Transformers: Age of Extinction

[JLTucker]

I can see some of the complaints levied against him, however, particularly the way he shoots women and how the scripts handle them. Transformers is a prime example of that.

[Tandrax218]

this is going to be the hit when it gets out
I love explosions and robots and action.

If you preffer drama and actors go see Casablanca with Humprey Bogard...

I mean we are talking about a movie about GIANT robats that transform into various things and fight and shit gets blown up
Being from Europe the whole 'murica thing is mildly anoying/funny/retarded
Merica fuck yeahhh and alll that...

[NeoGoomba]

I can see some of the complaints levied against him, however, particularly the way he shoots women and how the scripts handle them. Transformers is a prime example of that.

Oh totally. I can agree when people raise legitimate points. For starters, his movies can devolve into frenetic messes at times, and he loves to drag out action scenes. But when people just say "Movie A: It's complete shit, Movie B: It's complete shit, etc," that's a little grating, especially since most of his movies (I haven't seen all of them) retain SOME merit.

[Iroscato]

this is going to be the hit when it gets out
I love explosions and robots and action.

If you preffer drama and actors go see Casablanca with Humprey Bogard...

I mean we are talking about a movie about GIANT robats that transform into various things and fight and shit gets blown up
Being from Europe the whole 'murica thing is mildly anoying/funny/retarded
Merica fuck yeahhh and alll that...

Not sure if troll or just so very coked-up...

[StarSword]

this is going to be the hit when it gets out
I love explosions and robots and action.

If you preffer drama and actors go see Casablanca with Humprey Bogard...

I mean we are talking about a movie about GIANT robats that transform into various things and fight and shit gets blown up
Being from Europe the whole 'murica thing is mildly anoying/funny/retarded
Merica fuck yeahhh and alll that...

Not sure if troll or just so very coked-up...

Nah, some of us just go to silly action flicks so we can turn our brains off and enjoy the ride.

[Tandrax218]

+1

[Crazedwraith]

Bad Boys and Bad Boys II: Satirizes macho cop behavior and all of the problems therein. This much is obvious. It's also competently directed and shot.

I'm curious. What makes you say that Bad Boys 'satirizes' macho cop behaviour rather than just playing it painfully straight?

[JLTucker]

Bad Boys and Bad Boys II: Satirizes macho cop behavior and all of the problems therein. This much is obvious. It's also competently directed and shot.

I'm curious. What makes you say that Bad Boys 'satirizes' macho cop behaviour rather than just playing it painfully straight?

It's just so over done. Look at Bad Boys II and the scene where Mike (Will Smith) opens the door to speak with Marcus' daughter's date. He acts like a "gangsta", brandishing his gun and talking hard. It's obscene. Then you have the dynamic between Mike and Marcus, the former's behavior leads the latter to go to therapy to help with his anger. You also have them destroying a portion of the city through their antics and getting off scott free.

[Tribble]

I wonder if we're ever going to have a live-action movie of Optimus Prime being, well, Optimus Prime? You know, the one where "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" and non-violence are actual beliefs of his?

Wiki's entry for the ending of Dark of the Moon:

Optimus and Sentinel fight while Carly convinces Megatron that he will be replaced as leader of the Decepticons by Sentinel. Sentinel severs Optimus' right arm, and is about to execute him when Megatron intervenes, incapacitating Sentinel. Megatron invokes Optimus for a truce, having the desire to become the one in charge again. Optimus refuses and attacks Megatron, decapitating and killing him, pulling out his head and spine. Sentinel pleads for his life, but Optimus executes him too for betraying his own principles.

Does that sound like the Optimus you grew up with? Cause it sure as hell doesn't to me!

[Dread Not]

At first glance, Orci & Kurtzman sitting this one out strikes me as a good sign, but now that means Ehren Kruger whose filmography looks arguable worse is writing this one solo. And similarly I'm glad we have a brand new cast to replace Shia and company, but casting not-Katara in a leading roll doesn't fill me with confidence either. Hopefully she has found a better acting coach in the four years since then.

[StarSword]

I wonder if we're ever going to have a live-action movie of Optimus Prime being, well, Optimus Prime? You know, the one where "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" and non-violence are actual beliefs of his?

I strongly doubt that absolute non-violence has ever been a belief of Optimus, or else he'd be dead. Now, granted, my first serious exposure to the franchise was Transformers Cybertron, but I have the niggling impression even the original TV series had just as much violence. It just never ended with anybody getting permakilled because it was a kid's cartoon.

Whatever their faults (not going there), the Bayformers series is not a cartoon. Optimus fights with lethal intent because it's the only way to win.

