, even if these people lived there for hundreds of years. Including, you know, Poles, who started to settle there with Polish-Lithuanian union in 1400s. Can you maybe explain to me why Polish (and just about every other one) minority deserves to be treated like they, too, were "occupants" in a way breaking about every EU law on minorities, with complete EU silence?

Thanks for reminding me about that. I'm sure Poland will also be very happy about people who think Volyn massacres were completely justified in the process of "nation building" coming to power right next to them.

[Thanas]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg6Xv2YIcAEfwaK.jpg
What are those then?

According to Google image timeline, this was made 20 II. The day when live ammunition was allowed for the first time and the day of heaviest clashes as the right wingers tried to overrun police completely withdrawing from Maidan and were fired on in return. Only day where there is legitimate, independently confirmed sources of police shooting assault rifles.

Sure, but the point was that apparently they were not just armed with rubber bullets as Iron Star claimed.

I don't know if they were "provocators" as Maidan leaders claim, or just right wingers eager to attack enemy they saw as weak, but the fact is, they started the whole clash. Also, seeing your earlier claim there is no friendly fire, who exactly shot 40 policemen, killing several of them?

I would expect them to have been shot at by radicals or fascists considering we got pictures of those people firing revolvers and other weapons, some of which I linked to on this very board.

Non-important? Natural resources - money. Culture and education - rewriting public memory. Judiciary - police and courtrooms. How is that unimportant?

Also, cute name Svoboda had before 2004 - Social-National Party of Ukraine. Hmm. Must be a complete coincidence.

I am saying they are less important than the other ministries they did not get. Do you disagree that finance, foreign policy, Internal ministry, defence and the presidency themselves are more important?

Even in much more democratic and law abiding countries of old Warsaw Pact, having judiciary can lead to very bad consequences down the road, just see Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Czech Republic. Here, Kaczynski, the guy who almost started customs and controls war with Germany, build his popularity and power base because someone clueless handed him judiciary in 2002. Don't remember 2005-2007? "Potatoes"? Toilet crisis in Weimar Triangle?

Yes. The concern is there. The fascists will not suddenly become nice people because they got power. But if the alternative is a civil war with both the EU and Russia getting involved then I would think having a fascist (at least temporarily until the next elections) justice minister is preferrable.

So what? These 'majority' have nowhere to go. Only parties that will get to take part in elections will be fascists and west oligarchs like 'Bjuty Julia'. What they will do then, organize another protest? Against not disciplined Berkut, but rightist militia?

If the east does not get the chance to have their own candidate, then that is concerning. Where do you get that information from?

The presidency that lost most of its powers? Or bankrupt finance? Internal affairs? Please, they have their own militia and pogroms in the police force will make it worthless now anyway. If you look closely, you will also note they didn't touch any of the ministries that will be blamed for hardships now, to become even more popular.

That interpretation is a fair one, I can't disagree with it. But the presidency still is important simply for calling the shots in the negotiations and I doubt the fascists will be able to imprint the whole country with their ideology. Considering how many police forces have switched sides in the west I doubt it is as simple as the police will just be fascist.

More like half, and you might note no one considered violence until right wingers appeared on scene.

Well, and Janukovitch trying to dissolve the protests. I am not sure the right wingers are to blame more than the security forces here but would be willing to change that stance if it can be shown that they initiated the violence.

Thanas, out of curiosity, would you support Republican uprising in USA trying to topple Obama from the South? Or AfD/Neonazi led uprising in Germany wanting to topple Merkel despite half of the länders staying silent? Say, people of the old DDR trying to coup d'etat BRD?

No, as neither Obama nor Merkel are going against the clear will of the people in a matter that will decide the whole future of the country.

You know that some people hold two citizenships? And yes, it they choose Ukraine as their place of residence they can vote there. Sadly, no one in Maidan asked them for opinion. I'd have a laugh if silent majority reelected Region's Party, sadly, with new, "democratic" preselection and "proper" vote counting right people will surely win.

Assuming there is a silent majority, AFAIK over 70% of Ukrainians wanted to associate with the EU. That seems to have been what set up the whole mess. I can't see the majority of Ukrainians supporting a party that is firmly against what most of them want the most.

Yes, it's not like EU/USA didn't offer bailout, too.

Well, now they do but Putin pretty much offered way more according to this article in the start.

By the way, did you found US envoy calling Ukrainian police and military officials threatening them with court if they even move acceptable, or not? Or is it 'Ukrainian sovereignity untouchable unless we get to break it'?

Well, it is a fine line between "respecting sovereignty" and "watching atrocities happen". I should point out that I am not a fan of US cowboy diplomacy in general, as you very well know. But I don't have enough information on this conversation to accurately judge what happened, can you link me more?

What? You really don't see similarity between peaceful national mixing under both Jugoslavia and Russia, later exploding due to ethnic maps no longer matching arbitrary republic borders from 1945?

No, because the mixing was hardly peaceful in the first place (lest people forget that when Stalin started his "internal colonization" program the territories targeted were occupied by the Soviet Army even though they had previously been independent.

Who is, then? Please, do name all the independent, EU-like parties missed by about everyone looking at the conflict? BYuT?

Udar seesm to be the most hopeful one, whereas the Fatherland party seems to be pro EU but somewhat beset by corruption (may just be the western version of the Oligarchs but at least they support EU integration).

Yeah, too bad Baltics purposefully declined to give citizenship to everyone they don't like, even if these people lived there for hundreds of years. Including, you know, Poles, who started to settle there with Polish-Lithuanian union in 1400s. Can you maybe explain to me why Polish (and just about every other one) minority deserves to be treated like they, too, were "occupants" in a way breaking about every EU law on minorities, with complete EU silence?

Can you link me to more info here? Are they exempt from getting citizenship?

No, Svoboda and other right wingers only has in its program etchnic cleansing of first Ukraine, then other abroad Ukrainian lands, like San river tributary in Poland and Byelorussia, continuing Volyn massacres. It's like there was a party in Turkey right now advocating invading Armenia and continuing Armenian genocide. That was explained already, BTW. For these people, EU is only supposed to be a fig leaf and a shield from Russia.

Yes. But they don't seem to be supported by more than 10 or 15% of the people.

Fun fact - only about 2/3 of Estonia's inhabitants has citizenship, and that after 25 years of constant economic chicanes and pressure on the remaining 1/3 to go away to solve that "problem". EU rule of law in its finest!

The 8% you mention are people still completely without citizenship, reduction from 32% was by handing second grade citizenship, but everyone without proper name and perfect Estonian (so perfect most of normal Estonians wouldn't pass citizenship language exam...) is still shunned.

Please link me more here.

Does a family that settled in Germany in 1700s qualify as 'immigrant'?

Assuming they never acquired citizenship by any of the legal means available they would, yes.

Gee, EU should revoke it for the Estonians (1.1 mln), Latvians (1.2 mln), Maltese (0.3 mln), and Slovenians (2 mln) then. Oh, wait, these are not Hamburgs for some very convoluted reason, am I right?

No the reason is easy. Those are sovereign nations in their own right who joined the EU. Russia did not.

Also, there are 3.5 mln people speaking Russian in Germany, and 6-7 mln in entire EU, which makes it more popular than 3/4 of EU languages, but hey, Hamburgs!

The 3.5 mil speaking Russian in Germany are also not comparable as Russian is not their primary means of conversation for the vast majority of them (rather they learned it in school under the communist dictatorships).

No, they just eat about every pro-Maidan and anti-Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Like?

Disagree. Both eastern and western poltiicans have called for the country to be kept together. I don't see anybody from the east advocating splitting up the country.

So you have completely ignored the people in Crimea. That's telling.

That was only reported here yesterday evening. I am well aware of them and their parade in Sewastopol (waving Russian and Soviet flags instead of Ukraininan ones is telling as well).

Corrupt politicians from the East might soon lose their shot at representing their people, in Crimea they already did - the Kiev-appointed official was deposed.

That is good.

Russians never assumed their state would shrink rapidly, leaving them exposed to ethnic tensions and often unable to return (since Russia was bankrupted by the oligarchs and wouldn't provide a shred of assistance to repatriates).

