Police are not on your side, don't ask them for help

[Gaidin]

Yeah, I'll grant you that voter apathy is a motherfucker. But still, if change can't be made at the voter end, then you and yours handling things at your end becomes all the more important.

Question: Didn't, according to KS, those officers do so? They spoke up, and the cop was fired, as I understand it. Or would you just like to stereotype them like a motherfucker? It was the DA that refused to press charges. It's his decision. Not the cops. They don't have law degrees. And for the few cops that do, they're not a part of the DA's office, they're a part of a totally different section of the bureaucracy. Tell me, what should the cops that spoke up do when the DA refuses to press charges as is his decision? What magic wand should they wave so that you won't wave your stereotype dick wand around?

[Mr. Coffee]

Yeah, I'll grant you that voter apathy is a motherfucker. But still, if change can't be made at the voter end, then you and yours handling things at your end becomes all the more important.

Question: Didn't, according to KS, those officers do so? They spoke up, and the cop was fired, as I understand it. Or would you just like to stereotype them like a motherfucker? It was the DA that refused to press charges. It's his decision. Not the cops. They don't have law degrees. And for the few cops that do, they're not a part of the DA's office, they're a part of a totally different section of the bureaucracy. Tell me, what should the cops that spoke up do when the DA refuses to press charges as is his decision? What magic wand should they wave so that you won't wave your stereotype dick wand around?

Then raise a stink about it. Eitherway, had that been, say, me shooting a car thief under those circumstances I know my ass would have been charged. If you see something wrong than raise a fuss about it and try to get the problem fixed.

Also, if KS would be willing to PM the phone of the DA that did that I'll be happy to call the man and call him a motherfucker myself.

[Gaidin]

Then raise a stink about it. Eitherway, had that been, say, me shooting a car thief under those circumstances I know my ass would have been charged. If you see something wrong than raise a fuss about it and try to get the problem fixed.

Also, if KS would be willing to PM the phone of the DA that did that I'll be happy to call the man and call him a motherfucker myself.

So they're supposed to do this when the DA made a perfectly valid decision within the purview of his office to not charge the officer? At this point it is legitimately at the foot of the voters to decide whether the decision was right or wrong(as opposed to legal or illegal). The officers took issue with the action, raised the issue, the cop got fired. The DA didn't press charges. Apparently the voters decided it was the right one. Or they were just lazy. Take your damn pick.

[Mr. Coffee]

Still not seeing how that invalidates my point about cops being more proactive about policing themselves being more important thanks to dipshit voters and lazy lawyers.

[Steve]

What's all this anti-police propaganda, Coffee? Are you trying to undermine the heroic men and women who risk their lives to protect us from criminals? Are you trying to support the criminals against the police?

Mr. Coffee, are you soft on crime?!

And that, I think, is the likely result of candidates with police reform attitudes like your's getting on the ballot. Their opponents will gleefully proclaim them SOFT ON CRIME and, in the process, win valuable police union endorsements while the latter will join the slander, insisting that if elected you would make law enforcement more difficult and allow more CRIME to happen.

Ah, yes, that is my cynicism showing, you're quite correct.

[Lonestar]

1. Where the Hell do you learn about how exactly to handle being pulled over by an officer?

Jeff Foxworthy. Completely serious. In the 90s he had a bit where he said "when I'm in trouble with my wife I treat it just like a traffic stop, I keep my hands visible, look straight ahead, and answer yes or no respectively until I figure out what exactly it is I'm in trouble for." That's where I learned it from.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Any bets on how it would turned out had it been a civilian shooting the car thief and not a cop?

He likely would have been charged by the DA.

Dude, you get to carry a gun and have a badge and nifty uniform that grunts you a hell of a lot of fucking authority over other citizens. Holding you to a higher standard than the average shlub is not unreasonable. I shouldn't have to start at the top and work down. You and your fellow officers should take responsibility for your actions and the actions of your fellow officers.

No, it isn't unreasonable. However, when you have a problem with accountability then you do need to start from the top and work down because that's where the problem is like I just showed you with my example.

Its true enough to damned near count as a statistically validated stereotype, dude.

It's true in the sense that it happens more often than it does to civilians. Cops are charged less. Convicted less, and serve less time. The charge, conviction, and time serve rate for police sits around a 40% average for all three categories. In regards to civilians the average is 61%.

*this comes from incomplete data but this data remains the only source that I am aware of.