And let's not mince words here: You didn't watch Transformers because Optimus espoused high ideals. You watched it because you wanted to see giant robots beating the lubricant out of each other.

[Grumman]

Optimus fights with lethal intent because it's the only way to win.

The more obnoxious parts of Bay's portrayal of Optimus Prime are when he isn't fighting. Executing the wounded Demolishor is another example.

[Tribble]

I wonder if we're ever going to have a live-action movie of Optimus Prime being, well, Optimus Prime? You know, the one where "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" and non-violence are actual beliefs of his?

I strongly doubt that absolute non-violence has ever been a belief of Optimus, or else he'd be dead. Now, granted, my first serious exposure to the franchise was Transformers Cybertron, but I have the niggling impression even the original TV series had just as much violence. It just never ended with anybody getting permakilled because it was a kid's cartoon.

Whatever their faults (not going there), the Bayformers series is not a cartoon. Optimus fights with lethal intent because it's the only way to win.

And let's not mince words here: You didn't watch Transformers because Optimus espoused high ideals. You watched it because you wanted to see giant robots beating the lubricant out of each other.

G1 Prime is completely different from this version. Up until the final confrontation with Megatron in the 1986 movie, he did not resort to lethal force. Even during the movie he only wounded the other Deceptions. There is a reason why "One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall" was such an epic line. It was at this point where G1 Prime (and the audience) realised that he had absolutely no choice in dealing with Megatron but to fight him to the death. And even then he refused to fight dirty like Megatron did, and refused to kill Megatron when he had the chance - all he had to do was to shoot Megatron while he was pretending to surrender and it would have been over. But that would go against everything that he stood for, so he didn't do it. If HotRod had not interfered and Megatron had gone for the gun (which Optimus seems to have been expecting) then yes he probably would have killed him. But Optimus still tried to avoid the loss of life by giving Megatron once last chance to surrender. That's who he is.

Would Optimus Prime really backstab Megatron after Megatron saved his life and offered a truce? Would Optimus Prime really execute Sentinel Prime while Sentinel Prime was begging for his life? Absolutely not! Optimus Prime is basically the robot version of Superman - there's a reason why kids cried when G1 Optimus died, and it wasn't just because he was a cool robot and that the death was unexpected. It was because like Batman, Superman, Spiderman etc he was a hero who would never compromise on his principles nor his integrity.

This Optimus Prime may appease the "darker and grittier" crowd, but for most people who grew up with the original he's pretty much nothing more than "Optimus Prime in name only".

[Crossroads Inc.]

I'll Agree with Tribble 100%.

Times change and so do people. These days we EXPECT meaner, nastier fighting. We know all the dirty tricks of the Bad guys, and expect the Good guys to fight dirty too.
When I watched the first Bay Transformers I Cheered with adrenaline stoked excitement when he drives his sword into the head of the fallen Devastator and then rips the head off like it was some sort of piece of Junk.

But latter, after the excitement dies down, and the rush wheres off you start to think... Optimus, the REAL Optimus would NEVER have done that!!!
Now to us these days, Cartoon Optimus seemed bone headed stupid sometimes, he could have ended Meagtron dozens of times over but didn't. But THATS the kind of guy he WAS!

I mean, look at Nolanverse Batman.
Super Gritty and Dark and GRRR, yet not killing, NOT using lethal force was at the very core of HIS hero, and that was pulled off brilliantly.

[StarSword]

Ok, I'll give you that one. Never got around to watching Dark of the Moon.

[SAMAS]

I never got that Prime was specifically against killing in war as he was against war itself.

Wait, that's not quite right. Lemme try that again.

I don't see Optimus Prime as being particularly hesitant to kill once the fighting starts, but more opposed to having to fight in the first place. Although I do think that executing Demolishor and Megatron in the second and third movies were OOC for him (especially in Dark of the Moon).

Another way to put it is that he would rather not shove a sword through your chest, so he urges you not to fight. Once the fighting begins, he will shove a sword through your chest if that's what it takes, but feel remorse over it (and any other casualties) once the fighting is over.

[mr friendly guy]

I actually liked this darker aspect of heroes because the bad guys God damn it needed to die to protect us. However I agree 100% this isn't the Optimus I grew up with. Not sure if there is another way to have both the dark aspect and the Optimus of old. Maybe have some other Autobot take on the dark role and kills the bad guy and tried to justify it as they were just waiting to betray Optimus, but Optimus just couldn't see it. Then have Optimus have a falling out with that other Autobot.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Why does he need to kill at all? These are MACHINE Life forms..
If you want a "Dark and Gritty" Optimus, he could just Hack off someone arms and legs "Try and transform NOW"
The Bot isn't going to "bleed to death" right?