That is a shitty situation. They have my sympathies.

They are. One ethnicity saw the other as enemies, as having a history of opression and collaboration with Western colonialism. Then bloodbath ensued.

But the Ukraine is not beset by numerous tribes. I mean, we have resolved differences between two dominant ethnicities in their countries in the past peacefully, either by splitting it up (Slowakia, Czech) or by creating special provisions for the troubled ones (virtually every country in Europe with ethnicities, see Belgium, Denmark/Germany, Northern Italy, Basque territories).

You grant the rights to citizenship to a person who has lived in Germany for 8 years even without a shred of language knowledge

No we do not. Relevant portion of the law (section 10):

(1) A foreigner who has been legally ordinarily resident in Germany for eight years and possesses legal capacity pursuant to Section 80 of the Residence Act or has a legal representative shall be naturalized upon application if he or she
1. confirms his or her commitment to the free democratic constitutional system enshrined in the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany and declares that he or she does not pursue or support and has never pursued or supported any activities
a) aimed at subverting the free democratic constitutional system, the existence or security of the Federation or a Land or
b) aimed at illegally impeding the constitutional bodies of the Federation or a Land or the members of said bodies in discharging their duties or
c) any activities which jeopardize foreign interests of the Federal Republic of Germany through the use of violence or preparatory actions for the use of violence,
or credibly asserts that he or she has distanced himself or herself from the former pursuit or support of such activities,
2. has been granted a permanent right of residence or as a national of Switzerland or as a family member of a national of Switzerland possesses a residence permit on the basis of the Agreement of 21 June 1999 between the European
Community and its Member States on the one hand and the Swiss Confederation on the other hand on the free movement of persons or possesses an EU Blue Card or a residence permit for purposes other than those specified in Sections 16, 17, 20, 22, 23, sub-section 1, Section 23a, 24 and Section 25, sub-sections 3 to 5 of the Residence Act.
3. is able to ensure his or her own subsistence and the subsistence of his or her dependents without recourse to benefits in accordance with Book Two or Book Twelve of the Social Code or recourse to such benefits is due to conditions beyond his or her control,
4. gives up or loses his or her previous citizenship,
5. has not been sentenced for an unlawful act and is not subject to any court order imposing a measure of reform and prevention due to a lack of criminal capacity,
6. possesses an adequate knowledge of German and
7. possesses knowledge of the legal system, society and living conditions in Germany.

The other naturalization you are talking about is discretionary naturalization which is no entitlement and depends basically on the goodwill of the deciding authority. The one outlined above is supposed to be the norm iirc.

, yet you say that citizenship can't be acquired by people who lived their entire life there, quite possibly were born there. I know the problem is slowly being solved in Estonia, but one of my colleagues was a "non-cititzen" most of his life, and he is very cynical about the system. He was born in Latvia. But no birthright, unlike the USA, and no amount of living in the country gives you citizenship, I find this kind of cruel.

It is. I think it can only be explained by an overreaction to the history of Soviet occupation and colonization but again, that is no justification. Still, their fears are somewhat justified considering how Putin routinely tries to bully them and tries to influence them by somewhat questionable means (consider the situation with Lithuania and the refinery deal).

Hamburg doesn't have a language.

It does, native to over 3 million people. Yet it does not deserve to be its own EU recognized language considering the state is making sure it dies out.

Russians do. But I see you point. If there's very few people, it's cool to discriminate, so the shunned minority should aim to increase their numbers until they can demand stuff like Sharia courts and other staples of official recognition.

Yes indeed, that is the only way to get recognition.

I think that the elections will be a split pretty much like they were before, and hardcore nationalists will get overwhelming support in the West. Will you allow a part of the country to rule over the other part that wants nothing to do with it?

It doesn't matter much what I will allow as I don't have any power. But first, I think UDAR and Fatherland will put up bigger numbers than the fascists. With regards to the east, I would have no problem if they wanted to split and join Russia, judging by their flags they seem to prefer Putin to the Ukraine anyway.

[Thanas]

BTW, this article is pretty good regarding the powers in the Ukraine. Seems the oligarchs decided to support the protest parties as they did not want a civil war. If they manage to maintain power it might very well be that the robber barons will still control everything in the background.

Another good read is this interview with Steinmeier though of course he talks a lot of diplomatic talk.

Meanwhile, this is a rather pessimistic point of view showing it a s a game of chess between greater powers. (And Brzezinski is insane but then again we already knew that).

[K. A. Pital]

I am saying they are less important than the other ministries they did not get. Do you disagree that finance, foreign policy, Internal ministry, defence and the presidency themselves are more important?

If you are discussing that national-socialists got "less important ministries" in your government, something is clearly wrong. I remember a time when being a "national-socialist" wasn't cool at all.

But if the alternative is a civil war with both the EU and Russia getting involved then I would think having a fascist (at least temporarily until the next elections) justice minister is preferrable.

Didn't we go through this with the Yugoslav nationalists already? Sure, they can stay there "temporarily". Bloodbath will come in time.

If the east does not get the chance to have their own candidate, then that is concerning. Where do you get that information from?

Which "candidate", Thanas? Where's a single politician from the East? Oh right none. Corrupt assholes who said they'd represent "the East" folded like a house of cards. The candidates that are supported by people are branded "dangerous separatists" and arrest warrants are being placed on them on orders from Kiev. In the end "Eastern resistance" will be crushed by the very same police, and this will be buttressed by "civil militias" from the West that would do their best to keep the East under control.

That interpretation is a fair one, I can't disagree with it. But the presidency still is important simply for calling the shots in the negotiations and I doubt the fascists will be able to imprint the whole country with their ideology. Considering how many police forces have switched sides in the west I doubt it is as simple as the police will just be fascist.

Presidency with a 2004 constitution is irrelevant unless the President intends to revoke it like Bandukovich did. Besides, police offices weren't looted for nothing: criminal cases were burned, so now there's no evidence to prosecute any fascist leaders for anything. It's pretty much a carte blanche for another round of violence.

No, as neither Obama nor Merkel are going against the clear will of the people in a matter that will decide the whole future of the country.

Obama and Merkel lied to their people and wiretapped them to hell. They hold the people for cattle (and rightly so - these well-fed morons aren't good for more than a limp hundred folks who genuinely care about civil liberties, the rest are just pathetic weaklings from Niemoller's saying).

I can't see the majority of Ukrainians supporting a party that is firmly against what most of them want the most.

West controls more territory and population; East controls more industry. The former Donetsk Republic that was dissolved by Lenin forcibly to make what is now "Ukraine" would not want into the EU because that would annihilate its industries.

Well, now they do but Putin pretty much offered way more according to this article in the start.

Note he's still offering that money *laughs* and crying about 'territorial integrity of Ukraine'. If anything, he's just being pathetic.

No, because the mixing was hardly peaceful in the first place (lest people forget that when Stalin started his "internal colonization" program the territories targeted were occupied by the Soviet Army even though they had previously been independent.

What "mixing"? There are hardly any Russians in the West of Ukraine; even if they are, they've been "Ukrainized" already. That's why the West is so monolithic. The East of Ukraine was a part of Russia for ages. What the hell does this have to do with Stalin? If anything, they should blame Lenin for liquidating the Donetsk Republic and making its territories a part of "Ukraine".

Yes. But they don't seem to be supported by more than 10 or 15% of the people.

And they get half of the government. What this means: 10 or 15% of people with an organized and well-mobilized armed wing can dictate their will to a country with over 40 million people. What they say: one of the reasons for "Svoboda" actively participating in the protest was Ukraine agreeing to help Poland on investigating the Volyn massacre. What a noble reason!

The 3.5 mil speaking Russian in Germany are also not comparable as Russian is not their primary means of conversation for the vast majority of them (rather they learned it in school under the communist dictatorships).

Oh, okay. So you think that people who repatriate from Russia all start speaking German immediately after returning to Germany. There's no such thing as Russian Germans! Those don't exist, and if they want to speak their language primarily, they should have their citizenship rights revoked, is that what you're saying? Because I want to be clear on that matter. Do you support revoking German citizenship for foreigners that naturalized here without knowing the language (despite the current regulations, it was possible before) or Russian Germans that were repatriated under the BVFG but keep Russian as their main conversation language?