Anyway, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to trust US police. I think that's a safe position to hold. It's the hate that I don't agree with. Being distrustful due to statistics is one thing but being hateful isn't acceptable to me.

Seriously, is expecting people granted the authority and responsibility you've been given to exercise integrity really that unreasonable? If you see a problem do you wait until there's a public outcry or do you bring attention to the problem and try to solve it?

Have I ever indicated that it is unreasonable?

Yeah, I'll grant you that voter apathy is a motherfucker. But still, if change can't be made at the voter end, then you and yours handling things at your end becomes all the more important.

If change doesn't happen at the voter end then it won't happen from the top down thus the perception will continue and when cops don't cover for their own we still get the blame when the offending cop isn't charged, isn't convicted, or doesn't spend a long enough time in jail/prison. The only one of those three cops play a direct role in is being charged. If cops cover it up then charges are much less likely. However, if they don't then the charges, conviction, and time to be served all fall in the hands of others.

[StarSword]

1. Where the Hell do you learn about how exactly to handle being pulled over by an officer?

Lucky me, from observing my dad. One time, we got pulled over on a motorcycle trip because he missed a change in the speed limit and ended up doing 65 in a 55 or something minor like that. He stayed calm and courteous and the state trooper basically said, "Ok, pay a little more attention next time" and let us go.

I've been pulled over twice, once because I had a tail light out, the other time because they had a roadblock set up and were checking everybody's ID's. With the taillight I had the luck to have Dad pull up behind us, and so I let him handle it, and then afterwards Dad walked me through what he did (stayed and acted calm, kept his hands where the deputy could see them, etc.). In the case of the roadblock, I very calmly told the deputy, "Ok, I need to get off the motorcycle and dig into my riding chaps to get my registration" (bike doesn't have a glove compartment so I keep it in my wallet), and then proceeded to do that. He checked my registration and waved me through.

Also helps that one of my uncles was a sheriff's deputy in Orlando for a while. Uncle Fred mentioned pulling people over for traffic violations and planning on just giving them a warning, then ticketing them when they decided to be complainy jerkwads.

So, yeah, being a little nicer to people and using some common sense pays dividends. Stay and act calm, don't mouth off, tell the officer what you're going to do before you do it, and do what they tell you to do without whining. If the officer does something wrong, tell the department's community relations people (actually learned that one from a Dragnet rerun). And yes, they most certainly should teach all this in driver's ed.

[Mr. Coffee]

KS, has anyone ever told you that talking to you is like conversing with weaponized reasonable? Seriously,

He likely would have been charged by the DA.

Yeah, kinda figured that. Out of curiosity, what was the reason for why charging the officer in your example would have been more expensive than charging a civilian? Is your union really that good or is there some procedural bullshit at work I'm unaware of?

It's true in the sense that it happens more often than it does to civilians. Cops are charged less. Convicted less, and serve less time. The charge, conviction, and time serve rate for police sits around a 40% average for all three categories. In regards to civilians the average is 61%.

*this comes from incomplete data but this data remains the only source that I am aware of.

Actually, that's a good bit less than I thought it would be, but still, 21% less chance of being charged, convicted, and serving long sentences is disturbing as fuck.

Anyway, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to trust US police. I think that's a safe position to hold. It's the hate that I don't agree with. Being distrustful due to statistics is one thing but being hateful isn't acceptable to me.

Well, I was mostly venting. It's not you I'm pissed at (seriously, has anyone every actually stayed mad at you?), it's your profession as a whole in the US. If more cops were as reasonable as you are, and if more departments were as proactive about firing the shitheads like yours appears to be from your earlier example, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Have I ever indicated that it is unreasonable?

Not that I'm aware of. But then again, at this point I'm starting to think that the "reasonable person standard" was based off of you.

If change doesn't happen at the voter end then it won't happen from the top down thus the perception will continue and when cops don't cover for their own we still get the blame when the offending cop isn't charged, isn't convicted, or doesn't spend a long enough time in jail/prison. The only one of those three cops play a direct role in is being charged. If cops cover it up then charges are much less likely. However, if they don't then the charges, conviction, and time to be served all fall in the hands of others.

So basically this ain't ever gonna change.

[Mr. Coffee]

1. Where the Hell do you learn about how exactly to handle being pulled over by an officer?

Here's what to do when you're pulled over from US law enforcement.