[biostem]

Why does he need to kill at all? These are MACHINE Life forms..
If you want a "Dark and Gritty" Optimus, he could just Hack off someone arms and legs "Try and transform NOW"
The Bot isn't going to "bleed to death" right?

I agree, and it's unfortunate that the Bay Transformers seem to try and expressly make the Transformers more organic - things like "fiber hair" and other weird aspects.

[Tribble]

I actually liked this darker aspect of heroes because the bad guys God damn it needed to die to protect us. However I agree 100% this isn't the Optimus I grew up with. Not sure if there is another way to have both the dark aspect and the Optimus of old. Maybe have some other Autobot take on the dark role and kills the bad guy and tried to justify it as they were just waiting to betray Optimus, but Optimus just couldn't see it. Then have Optimus have a falling out with that other Autobot.

That was kind of what I was expecting to see over the course of these movies. The Autobots and Decepticons have been fighting for millions of years and you would think that after all this time some of the Autobots would want to start taking a more pragmatic approach, while some of the Deceptions may be fed-up with Megatron's carnage.

Optmius should have been the ideal hero that everyone aspires to be, and apart from the conflict with Megatron the movies should have focused on whether Optimus' ideals could really work in the real world. IMO that would have far better than what we've had so far. But then again this is Micheal Bay we're talking about - putting boobs and explosions on camera already stretch his abilities to the limit.

[Crossroads Inc.]

WOW Tribble, you just laid out a transformers plot that I'd ACTUALLY find compelling!
I can see that as being something that would A: actually FOCUS on the transformers as the main protagonists instead of a bunch of twerps humans… and B: be a movie that would have a serious and moral compelling plot!

You have the "good" guys, who after millions of years of war have become bitter, resentful, and want to start using more aggressive and lethal methods and question their leader.
You have the "bad" guys who after millions of years of ceaseless carnage have begun to grow tired of the slaughter and are questioning THEIR leader.

Having the focus of the movie being on the moral struggle of someone trying to stick by their morals in circumstances when everyone else are questioning them. THAT would have been good.

[The Cooler King]

G1 Prime is completely different from this version. Up until the final confrontation with Megatron in the 1986 movie, he did not resort to lethal force. Even during the movie he only wounded the other Deceptions. There is a reason why "One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall" was such an epic line. It was at this point where G1 Prime (and the audience) realised that he had absolutely no choice in dealing with Megatron but to fight him to the death. And even then he refused to fight dirty like Megatron did, and refused to kill Megatron when he had the chance - all he had to do was to shoot Megatron while he was pretending to surrender and it would have been over. But that would go against everything that he stood for, so he didn't do it. If HotRod had not interfered and Megatron had gone for the gun (which Optimus seems to have been expecting) then yes he probably would have killed him. But Optimus still tried to avoid the loss of life by giving Megatron once last chance to surrender. That's who he is.

Would Optimus Prime really backstab Megatron after Megatron saved his life and offered a truce? Would Optimus Prime really execute Sentinel Prime while Sentinel Prime was begging for his life? Absolutely not! Optimus Prime is basically the robot version of Superman - there's a reason why kids cried when G1 Optimus died, and it wasn't just because he was a cool robot and that the death was unexpected. It was because like Batman, Superman, Spiderman etc he was a hero who would never compromise on his principles nor his integrity.

This Optimus Prime may appease the "darker and grittier" crowd, but for most people who grew up with the original he's pretty much nothing more than "Optimus Prime in name only".

Well spoken, and hear here. I like parts of the Bayformers movies (the fight in the forest in #2, for instance, is badass), but seeing Prime execute helpless, wounded enemies just strikes me as... well, wrong. Tribble has it exactly right: Prime is like Superman (pre-Man of Steel Superman, anyway); he's the one who finds that third option, the one that allows him to maintain his principles while still doing the job. I would argue that Prime is a soldier: he would kill in the heat of battle, but after the battle is over? Not a chance (although, as Tribble pointed out, he likely WOULD have executed Megatron after that last chance to surrender in the 1986 movie).

On a side note, it's a bit depressing to see people defend these types of dramatic choices for characters that really don't fit. "He didn't have a choice!" is one I keep hearing. Bullshit. These are fictional characters; they have precisely as many choices as the writer gives them. Whether it's Superman, or Captain America, or Optimus Prime, sometimes the good guys should just be good guys. Trying to twist them into darker, more 'realistic' versions does them a disservice, and only says something about the person doing the twisting.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Why does he need to kill at all? These are MACHINE Life forms..
If you want a "Dark and Gritty" Optimus, he could just Hack off someone arms and legs "Try and transform NOW"
The Bot isn't going to "bleed to death" right?