That was only reported here yesterday evening. I am well aware of them and their parade in Sewastopol (waving Russian and Soviet flags instead of Ukraininan ones is telling as well).

Now you're just being obtuse. They weren't just "waving" Russian flags. They tore down Ukrainian flags from the government buildings and put up Russian flags. Guess why? Because they think they're Russian. They don't identify themselves with the failed state that is Ukraine. Maybe Russia is also a failed state, but they seem to ethnically and culturally belong there, and not to the "ukrainized" future that the West of Ukraine is planning for the entire country.

But the Ukraine is not beset by numerous tribes. I mean, we have resolved differences between two dominant ethnicities in their countries in the past peacefully, either by splitting it up (Slowakia, Czech) or by creating special provisions for the troubled ones (virtually every country in Europe with ethnicities, see Belgium, Denmark/Germany, Northern Italy, Basque territories).

Crimean Tatars, Russians, Ukrainians and Poles. That's quite a few. The "peacefulness" when referring to Spain and Basque territories makes me cringe, Thanas. A pack of fascists helped by a pack of Nazis maintained the "territorial integrity of Spain" on these now-forgotten days.

With regards to the east, I would have no problem if they wanted to split and join Russia, judging by their flags they seem to prefer Putin to the Ukraine anyway.

Well that's good we don't have a double standard. Frankly, I know that German B1 wasn't a strict demand before; I guess they have made the rules more strict to make sure people actually speak the language, but many still don't. Do you think their citizenship should be revoked?

[Thanas]

If you are discussing that national-socialists got "less important ministries" in your government, something is clearly wrong. I remember a time when being a "national-socialist" wasn't cool at all.

+

Yes, everyone gets that fascism is bad. Everyone.

What do you want us to do to better it? Invade the Ukraine and kill thousands of fascists? Because that is the only way there will not be fascists there. If your only solution is "fascists are bad" and you repeat that ad nauseam nothing will get accomplished there except a civil war. I think Europe has an opportunity and a duty to help the democratic forces there, whoever wins the election (which will not be fascist).

Didn't we go through this with the Yugoslav nationalists already? Sure, they can stay there "temporarily". Bloodbath will come in time.

They are not going to attack the Russian east. First of all, they don't have the forces and second, they don't want Russia to intervene.

So what are you really fearing here?

Which "candidate", Thanas?

Given how registration has just opened, maybe you should wait and see who will stand for election from the east?

Where's a single politician from the East? Oh right none. Corrupt assholes who said they'd represent "the East" folded like a house of cards. The candidates that are supported by people are branded "dangerous separatists" and arrest warrants are being placed on them on orders from Kiev. In the end "Eastern resistance" will be crushed by the very same police, and this will be buttressed by "civil militias" from the West that would do their best to keep the East under control.

Link?

Besides, police offices weren't looted for nothing: criminal cases were burned, so now there's no evidence to prosecute any fascist leaders for anything. It's pretty much a carte blanche for another round of violence.

One does not follow the other. It also means that jailed opposition leaders get free.

Obama and Merkel lied to their people and wiretapped them to hell. They hold the people for cattle (and rightly so - these well-fed morons aren't good for more than a limp hundred folks who genuinely care about civil liberties, the rest are just pathetic weaklings from Niemoller's saying).

Wiretapping does not decide the future of a country and it is absurd to think this is even on the same level as the future orientation of a whole country.

West controls more territory and population; East controls more industry. The former Donetsk Republic that was dissolved by Lenin forcibly to make what is now "Ukraine" would not want into the EU because that would annihilate its industries.

That does not in any way refute my argument.

Note he's still offering that money *laughs* and crying about 'territorial integrity of Ukraine'. If anything, he's just being pathetic.

First, that article was written before the riots. Second, I wouldn't take Putin lightly. He is a very capable tactician when it comes to bringing people to heel.

What "mixing"? There are hardly any Russians in the West of Ukraine; even if they are, they've been "Ukrainized" already. That's why the West is so monolithic. The East of Ukraine was a part of Russia for ages. What the hell does this have to do with Stalin? If anything, they should blame Lenin for liquidating the Donetsk Republic and making its territories a part of "Ukraine".

The mixing was regarding the Baltic countries, I think you got a bit confused there.

And they get half of the government. What this means: 10 or 15% of people with an organized and well-mobilized armed wing can dictate their will to a country with over 40 million people.

I don't think it is quite that clear cut. Consider that Timoshenko has refused the help of the fascists in the past when it comes to rallies etc....I think it all depends on the election results. If they find no coalition partner then the only way they get what they want is through violence. Which might not work without the support of a broad consensus among the populace.

What they say: one of the reasons for "Svoboda" actively participating in the protest was Ukraine agreeing to help Poland on investigating the Volyn massacre. What a noble reason!

Yes, fascists are bad. We know this already.

Oh, okay. So you think that people who repatriate from Russia all start speaking German immediately after returning to Germany. There's no such thing as Russian Germans! Those don't exist, and if they want to speak their language primarily, they should have their citizenship rights revoked, is that what you're saying?

Get lost. Are you incapable of discussing anything without resulting to ridiculous strawmen?

First, let us discuss the numbers. Of the alleged 3.5 mil Russian speakers you claimed the following numbers can be shown:

Kazakstan (926.367 Personen)
Russia (699.395)
Poland (206.846)
Romania (187.925)
Kyrgizistan,(73.807)
Ukraine (41.198.

Source: http://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-u ... aussiedler

Of those, I highly doubt the Poles and Romanians speak Russian as their primary language. I doubt this also applies to all from Kazakstan and Kyrgizistan, but for the sake of Argument let us assume it does so (for Ukraine lets assume a 50/50 split). So we got at most ~1.7 mil at most of people who spoke primary Russian. That also assumes that their children primarily and exclusively speak Russian even today, which is a laughable claim for anyone who knows any Russian Germans (In fact I am living with several right now). Considering all of that it is very unlikely that more than 1 mil only speak Russian (and that assumes that nearly all adults never learn German, whcih is also false).

As to them, they should learn German. If they cannot do so for whatever reason then the state should be required to get them translators (which it does). I just don't see the need for Russian to become an official language. State agencies already translate some of the more basic things, but I don't see for example the courts ever being required to accept Russian. Nor should they for it would cause too much confusion.

Because I want to be clear on that matter. Do you support revoking German citizenship for foreigners that naturalized here without knowing the language (despite the current regulations, it was possible before) or Russian Germans that were repatriated under the BVFG but keep Russian as their main conversation language?

Of course not. This is getting absurd.

Now you're just being obtuse. They weren't just "waving" Russian flags. They tore down Ukrainian flags from the government buildings and put up Russian flags. Guess why? Because they think they're Russian. They don't identify themselves with the failed state that is Ukraine. Maybe Russia is also a failed state, but they seem to ethnically and culturally belong there, and not to the "ukrainized" future that the West of Ukraine is planning for the entire country.[/quot€]

So let them go to Russia then or split up and join Russia. Fact is they want to dominate the West and are now getting pissy because the majority of Ukrainians does not want to be ruled by a minority of Russians.

Crimean Tatars, Russians, Ukrainians and Poles. That's quite a few.

It is a few but there are no ethnic divisions on the same magnitude. You don't have, for example, the Crimean Tatars attacking Russians or vice versa. Poles and Ukrainians are not firebombing each other.

The "peacefulness" when referring to Spain and Basque territories makes me cringe, Thanas. A pack of fascists helped by a pack of Nazis maintained the "territorial integrity of Spain" on these now-forgotten days.

Well, it is peaceful since the EU integration. There are isolated terrorist bombings from ETA for sure but on the whole the population is not more in rebellion than other regions (compared to Catalonia they are probably even less seperatist). And I thought you know history better than to think Franco is in any way comparable to the way the EU handles their stuff.

Well that's good we don't have a double standard. Frankly, I know that German B1 wasn't a strict demand before; I guess they have made the rules more strict to make sure people actually speak the language, but many still don't.