1. Try not to be a visible racial minority.

2. Keep your hands in plain sight at all times. Preferably, don't move them away from the 2 and 10 o'clock position on the steering wheel unless told to do so (like the officer asks for your insurance and you need to get the card out of the glovebox).

3. Be polite. Don't call the officer "dude" or "Bro" or "Homie". Call them sir if it's a male and mame if it's a female.

4. Do not volunteer information. Answer only questions asked. It's when you start babbbling that shit goes wrong. Just shut the fuck up unless you need to answer the officer's questions.

5. If you have a concealed carry permit and are carrying LET THE COP KNOW FIRST FUCKING THING. Even if your state doesn't require it. Just say "Sir/Mame, I have a valid CCW in the State of Blahblah and I am currently armed. Would you like me to surrender my weapon to you for the duration of the stop?" If they say yes, carefully withdraw the weapon, drop the magazine/open the cylinder, unload and safe it before handing it over. Most times though they'll probably just tell you to keep it holstered. In either case it usually puts them a little at ease if you're upfront and tell them first thing.

6. Know your fucking rights. I don't just mean your constitutional rights, I mean go look up state and local laws concerning shit like when they can and cannot search you or your vehicle. If they try to violate your rights, assert them, but remember Rule #3.

7. When in doubt lawyer the fuck up and be prepared to go to court.

[Gandalf]

Coffee, I think you missed the point of the question. Is there a standardised way for people to learn how to handle American police? You clearly know, but from where did you learn it?

Are there pamphlets handed out at school?

[Mr. Coffee]

Coffee, I think you missed the point of the question. Is there a standardised way for people to learn how to handle American police? You clearly know, but from where did you learn it?

Learned some from high school civics, some from my Pop, some from CCW training classes, some from experience with interacting with cops.

Mostly though it's just common sense. For example, that bit about being polite. Not that bright of an idea to be a dick to authority figures, cops are authority figures, so don't be a dick when interacting with cops acting in an official capacity. Pretty easy stuff.

Are there pamphlets handed out at school?

Not that I know of. Might be an idea for a sticky thread. Not sure if "How Not To Get Your Pubes Tased Off: An SDN Guide TO Interacting With American Law Enforcement" will fit in the thread title character limit.

[General Zod]

Coffee, I think you missed the point of the question. Is there a standardised way for people to learn how to handle American police? You clearly know, but from where did you learn it?

Are there pamphlets handed out at school?

I guess they don't have COPS on TV in Australia? I mean most of it you can pick up by watching stories about cops arresting people for doing stupid shit and following the example of "Don't do what this guy did."

[fgalkin]

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Alferd Packer]

4. Do not volunteer information. Answer only questions asked. It's when you start babbbling that shit goes wrong. Just shut the fuck up unless you need to answer the officer's questions.

I'd take it a step further and not answer any questions not directly related to handing the officer your information. Answering, "Do you know how fast you were going?" or "Do you know why I stopped you?" is the surest way a cop has to getting you to admit that you broke the law. Hard as it may be, just don't say anything. The cop is expecting a reply, so if you stay silent, he's going to fill in the information for you anyway, and you've admitted nothing. About the only question you'll want to answer is, "Can I take a look inside your trunk?" and that is with a polite but firm "No."

[General Zod]

4. Do not volunteer information. Answer only questions asked. It's when you start babbbling that shit goes wrong. Just shut the fuck up unless you need to answer the officer's questions.

I'd take it a step further and not answer any questions not directly related to handing the officer your information. Answering, "Do you know how fast you were going?" or "Do you know why I stopped you?" is the surest way a cop has to getting you to admit that you broke the law. Hard as it may be, just don't say anything. The cop is expecting a reply, so if you stay silent, he's going to fill in the information for you anyway, and you've admitted nothing. About the only question you'll want to answer is, "Can I take a look inside your trunk?" and that is with a polite but firm "No."

On the other hand, if a cop is hounding you with questions like he's fishing for a response and you really want to leave, you can always ask them if you're being placed under arrest.

[Borgholio]

On the other hand, if a cop is hounding you with questions like he's fishing for a response

I've had cops pull me over for no apparent reason (I'm white, in case anybody asks), and they start fishing for things I did wrong to try and get me a ticket. For instance, the pulled me over in my old 74 Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser station wagon. They then asked me about my seat belt (the car was built before the 3-point belt was standard, so it didn't have one), they asked me if I had any weapons in the storage compartment under the back seat, they asked if I had any dead bodies in there (no, really...they actually asked that), and other things. They finally noticed a crack in my windshield and gave me a fix-it ticket. But out of that entire list, only the seat belt is plausible reason for pulling me over and there's no fucking way they could have seen that from the passenger side of the vehicle while I was going through a green and they were stopped at a red light across the entire intersection.