I agree, and it's unfortunate that the Bay Transformers seem to try and expressly make the Transformers more organic - things like "fiber hair" and other weird aspects.

Missed your post yesterday, but could not agree more with it!
I totally get wanting to make the machines "People like" so that movie audiences are able to get more of a connection with them… But Bay (for the most part) did virtually nothing to drive home the fact they are inorganic life forms, other just calling them "Non Biological Entities" or something. Shoot "Beast Wars"the cartoon did a great job of this when you often had peoples limbs blasted off and removed without them worrying about "bleeding to death"

In #3 when Sentinel prime gets his "Helmet" knocked off, I did an actual double take and responded "HELMET? that should have been his HEAD"

I would have liked it if the focus of "injuries" had been a lot more about "damage to your chase, but your spark is intact" sort of thing. Because that is what "health" and repairs should be based around. You could be shot and slagged all to hell, but if your "spark containment unit" is functional, then you would still be able to survive and be repaired.
Thats something about Jazz's "death" in number one that got me. When they find his torso at the end, I originally had hoped for something like "He has gone into stasis, but his Spark is still intact"

[biostem]

Why does he need to kill at all? These are MACHINE Life forms..
If you want a "Dark and Gritty" Optimus, he could just Hack off someone arms and legs "Try and transform NOW"
The Bot isn't going to "bleed to death" right?

I agree, and it's unfortunate that the Bay Transformers seem to try and expressly make the Transformers more organic - things like "fiber hair" and other weird aspects.

Missed your post yesterday, but could not agree more with it!
I totally get wanting to make the machines "People like" so that movie audiences are able to get more of a connection with them… But Bay (for the most part) did virtually nothing to drive home the fact they are inorganic life forms, other just calling them "Non Biological Entities" or something. Shoot "Beast Wars"the cartoon did a great job of this when you often had peoples limbs blasted off and removed without them worrying about "bleeding to death"

In #3 when Sentinel prime gets his "Helmet" knocked off, I did an actual double take and responded "HELMET? that should have been his HEAD"

I would have liked it if the focus of "injuries" had been a lot more about "damage to your chase, but your spark is intact" sort of thing. Because that is what "health" and repairs should be based around. You could be shot and slagged all to hell, but if your "spark containment unit" is functional, then you would still be able to survive and be repaired.
Thats something about Jazz's "death" in number one that got me. When they find his torso at the end, I originally had hoped for something like "He has gone into stasis, but his Spark is still intact"

I specifically remember an episode of G1 where Wheeljack cobbled together an Autobot body out of spare parts, and transferred Spike's mind into it while his body was healing. You could tell whose parts that body was made from. That, IMO, meant that doing things like swapping out an arm, leg, or even entire parts of a torso, was something they could do.

I could buy that Megatron wasn't able to properly repair his head/jaw between the 2nd and 3rd movie, as the Decepticons had to go into hiding, but as you pointed out, Jazz just got ripped in half - his upper torso and head should have been fine, and able to be repaired after the fact...

[Crossroads Inc.]

Oh Wow I completely forgot about that G1 episode, yeah it is such a great example of what thinking "within the box" when it comes to machine life forms is like. Now that I am thinking about it, I want to say there was even examples from the movie with the "Junkions" smashing into each others and swamping heads and parts and such.

Yeah the Jazz thing was a part where you could have set the tone for how the Transformers treated "injuries" for the whole rest of the series. Imagine starting the second movie with Jazz in a "Repair facility" of sorts, his torso still slowly being reconnected to his legs, him awake and bitching about not being able to walk around yet or something.

As far as Re-Thinking the whole Optimus moral paradigm, Really at this point I'd love to see a Reboot of the whole series under a different director.
You could easily junk half the Human cast from the first movie. Make it just about Sam and a would be girlfriend for the "personable" characters. You could keep the military part of it (which I quite liked) Make the Soldier who survives the initial attack Sams brother or such (Just so theres a connection between them) Theres not really a need for any other human main characters.

You could also easily get rid of the whole "Section 7" secret organization nonsense as well, Just have the all spark be still hidden buried under a million tons of Rock someone, have Meagtron "In Stasis" and knocked out some where nearby. Have some caves leading down to where its hiding that only a Human can fit through.

The bulk of the Movie would simply revolve around the Autobots and Decepticons finding the Allspark. They skirmish a few times perhaps one on one, Optimus "disarms" one or two, but lets them go / shows mercy. Autobots push Optimus to take more lethal methods against the Decpticons.
Meanwhile the Decpeticons Bicker among themselves, some of them (sporting makeshift limbs) argue about a truce or even suing for peace. Of course Starscream whips them into an angry furor and pushes them on. And eventually the two meet up, Megatron is revived and goes on a rampage.