If you refer to Russian Germans they are a special case due to alleged blood ties (pretty ridiculous after 300 years of living in a country I don't see why they are not Russians instead of Germans but there is also the argument that they kept their traditions which I am not qualified to judge) and because they were (or so they claim) oppressed by the Soviet Union.

But the basic requirements apply to all immigrants. There was an immensely stupid debate about if citizen applicants should know German (due to the bad situation in our schools where you'd get classes where a third spoke little to no German) and express their loyalty to the German constitution (which was a crypto way of saying "we don't trust muslims") after 9/11.

Do you think their citizenship should be revoked?

The ones in the east? Depends. If the region splits and joins Russia then yes, if the region stays a part of Ukraine then it would be beyond ridiculous to revoke their citizenship. I don't think you should force people to be part of a state they have no stake or interest in, at the same time I don't believe you should keep the citizenship if you join another state that is less than friendly or with whom there are no association treaties (like in the EU).

[Thanas]

Forgot to add a paragraph so I edited the above message.

[K. A. Pital]

What do you want us to do to better it? Invade the Ukraine and kill thousands of fascists? Because that is the only way there will not be fascists there. If your only solution is "fascists are bad" and you repeat that ad nauseam nothing will get accomplished there except a civil war. I think Europe has an opportunity and a duty to help the democratic forces there, whoever wins the election (which will not be fascist).

Invade Ukraine? Thanks. No. Leave the West be as fascist as they like. Just let the East or Crimea go if they so desire. I think Europe doesn't have a right to call itself a real anti-fascist force, considering you had open facists ruling some states well into the 70s. I also think that giving money to the West is fine. That will keep them less prone to fascist extremism; fascism rises when poverty and governmental collapse are present. Eastern Europe was saved from rapid rise of fascism by EU transfers, although the slow creep continues in many nations.

They are not going to attack the Russian east. First of all, they don't have the forces and second, they don't want Russia to intervene. So what are you really fearing here?

Thanas, the only real Russian territories are Crimean, and those can be attacked. It takes a few thousand paramilitary folks to run an ethnic cleansing campaign. No official sanctions, nothing. Just like the Yugoslav cleansings started well before any official military movements, and intensified once the forces started moving here and there.

EDIT: Leader of "Svoboda" O. Tyagnibok on his Party's assembly said that the party will dispatch paramilitary units to quell the uprising in Crimea, since the Rada isn't quick enough to act. Well, sad how it seems to happen in real time.

Link?

How about the guy who was chosen in Sevastopol? The SBU tried to arrest him just yesterday (but failed).
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... sian-mayor
What they say in the end, about "rumors" - actually the rumors were true, there was a warrant. The police then burned this warrant after the crowds forced the local parliament to legitimize their candidate.

Wiretapping does not decide the future of a country and it is absurd to think this is even on the same level as the future orientation of a whole country.

Isn't the creation of a global Stasi at least a noteworthy matter, perhaps even more important than the future of a small European country? No; according to you it's nothing, it's absurd to think about it as "future of the country". I get it. When democratic governments install Orwellian surveillance, they have full rights to do so.

That does not in any way refute my argument.

Your argument about what? That West and East are split and West has more people, so it wants to the EU and presents this as "the whole nation"?

First, that article was written before the riots. Second, I wouldn't take Putin lightly. He is a very capable tactician when it comes to bringing people to heel.

I was against Putin in a place where being against Putin and his goons can get you a one-way ticket to the other side a long, long time ago. I learned to read the Russian agitprop very carefully.

Consider that Timoshenko has refused the help of the fascists in the past when it comes to rallies etc....I think it all depends on the election results. If they find no coalition partner then the only way they get what they want is through violence. Which might not work without the support of a broad consensus among the populace.

I know - Julia was just a corrupt politician, that's why the right wingers said "Zeka get" and now they say "Zechku get" which means - remove the criminal and the female criminal. Julia was going to take control of the Maidan - that attempt failed. The "Right Sector" told her: go take some medicine in Germany, come back in five years. Guess what? She's off to Germany. You don't mess with armed people who control the Parliament and check your documents upon arrival.

So we got at most ~1.7 mil at most of people who spoke primary Russian. That also assumes that their children primarily and exclusively speak Russian even today, which is a laughable claim for anyone who knows any Russian Germans (In fact I am living with several right now). Considering all of that it is very unlikely that more than 1 mil only speak Russian.

It is unlikely, but so what? You think that compactness and having your national state is what matters. So if Russians want to have their language recognized, they would have to carve out a piece of the EU nations (like the Baltics), is that right? Then they'll have a sovereign state - just like Kosovo! - and be recognized by Europe, and their language would be recognized too. Or not?

So let them go to Russia then or split up and join Russia. Fact is they want to dominate the West and are now getting pissy because the majority of Ukrainians does not want to be ruled by a minority of Russians.

You're seriosly in cuckoo land if you think Crimea wants to control Halicia or "the West". It's an Autonomous Republic with heavy separatist leanings. It has been that way since 1991. There's no way Crimea or some parts of the South-East that might be brave enough to risk revolt could "control" the ethnically monolithic West, heavily infused with fascist paramilitaries. It was barely kept under control in Soviet times, when it was flooded with money just to stop them from rebelling. Not a single person in the East thinks it is possible to "control" the West of Ukraine. They fear the West controlling them.

You don't have, for example, the Crimean Tatars attacking Russians or vice versa. Poles and Ukrainians are not firebombing each other.

Actually Crimean Tatars are attacking Russians and vice versa. Sad as it is. Like I said, bad blood is bad blood. Poles and Ukrainians aren't, but it seems some Jewish synagogues are either firebombed already or will be in a very short while.

And I thought you know history better than to think Franco is in any way comparable to the way the EU handles their stuff.

I know that now Europe is different; but Franco isn't some super-remote history. Just like in case of Halicia, which had nothing to do with Russia prior to 1939. Just like in case of Crimea and the very South-East, which had nothing to do with "Ukraine" or worse yet, Austria-Hungary.

because they were (or so they claim) oppressed by the Soviet Union.

What the fuck? You don't know that Volga Germans were deported internally in the USSR pretty much like Japanese were in the USA, except their ordeal lasted way longer, like for 10 years? How can you say "so they claim", are you even a historian at all?

The ones in the east? Depends. If the region splits and joins Russia then yes, if the region stays a part of Ukraine then it would be beyond ridiculous to revoke their citizenship. I don't think you should force people to be part of a state they have no stake or interest in, at the same time I don't believe you should keep the citizenship if you join another state that is less than friendly or with whom there are no association treaties (like in the EU).

I was asking about Germany, but you already said no to that. As for Crimea - yes, if they split I think they shouldn't keep Ukrainian citizenship and get the Russian one. Which many are already doing - Russians started issuing passports to these people. Doesn't this remind you of something? Like, South Ossetia, where 50% of the population got Russian passports? You were so keen to explain to me how Ukraine is a lot different from Yugoslavia. I see little difference between Karabakh, Georgia, Uzbek-Tajik ethnic cleansing and some Yugoslav ones. If anything, the process is well underway. Splitting peacefully may be the lesser evil, but note how now the EU says territorial integrity of Ukraine has to be respected.

[Thanas]

Invade Ukraine? Thanks. No. Leave the West be as fascist as they like. Just let the East or Crimea go if they so desire. I think Europe doesn't have a right to call itself a real anti-fascist force, considering you had open facists ruling some states well into the 70s. I also think that giving money to the West is fine. That will keep them less prone to fascist extremism; fascism rises when poverty and governmental collapse are present. Eastern Europe was saved from rapid rise of fascism by EU transfers, although the slow creep continues in many nations.

I think we are in agreement here.

Thanas, the only real Russian territories are Crimean,

I would think the east is as much Russian as the Crimea is.

and those can be attacked.

With the whole Russian black seas fleet there? No way.

It takes a few thousand paramilitary folks to run an ethnic cleansing campaign. No official sanctions, nothing. Just like the Yugoslav cleansings started well before any official military movements, and intensified once the forces started moving here and there.