So yeah, they were digging for things to write me up for. I had no way to get out of it without coming off as suspicious and getting hounded with more questions or perhaps a search.

[StarSword]

^Yeah, well, that's the one where you report the officer to the chain of command for being a twit.

[Borgholio]

^Yeah, well, that's the one where you report the officer to the chain of command for being a twit.

I actually did file a report against one officer once for his conduct. My neighbor across the street was being a bitch (as usual) and reported me to traffic enforcement for having my car parked in front of her house for three days (which it wasn't) so the traffic cop came and marked the tires and put a "move it within 72 hours" note...standard fare...no biggie. I wasn't angry at the officer, but I did have a few choice words for my neighbor though.

Well after verbally chewing out my neighbor, she raced off in her shitty Mercedes after the traffic cop. I thought it was because she expected my car to be towed and wanted to ask the officer why she only gave me a notice. Well an hour later, Officer Larry Hill of the Burbank PD shows up and tells me that my neighbor reported me for threatening the traffic cop's life.

I tried to explain the situation to him but he wouldn't hear any of it, he told me to move my car of be arrested for the felony crime of threatening a police officer. I complied, because I was honestly a bit scared of what would happen if I called him out on his bullshit. But when he left I filed a report against him with internal investigations. Surprise surprise, nothing ever came of it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yeah, kinda figured that. Out of curiosity, what was the reason for why charging the officer in your example would have been more expensive than charging a civilian? Is your union really that good or is there some procedural bullshit at work I'm unaware of?

The DA said that he didn't believe he could win the case and thus because of that it would be a waste of tax payer money to prosecute it.

Hahaha "Weaponized reasonable" No, nobody has ever said that. Not sure if that was a compliment...

Actually, that's a good bit less than I thought it would be, but still, 21% less chance of being charged, convicted, and serving long sentences is disturbing as fuck.

Yes, it is disturbing. It is very likely higher than the figure I gave just because the information is incomplete. Currently law enforcement agencies aren't required to report numbers on officer misconduct. That needs to change.

Well, I was mostly venting. It's not you I'm pissed at (seriously, has anyone every actually stayed mad at you?), it's your profession as a whole in the US. If more cops were as reasonable as you are, and if more departments were as proactive about firing the shitheads like yours appears to be from your earlier example, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Not that I'm aware of. But then again, at this point I'm starting to think that the "reasonable person standard" was based off of you.

Good to know and I understand. I get angry too at the injustice.

So basically this ain't ever gonna change.

I think body cams will go a long way towards changing it internally. So, I do think things will change.

[Kamakazie Sith]

1. Where the Hell do you learn about how exactly to handle being pulled over by an officer?

Here's what to do when you're pulled over from US law enforcement.

1. Try not to be a visible racial minority.

2. Keep your hands in plain sight at all times. Preferably, don't move them away from the 2 and 10 o'clock position on the steering wheel unless told to do so (like the officer asks for your insurance and you need to get the card out of the glovebox).

3. Be polite. Don't call the officer "dude" or "Bro" or "Homie". Call them sir if it's a male and mame if it's a female.

4. Do not volunteer information. Answer only questions asked. It's when you start babbbling that shit goes wrong. Just shut the fuck up unless you need to answer the officer's questions.

5. If you have a concealed carry permit and are carrying LET THE COP KNOW FIRST FUCKING THING. Even if your state doesn't require it. Just say "Sir/Mame, I have a valid CCW in the State of Blahblah and I am currently armed. Would you like me to surrender my weapon to you for the duration of the stop?" If they say yes, carefully withdraw the weapon, drop the magazine/open the cylinder, unload and safe it before handing it over. Most times though they'll probably just tell you to keep it holstered. In either case it usually puts them a little at ease if you're upfront and tell them first thing.

6. Know your fucking rights. I don't just mean your constitutional rights, I mean go look up state and local laws concerning shit like when they can and cannot search you or your vehicle. If they try to violate your rights, assert them, but remember Rule #3.

7. When in doubt lawyer the fuck up and be prepared to go to court.

Just to add to this...