The Yugoslav cleansings were also condoned by the state with no other armed forces being present to intervene. The situation is not the same as in the Ukraine. Do you really think the Russian divisions and the Russian fleet will do nothing? I think the fascists do not dare to intervene.

How about the guy who was chosen in Sevastopol? The SBU tried to arrest him just yesterday (but failed).
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... sian-mayor
What they say in the end, about "rumors" - actually the rumors were true, there was a warrant. The police then burned this warrant after the crowds forced the local parliament to legitimize their candidate.

The link doesn't say anything about the SBU just that local police threatened not to carry out any orders issued from Kiev. As to the other things you mention they don't say anything about a warrant being issued. BTW, I fail to see how this is any different from mobs gaining control in the west.

Isn't the creation of a global Stasi at least a noteworthy matter, perhaps even more important than the future of a small European country? No; according to you it's nothing, it's absurd to think about it as "future of the country". I get it. When democratic governments install Orwellian surveillance, they have full rights to do so.

Get off it, you are starting to sound hysterical. I might just as well point to this.

Your argument about what? That West and East are split and West has more people, so it wants to the EU and presents this as "the whole nation"?

No, my argument that they will not reelect the regions party in the west. Which you seemed to disagree with by saying

West controls more territory and population; East controls more industry. The former Donetsk Republic that was dissolved by Lenin forcibly to make what is now "Ukraine" would not want into the EU because that would annihilate its industries.

I know - Julia was just a corrupt politician, that's why the right wingers said "Zeka get" and now they say "Zechku get" which means - remove the criminal and the female criminal. Julia was going to take control of the Maidan - that attempt failed. The "Right Sector" told her: go take some medicine in Germany, come back in five years. Guess what? She's off to Germany. You don't mess with armed people who control the Parliament and check your documents upon arrival.

Hmmm. That is a new interpretation of her arriving in Germany. Got a link for that? All the reports I read is that she is in Germany to get treatment (she seemed in pain) and that she wants to meet Merkel.

It is unlikely, but so what? You think that compactness and having your national state is what matters. So if Russians want to have their language recognized, they would have to carve out a piece of the EU nations (like the Baltics), is that right? Then they'll have a sovereign state - just like Kosovo! - and be recognized by Europe, and their language would be recognized too. Or not?

Assuming the EU agrees to it if they petition to join, then sure.

You're seriosly in cuckoo land if you think Crimea wants to control Halicia or "the West". It's an Autonomous Republic with heavy separatist leanings. It has been that way since 1991. There's no way Crimea or some parts of the South-East that might be brave enough to risk revolt could "control" the ethnically monolithic West, heavily infused with fascist paramilitaries. It was barely kept under control in Soviet times, when it was flooded with money just to stop them from rebelling. Not a single person in the East thinks it is possible to "control" the West of Ukraine. They fear the West controlling them.

And thus they tried to make sure pro-russians are elected and that Ukraine remains in Putins Sphere of influence. Sure they wanted the president to support them and to control the west via the parliament. Oh wait, I forgot we must automatically interpret the actions of the east as favorable as possible.

Actually Crimean Tatars are attacking Russians and vice versa. Sad as it is. Like I said, bad blood is bad blood. Poles and Ukrainians aren't,

Tatars are attacking Russians? Why and when/where? I haven't heard about any of this.

but it seems some Jewish synagogues are either firebombed already or will be in a very short while.

There was only one report so far of a single molotov being thrown posted here, do you have more? Including those alleged surefire plans to bomb others that you claim to now?

I know that now Europe is different; but Franco isn't some super-remote history.

When it comes to the way the EU settles disputes inside their member nations, it might very well be as the systems of conflict resolution are so alien to another.

because they were (or so they claim) oppressed by the Soviet Union.

What the fuck? You don't know that Volga Germans were deported internally in the USSR pretty much like Japanese were in the USA, except their ordeal lasted way longer, like for 10 years? How can you say "so they claim", are you even a historian at all?

I know that. C'mon Stas, I linked you to Spiegel articles about that a few years back. I was referring to more outlandish claims like "the soviet army bulldozed our churches with tanks" and "russian troops used to shoot and rape us at will" "we were not allowed to make tools like axes" for the periods after the deportations. Those are stories I have heard and just find them a bit incredible for the post-stalin era considering the years up to 1990+.

I was asking about Germany, but you already said no to that. As for Crimea - yes, if they split I think they shouldn't keep Ukrainian citizenship and get the Russian one. Which many are already doing - Russians started issuing passports to these people.

Which gives them the perfect legal pretext for an invasion later on. Which depending on the situation may or may not be a good thing.

Doesn't this remind you of something? Like, South Ossetia, where 50% of the population got Russian passports? You were so keen to explain to me how Ukraine is a lot different from Yugoslavia. I see little difference between Karabakh, Georgia, Uzbek-Tajik ethnic cleansing and some Yugoslav ones. If anything, the process is well underway.

Well for one I do not see people shooting Russians in Kiev or firebombing Russian houses. I also do not see the Ukrainian army being cleansed of all Russians and Artillery being brought in to shell the Russians in Kiev or other cities.

Splitting peacefully may be the lesser evil, but note how now the EU says territorial integrity of Ukraine has to be respected.

Russia is saying the same thing.

I do not think Putin wants a civil war. I assume (with all the dangers that present) that he believes the west is lost and that he tries to save what Russia really cares for, that being the crimea with its bases and industry in the east. I don't think he really cares for the west aside the possible loss of face.

[Thanas]

Semi-unrelated question - aren't South Ossetia and Abchasia already black holes for money?

[K. A. Pital]

I would think the east is as much Russian as the Crimea is.

Language isn't everything. Self-definition matters.

With the whole Russian black seas fleet there? No way.

Yes way. Black Fleet's only in Sebastopol. Crimea is a large territory. Russians occupy the barracks, but they won't interfere with thugs beating up Crimean citizens. It's politics, Thanas. You are probably thinking about Russia the Great under Putin the Great with stalwart soldiers ready to defend blah blah, but the fact is, we're dealing with "Russia the Failure" here. And perhaps very soon this will be evident. Going against Georgia's will to reunify the country by force is one thing. Going against the will of Ukraine, even controlled by rebels, is a whole thing alltogether.

The Yugoslav cleansings were also condoned by the state with no other armed forces being present to intervene. The situation is not the same as in the Ukraine. Do you really think the Russian divisions and the Russian fleet will do nothing? I think the fascists do not dare to intervene.

No, Russia will do shit. That's my view. I'm watching their media very closely. It's not Georgia where the forces were already there.

The link doesn't say anything about the SBU just that local police threatened not to carry out any orders issued from Kiev. As to the other things you mention they don't say anything about a warrant being issued. BTW, I fail to see how this is any different from mobs gaining control in the west.

SBU is the security service; now controlled by a guy who's literally a fascist in disguise (very tightly connected to the "Right Sector" paramilitary). They have been quite active in trying to put down whatever's brewing in the South.

I might just as well point to this.

I know. I just said that at some point (when all this will be empty talk) people won't come out. Orwellian surveillance isn't perceived as a serious threat. Ethnic tensions are.

No, my argument that they will not reelect the regions party in the west.

They never elected it in the West. "PR" is dead. Won't be re-elected in the East either.

Hmmm. That is a new interpretation of her arriving in Germany. Got a link for that? All the reports I read is that she is in Germany to get treatment (she seemed in pain) and that she wants to meet Merkel.

She was on the Maidan, you should've seen the video and then read the forums. Don't watch the media, just go on Youtube.

And thus they tried to make sure pro-russians are elected and that Ukraine remains in Putins Sphere of influence. Sure they wanted the president to support them and to control the west via the parliament. Oh wait, I forgot we must automatically interpret the actions of the east as favorable as possible.

No - maybe the East wanted to do that before (before Yanukovich was deposed), but not Crimea. Those always voted separately. Not for PR, for the legal communists. Those were corrupt, however, and now they're deposed too.

Tatars are attacking Russians? Why and when/where? I haven't heard about any of this.

Large fights in Bakhchisaray in 2007, another fight brewing right now, though it may still be defused if Tatars side with the Russian separatists.

Including those alleged surefire plans to bomb others that you claim to now?

There were posters sticked to the synagogue in Kiev - by members of "Svoboda", who are now controlling like half the government - warning the Jews about their impending fate.

I was referring to more outlandish claims like "the soviet army bulldozed our churches with tanks" and "russian troops used to shoot and rape us at will" "we were not allowed to make tools like axes" for the periods after the deportations. Those are stories I have heard and just find them a bit incredible for the post-stalin era considering the years up to 1990+.

This is bullshit of course, some people are just using real history to make shit up. Considering the West still thinks 60 million people died in the USSR's prison system in the 1930s, I'm kind of understanding how this stuff may be taken seriously.

Well for one I do not see people shooting Russians in Kiev or firebombing Russian houses. I also do not see the Ukrainian army being cleansed of all Russians and Artillery being brought in to shell the Russians in Kiev or other cities.

Of course not - like I said, people who identify as Russians are predominantly in the Crimea. There's scant few of them in the East, a bit more in the very South-East. None in Kiev.

I do not think Putin wants a civil war. I assume (with all the dangers that present) that he believes the west is lost and that he tries to save what Russia really cares for, that being the crimea with its bases and industry in the east. I don't think he really cares for the west aside the possible loss of face.

[/quote]
I'd like it to be so. I'm seriously worried. Some of my friends are involved.

Semi-unrelated question - aren't South Ossetia and Abchasia already black holes for money?

Yes they are. Crimea at least has important industries and a strategic port.

[IronStar]

Sure, but the point was that apparently they were not just armed with rubber bullets as Iron Star claimed.

What? Where did i claim this? I didn t claim that particularly these. Actually, i ve claimed nothing- i ve just presented interview with surrendered major of riot forces. And riot forces didn t have firearms- only pump shotguns with rubber bullets.

More about snipers- these videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsoBQm8O11c#t=34
and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvj8F_Br4M#t=718 (watch the beginning to see where are the barricades and hence direction where riot forces were and then 12:20)
if you pay attention to trees you will see that shooting come from behind of protesters which is verified by other materials(notably the article from lb.ua where there is also info about riot forces being shot by snipers).

I ve seen photo with maidans obtaining artillery piece- its not that scary as it looks- these are WW2 era anti tank guns that were the part of the monument. They lack most necessary details to shoot and even if they didn- there wouldn t have been shells to shoot.

About political convicts- that is one of them just released http://112.ua/politika/pravyy-sektor-sf ... 26132.html and he calls "right sector" to send their "warriors" to Sevastopol "to stop sepearatists".

Althougt- Avtomaidan movement (car owners using them to support maidan) and other maidan supporters hand over all riot forces equipment they ve captured(one of these sources -they stopped buses of riot forces going out of the city and forced them to give equipment) to right sector http://112.ua/video/amuniciyu-otobrannu ... rovik.html

Also- large article about right sector where their role as main organized battle and defense force of maidan assured

More- 14 of february- in Kiev small(about 40) demonstration organized calling for peace. THEY have arrived very fast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0xuDrMZYNQ(you can see fascist signs on shields and hear them shouting fascist motto). Same from otheer side http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0wW0gxLe-o

Whatever points opposition leaders were trying to achieve- by accepting support of right wing they ve created very bad problem- large groups of very well organized and equipped ultra-right radicals who felt the smell of power.
Yes, return to 2004 constitution is good- but this is worse....

And about hight standards of live as a result of EN association- was it a joke? http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/assoagree ... 013_en.htm http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2 ... raine.html
Greatly reduced revenue from customs charges, imposing EU standards local industry have NO chance to follow, decreased support of local industry and all that with absolutely free access of EU to Ukraine markets.....you know what that means? Right- absolute collapse of already shitty industry once and forever.
And there is also IMF with its loans, and terms of these loans.....
Yeah, happiness for everyone, nobody leaving sad.

In 2004 everything looked same- Ushenko backed by west, maidan supporting him, fascist marshes, "Glory to Ukraine! Glory to heroes".....it resulted in further fall of economy, derusification, forced ukrainization and all the wonderful stuff.

[Thanas]

I would think the east is as much Russian as the Crimea is.

Language isn't everything. Self-definition matters.

So wait. If I understand you right you mean that the east with 70+ percent speaking Russian does not identify as Russian? I thought these were part of Russia for close to 300 years.

Yes way. Black Fleet's only in Sebastopol. Crimea is a large territory. Russians occupy the barracks, but they won't interfere with thugs beating up Crimean citizens. It's politics, Thanas. You are probably thinking about Russia the Great under Putin the Great with stalwart soldiers ready to defend blah blah, but the fact is, we're dealing with "Russia the Failure" here. And perhaps very soon this will be evident. Going against Georgia's will to reunify the country by force is one thing. Going against the will of Ukraine, even controlled by rebels, is a whole thing alltogether.

I don't know. I like to think the Russians have enough gas to drive there and enough bullets to defend the place, considering they are already moving tanks to Sevastopol. I mean, Russia cannot be that impotent to defend its own citizens that it cannot relocate a few thousand troops to Sevastopol or other areas.

No, Russia will do shit. That's my view. I'm watching their media very closely. It's not Georgia where the forces were already there.

Hmmm. I'd like to believe you but it is somewhat inconceivable to me that Russia is not making contingency plans in case the whole place goes tits up.

SBU is the security service; now controlled by a guy who's literally a fascist in disguise (very tightly connected to the "Right Sector" paramilitary). They have been quite active in trying to put down whatever's brewing in the South.

But where does it show they tried to arrest the guy?

No, my argument that they will not reelect the regions party in the west.

They never elected it in the West. "PR" is dead. Won't be re-elected in the East either.

Then I don't know why you were saying the regions party might get to it.

She was on the Maidan, you should've seen the video and then read the forums. Don't watch the media, just go on Youtube.

I don't speak Ukrainian so I don't understand anything. I also do not see how this validates your claim that they threatened her to go to Europe.

Large fights in Bakhchisaray in 2007, another fight brewing right now, though it may still be defused if Tatars side with the Russian separatists.

Interesting. What do you think would be the best outcome there?

There were posters sticked to the synagogue in Kiev - by members of "Svoboda", who are now controlling like half the government - warning the Jews about their impending fate.

K, got a link?

Of course not - like I said, people who identify as Russians are predominantly in the Crimea. There's scant few of them in the East, a bit more in the very South-East. None in Kiev.

But I thought over 10% of Kiev are Russians and over 70% of Kievans speak Russian.

[Thanas]

Sure, but the point was that apparently they were not just armed with rubber bullets as Iron Star claimed.

What? Where did i claim this? I didn t claim that particularly these. Actually, i ve claimed nothing- i ve just presented interview with surrendered major of riot forces. And riot forces didn t have firearms- only pump shotguns with rubber bullets.

I am getting sick and tired of this spiel of yours. They did have firearms, you argued the guy was speaking the truth, he was not.

More about snipers- these videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsoBQm8O11c#t=34
and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvj8F_Br4M#t=718 (watch the beginning to see where are the barricades and hence direction where riot forces were and then 12:20)

12:20 shows protesters getting hit.

if you pay attention to trees you will see that shooting come from behind of protesters which is verified by other materials(notably the article from lb.ua where there is also info about riot forces being shot by snipers).

That is not shown by the video at all. Fast moving groups can do a lot and why would the fascists snipe their own guys? The video shows them being in fact chased back by gunfire and forced into cover. There is nothing that proves they killed their own guys.

http://112.ua/video/amuniciyu-otobrannu ... rovik.html

Dude, this stuff is in a language which cannot be read by anybody but a small fraction of the board.

More- 14 of february- in Kiev small(about 40) demonstration organized calling for peace. THEY have arrived very fast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0xuDrMZYNQ(you can see fascist signs on shields and hear them shouting fascist motto). Same from otheer side http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0wW0gxLe-o

What does this prove in your opinion?