8. Record your encounters with police. If you can record the encounters you see of police with others but don't get involved and stay out of the way.

[Mr. Coffee]

Yeah, body cams would go a little ways for keeping people level, but it'd also help if some locals and states would knock it off with harassing civilians filming them in public. Basically, I completely agree with you on the need for more accountability and transparency on the part of officers and agencies. That'd help a lot, but as long as voters remain apathetic shits the top down approach probably won't happen without some major shit going down.

[General Zod]

1. Where the Hell do you learn about how exactly to handle being pulled over by an officer?

Here's what to do when you're pulled over from US law enforcement.

1. Try not to be a visible racial minority.

2. Keep your hands in plain sight at all times. Preferably, don't move them away from the 2 and 10 o'clock position on the steering wheel unless told to do so (like the officer asks for your insurance and you need to get the card out of the glovebox).

3. Be polite. Don't call the officer "dude" or "Bro" or "Homie". Call them sir if it's a male and mame if it's a female.

4. Do not volunteer information. Answer only questions asked. It's when you start babbbling that shit goes wrong. Just shut the fuck up unless you need to answer the officer's questions.

5. If you have a concealed carry permit and are carrying LET THE COP KNOW FIRST FUCKING THING. Even if your state doesn't require it. Just say "Sir/Mame, I have a valid CCW in the State of Blahblah and I am currently armed. Would you like me to surrender my weapon to you for the duration of the stop?" If they say yes, carefully withdraw the weapon, drop the magazine/open the cylinder, unload and safe it before handing it over. Most times though they'll probably just tell you to keep it holstered. In either case it usually puts them a little at ease if you're upfront and tell them first thing.

6. Know your fucking rights. I don't just mean your constitutional rights, I mean go look up state and local laws concerning shit like when they can and cannot search you or your vehicle. If they try to violate your rights, assert them, but remember Rule #3.

7. When in doubt lawyer the fuck up and be prepared to go to court.

Just to add to this...

8. Record your encounters with police. If you can record the encounters you see of police with others but don't get involved and stay out of the way.

If you're going to record the police, make sure to tell them first or it can get your ass in trouble depending on your state. Secretly recording them is bad mojo in a few places, and especially Massachusetts.

[Kamakazie Sith]

If you're going to record the police, make sure to tell them first or it can get your ass in trouble depending on your state. Secretly recording them is bad mojo in a few places, and especially Massachusetts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glik_v._Cunniffe

Glik v. Cunniffe, 655 F.3d 78 (1st Cir. 2011) was a case at the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit that held that a private citizen has the right to record video and audio of public officials in a public place, and that the arrest of the citizen for a wiretapping violation violated the citizen's First and Fourth Amendment rights.

Yeah, I posted a wiki page. Deal with it. The important part is accurate.

[TheFeniX]

they asked if I had any dead bodies in there (no, really...they actually asked that),

They are literally fishing at that point, judging your reaction.

They finally noticed a crack in my windshield and gave me a fix-it ticket. But out of that entire list, only the seat belt is plausible reason for pulling me over and there's no fucking way they could have seen that from the passenger side of the vehicle while I was going through a green and they were stopped at a red light across the entire intersection.

To be ticketable, at least in Texas, the crack has to obscure your vision. Same thing for failing/passing an inspection. You could have likely fought the ticket and won if this wasn't the case. If it was big enough or placed where it did obscure your vision, it may have been easily noticeable by the officer and he just saved it for last to justify his stop if he didn't find anything else.

I've had an officer fish for information from me. He came up with a line about how a truck matching the description of mine was involved in a beer robbery at a convenience store. I made a Bud Light crack because I was sure that's what they stole (and it was). I also told the officer I'd be "monumentally stupid" to commit any crime in my truck and think I could get away without everyone knowing it was me.

For the record, this is my old truck. When I sold it, some kid in Katy bought it from the dealer. I STILL get phone-calls from friends saying "Dude, I just saw your truck in Katy!"

So yeah, they were digging for things to write me up for. I had no way to get out of it without coming off as suspicious and getting hounded with more questions or perhaps a search.

The cliche line "is there a problem officer?" actually works quite well. I've never been pulled over for something other than me being an idiot and driving too fast, but they always tell me that "Yes, sir, you were going a bit fast back there." However, he could say "I didn't think you had your seatbelt on and didn't realize it's not a cross-chest harness" then find something else to write you a ticket for. Thems the breaks.