Greatly reduced revenue from customs charges, imposing EU standards local industry have NO chance to follow, decreased support of local industry and all that with absolutely free access of EU to Ukraine markets.....you know what that means? Right- absolute collapse of already shitty industry once and forever.
And there is also IMF with its loans, and terms of these loans.....
Yeah, happiness for everyone, nobody leaving sad.

Indeed, everything will be just magical once they join the EU.

If you think this is so self-evident then why are over 70% of people in favor of it?

[K. A. Pital]

Here's what the Maidan self-defence (the composition of which you probably already know) said to Timoshenko:

«Уважаемая Юлия Владимировна,
мы очень рады, что Вы уже не в тюрьме и что статья декриминализована!
Но, МЫ стояли не за Вас на Майдане и не за Турчинова, Яценюка или Кличко. Не за Вас погибали. Не для того, чтобы освободить Вас. Проявите силу воли - откажитесь от всех амбиций, которые у Вас могут возникнуть в этот момент эйфории. Вы болеете, поэтому хотели поехать на лечение в Германию. Едьте. А после этого водичку в Карловых Варах попейте. А после этого уже возращайтесь в Украину - санаторий Моршина или Миргорода с радостью Вас примет. А уже после этого, если будете чувствовать силу - возвращайтесь в политику, но не ранее, чем через лет 5.
А до этого НАМ нужно заняться делом: НАМ нужно будет внедрять непопулярные реформы. Сейчас нужны жесткие шаги в экономике, судовой, медицинской и пенсионной системе. Вы НАМ сейчас не нужны. Более того, Ваша харизма, популизм + социальная ориентированность НАМ только помешает.
Ваши слова: "Ми будемо гідними пам'яті тих людей, які загинули, які відкрили нам дорогу...". Кому "нам"? Какую "дорогу"? И куда "дорогу"? Стране - да. Для Вас МЫ ставим Блок-пост.
С уважением и пожеланием скорейшего выздоровления,
нижеподписавшиеся МЫ.»

After that she 'agreed' to go to Germany. You can run this through Google translate. I'm sure you'd be delighted to know that Timoshenko's 'populism and socially oriented thinking' will be an impediment to what WE (or rather, they) intend to do in the Ukraine.

If I understand you right you mean that the east with 70+ percent speaking Russian does not identify as Russian? I thought these were part of Russia for close to 300 years.

Kiev? No. "Mother of all Russian towns" is a saying, it's not the historical truth unless you confuse Kievan and Moscow Russia. Kiev is Ukraine-Ukraine. Not Halicia, but not Russia. Like I said, Ukraine can be divided either in two or in three. It seems that there are possible configurations. And no, people who speak Russian (50% or more of the nations) aren't Russian since they don't indentify. They are biligual Ukrainians, Russian is a second language for them.

But where does it show they tried to arrest the guy?

On the Sebastopol forums people gathered and basically blocked the police from arresting him - I could translate, but that'd take a lot of time and linking (I think it will be in the Guardian sooner or later anyway). You should understand that this guy is effectively a rebel who took up the power without any real authority to do so except popular backing.

About Svoboda and the synagogue:
http://cxid.info/svoboda-obkleila-kievs ... eo-n105055
Once again Google translate will do a nice job here.

[Mange]

I find it fascinating... Every time something goes against the interests of Russia, the knee-jerk reaction of otherwise intelligent people is to blame it on either "oligarchs" or "fascists". The protests started, not among "fascists" or "west-Ukrainian oligarchs", but among the left-leaning youth that want to see their country becoming integrated with Europe.

It's understandable that a large portion of the Ukrainians doesn't want to let their country be constantly blackmailed by Russia as Russia does every time one of its semi-colonies acts in a way that displeases Moscow. We saw this before the demonstrations started when Russia made veiled threats about the trade and we see it now with the Russian minister of finance, Alexey Ulyukaev, saying in an interview that was published yesterday in the German paper Handelsblatt, that if Ukraine signs the agreement with the EU, then Russia would raise the import tariffs (and of course sooner or later Russia will threaten to turn off the gas).

It's a complicated situation that can't be reduced down to "oligarchs" or "fascists". While nationalist and extremist groups were involved in the demonstrations (and the violence), the majority seems to have been perfectly ordinary people. Ukraine, as well as the Baltic states that were mentioned earlier, together with many other countries, were the victims of Russian/Soviet imperialism. The Russian minorities in those countries are victims too. However, waving Russian flags, as we've seen in Sevastopol and other major cities in the east, seems more reactionary than constructive, but the rights of the Russian minority must also be safeguarded. Ukraine can be a partner both to Russia and to Europe, though it has a very long way to go (the corruption for example is massive).

[Thanas]

Here's what the Maidan self-defence (the composition of which you probably already know) said to Timoshenko:

«Уважаемая Юлия Владимировна,
мы очень рады, что Вы уже не в тюрьме и что статья декриминализована!
Но, МЫ стояли не за Вас на Майдане и не за Турчинова, Яценюка или Кличко. Не за Вас погибали. Не для того, чтобы освободить Вас. Проявите силу воли - откажитесь от всех амбиций, которые у Вас могут возникнуть в этот момент эйфории. Вы болеете, поэтому хотели поехать на лечение в Германию. Едьте. А после этого водичку в Карловых Варах попейте. А после этого уже возращайтесь в Украину - санаторий Моршина или Миргорода с радостью Вас примет. А уже после этого, если будете чувствовать силу - возвращайтесь в политику, но не ранее, чем через лет 5.
А до этого НАМ нужно заняться делом: НАМ нужно будет внедрять непопулярные реформы. Сейчас нужны жесткие шаги в экономике, судовой, медицинской и пенсионной системе. Вы НАМ сейчас не нужны. Более того, Ваша харизма, популизм + социальная ориентированность НАМ только помешает.
Ваши слова: "Ми будемо гідними пам'яті тих людей, які загинули, які відкрили нам дорогу...". Кому "нам"? Какую "дорогу"? И куда "дорогу"? Стране - да. Для Вас МЫ ставим Блок-пост.
С уважением и пожеланием скорейшего выздоровления,
нижеподписавшиеся МЫ.»

After that she 'agreed' to go to Germany. You can run this through Google translate. I'm sure you'd be delighted to know that Timoshenko's 'populism and socially oriented thinking' will be an impediment to what WE (or rather, they) intend to do in the Ukraine.

Dear Julia , we are very glad that you are no longer in prison and that the article decriminalized ! But, we were not for you and not on the Maidan for Turchinov Yatsenuk or Klitschko. Not for you died. Not to release you . Be willpower - give up all ambitions that you may have at this moment of euphoria. You get sick , so we wanted to go to Germany for treatment . Ride . And then vodichku in Carlsbad have a drink . And after that giveth to Ukraine - health Morshina Mirgorod or you will be happy . And after that , if you feel the power - return to politics, but not earlier than 5 years . And before that, we need to get down to business : We will need to implement unpopular reforms . Now need tough steps in the economy, marine , medical and pension system. WE now you do not need. Moreover , your charisma , populism social orientation U.S. only hurt. Your words : " Mi will gіdnimi pam'yatі quiet people yakі zaginuli , yakі vіdkrili us the way ... " . Who "we "? What is " the way" ? And where " road "? Country - yes. For you, we put checkpoint . With best regards and wishes for a speedy recovery , WE the undersigned . "

I get the gist of it but could you clear up the

Also, what is the source? That looks a lot like a pamphlet but who signed it? Was it distributed or voted on?

My thing is that Merkel only invited her on the 23rd so it is very easy for the fascists to make it look like they got her to leave. IMO we will see what Timoschenko does. I doubt she will be fazed by this. I still don't think the fascists run the show considering Turchinov is a former right hand guy of Timochenko.

Kiev? No. "Mother of all Russian towns" is a saying, it's not the historical truth unless you confuse Kievan and Moscow Russia. Kiev is Ukraine-Ukraine. Not Halicia, but not Russia. Like I said, Ukraine can be divided either in two or in three. It seems that there are possible configurations. And no, people who speak Russian (50% or more of the nations) aren't Russian since they don't indentify. They are biligual Ukrainians, Russian is a second language for them.

But what about the east?

On the Sebastopol forums people gathered and basically blocked the police from arresting him - I could translate, but that'd take a lot of time and linking (I think it will be in the Guardian sooner or later anyway). You should understand that this guy is effectively a rebel who took up the power without any real authority to do so except popular backing.

K, I will wait for the confirmation then.

About Svoboda and the synagogue:
http://cxid.info/svoboda-obkleila-kievs ... eo-n105055
Once again Google translate will do a nice job here.

Well, a somewhat unclear translation that did not even translate any of the slogans on it but I'll believe you.

[K. A. Pital]

Basically "drink some water on a resort", a pansion in Morshina or Mirgorod will gladly accept you (implying the person is seriously sick and unfit for politics - in Russia this goes since Gorbachov, who hid in a health pansionate while the GKCHP was trying to take over in Moscow, it means the person's out of politics). Populism and social orientation will only hurt us (it's not "U.S., it's us with both letters capitalized for effect).

This was disseminated in social networks through main Maidan websites, which are more or less fully under control of the right-wingers. Turchinov - oh, man, he was probably praying for this. He's way more to the right than even old Julia, and now he basically had a competitor removed through the crowd. I bet he's very happy.

The East isn't Russian. I mean, it can be ethnically Russian, but people don't identify themselves as Russians. If they did, they'd be taking over their administrations like in Crimea, but they aren't.

As for the synagogue article, I am sure you noticed that someone threw a grenade into the automobile of a jewish businessman. Now, these news predate the Maidan by many months, that was Autumn 2013. Do you think fascists are going to get less radical since they got some power? I'm not holding any hopes for that.

[IronStar]

I am getting sick and tired of this spiel of yours. They did have firearms, you argued the guy was speaking the truth, he was not.

It is just an alternative point of view. On the same news site you ve called "kremlin propaganda" http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/02/20/maidanmedic/ interview with main medic of maidan, who says about hundreds of maidan supporters injured, about a lot of protesters having injuries from firearms. Also she says about snipers- but i really don t know how she could find out that "bullets are definitely from sniper rifles" and "it was done by professional.

And i am not siding with berkut riot forces at all- i posted this just to show another information cause your presentation of subject was rather one- sided- you just didn t question pro-maidan information taking it for granted, while it can be biased too. And i am trying to compare info from various sources and try to take some seeming more neutral or valid - most sources i ve posted were youtube vids or news-sites from Ukraine.

12:20 shows protesters getting hit.

Yes. And is quite obvious that shot was not made from riot forces s side.

That is not shown by the video at all.

It is also shown in first 2-minute video i ve posted- the same place shown from other side- look at trees, they are hit by bullets, and these bullets are not from riot forces side.

There is nothing that proves they killed their own guys.

I ve already posted this- http://lb.ua/news/2014/02/22/256600_voz ... _radi.html - yes, i know you cant read it, so i will explain it again- the source is not kremlin propagand, but Ukraine news site close to current pro- maidan minister of domestic affairs.
Andrei Shevchenko- one of Maidan people s deputies, who contacted with Berkut(yes, representatives of Maidan did have contacts with riot forces and sometimes negotiated with them) received a tel cal from one of Berkut commanders who said, that they were shot by snipers, many wounded, some already killed and asked to check if anybody of protesters coul do this. They ve checked the building from where sniper could be shooting(its building of Conservatory where as Anderi mentions some radicals vere at the moment) but nobody there. After this- berkut commander calls again and reports more kills.

All info that we have points at fascists- actually, leaders of opposition criticized the "right sector" for too violent actions and been uncontrollable sometimes. As i said- opposition leaders need right wing cause of they are effective combatants, they good at capturing buildings ad they serve as "police" force also, and Tiagnibok support of course. But its is likely that opposition leaders will try to get rid of most radical fascist as soon as violent confrontation with berkut ends and they gain full control of domestic affairs ministry, police and remaining riot forces. So- the more violence there is, the more violent confrontation with riot forces is- the more opposition leaders need radical fascist. By this sniper shooting(if it was really committed by radicals) they ve made themselves far more valuable. More than that- riot forces were totally discredited and then weakened(berkut practically ceased to exist). As a result- new government s abilities to use old enforcement forces limited. And what we see now- "right sector" actually became something like police unit now, has people at domestic affairs ministry and became far stronger(especially with crapton of captured riot forces equipment)- you are not going do disarm them and get rid of them quick.

Dude, this stuff is in a language which cannot be read by anybody but a small fraction of the board.

I ve already explained what he was talking about. But i think that you dont believe me- of course, i am "The bloody-Kremlin-Putin-KGB propagandist- which is not about me at all.

What does this prove in your opinion?

You really don t see? LOL! Tiny group of people peacefully protests against Maidan and SUDDENLY 100+ well organized and equipped fascists arrive and violently beat them up. And nobody gives a FUCK. You know, i ve read some comments of pro - Maidans about this- they say that these "titushki" beaten themselves to blame maidan then.

Indeed, everything will be just magical once they join the EU.

Sure.

f you think this is so self-evident then why are over 70% of people in favor of it?

Go ask these guys


But seriously- maidan does not express opinion of entire Ukraine. There is plenty of info about anti-maidan movemnt that is against association(it gains more and more people but it has problem- it is not organized). And from what i know and read(including opinions from early maidan)- people just....believed. Anyway from what i know- people at Maidan seriously cared about EU in beginning- later only things they cared about were just having Yanukovich and all his shit band thrown away.

[K. A. Pital]

*sad sigh*
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breakin ... 014/02/23/

Well, this was all too predictable.

[Mange]

Other sites are reporting that the claims are exaggerated and that there are Jews in the Maidan as well: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... -in-maidan

I'd say that the use of obscure and unreliable news sources (such as the one about Timoshenko further above) to "prove" a point shows confirmation bias rather than trying to understand the situation.

[K. A. Pital]

Other sites are reporting that the claims are exaggerated and that there are Jews in the Maidan as well

Maidan is an amorphous protest of thousands upon thousands. Right-wingers are well-mobilized and currently completely uncontrolled. That's how they win, actually. During the worst days it was them who stood up to the police, who held out buildings and street pretty much as if it was a real war.

I'd say that the use of obscure and unreliable news sources (such as the one about Timoshfnko further sbove) shows confirmation bias rather thsn trying to understand thd situation.

Reliability in the revolutionary chaos is rather relative. If I want to find out what happens to Ukraine, I go read what "Svoboda" and "Right Sector" say. They say Timoshenko good bye? Right - she goes off to Germany. They say Ukraine be ukrainized - regional language allowance for Russian's removed the next day.

Sorry for listening to those who hold the rifles. I think they're the power. Not some corrupt thugs that nobody even listens to.

[mr friendly guy]

Invade Ukraine? Thanks. No. Leave the West be as fascist as they like. Just let the East or Crimea go if they so desire. I think Europe doesn't have a right to call itself a real anti-fascist force, considering you had open facists ruling some states well into the 70s. I also think that giving money to the West is fine. That will keep them less prone to fascist extremism; fascism rises when poverty and governmental collapse are present. Eastern Europe was saved from rapid rise of fascism by EU transfers, although the slow creep continues in many nations.

If the East all but becomes independent, do you think it will go the way of South Ossetia where only a few states recognise its independence, or become absorbed by Russia.

[K. A. Pital]

Invade Ukraine? Thanks. No. Leave the West be as fascist as they like. Just let the East or Crimea go if they so desire. I think Europe doesn't have a right to call itself a real anti-fascist force, considering you had open facists ruling some states well into the 70s. I also think that giving money to the West is fine. That will keep them less prone to fascist extremism; fascism rises when poverty and governmental collapse are present. Eastern Europe was saved from rapid rise of fascism by EU transfers, although the slow creep continues in many nations.

If the East all but becomes independent, do you think it will go the way of South Ossetia where only a few states recognise its independence, or become absorbed by Russia.

No, the East won't become independent. At least now I just don't see it. Crimea may, and even they may fold since the hardships that the "island Krim" would have to endure during the breakoff would be quite severe. One has to be ready for what's coming.

[fgalkin]

Well, that was quick. Euromaidanites dispersing crowds with Kalashnikovs



Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin