Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Eleas »

This isn't a huge issue, internationally speaking, not given the numbers: only six people were wounded, one critically. But this is my city. This was a peaceful demonstration of feminists during March 8th, International Women's Day.

The police are calling it an altercation between extremists. And I am livid.

As I don't have the words, I'm posting my own translation of Gustav Almestad's words on the subject. They say it well.
It’s my kind they want to kill

This time, too, it was terrorism. A group of people who decided to go out armed on the International Women’s Day and through violence and fear demonstrate that no corner of the earth can be safe for those who want to see it improved. And it no longer mattered that a drowsy media again looked for neutral, impartial words in which to couch the deed, or that the event was swathed in intimations of equal brawls, of victims having voluntarily joined the extremist’s games. I could feel the fear in my own body, and for my part the illusion is finally gone. I knew that I am myself vulnerable and that a manifestation isn’t just a place of hope and participation, but also a place in which knives can swiftly end a spring day.

My kind they want to kill.

I always knew, felt it in my gut much too late.

Six people wounded in the attack and brought to the hospital, of them 25-year old Showan so seriously that as late as Monday morning he nursed life-threatening injuries and lay in a coma. As one of the founders of the group Football Supporters against Homophobia, Showan had earlier been outed by a site connected to the Swedes’ Party, and could thus very well have been deliberate targeted by the perpetrators. Still that prevarication. “A punch-up,” according to the first responders on the Police, and just as if attempted murder were a game of tit-for-tat there comes the jabbering about “extremists on the right” opposing “extremists on the left.” Renowned Nazis are arrested, yet their motives are pronounced unknown.

Listen, the motives of Nazis are never unknown. They arm themselves because March 8th is a day they hate. This, the perhaps most peaceful day of the year. And we have the gall to call it fighting? They respond to manifestations of support for those attacked by pasting new graffiti in schoolyards. They brag about this. Motives unknown?

Just as how “gang-related warfare” or “previously known to the Police” is now code for a murdered or wounded person being somehow at a remove, not part of the “we” that is simultaneously constructed, so this talk of a clash of extremists creates a false impression of the threat of fascism as understandable, predictable, possible to avoid. It suggests that violent activism on one’s own is a requisite part of victimhood. Just as you are made criminal in the media if you are murdered by a criminal, so are you made extremist when the knife stuck in your stomach is gripped by an extremist.

So the situation is made murky, through an impression that “we”, we needn’t be frightened – so long as we keep from attending that demonstration that might possibly attract a black balaclava. Through comforting fantasies of fascist violence as a sort of hooligan’s firm with an appointment to keep. As long as we sit at a distance, a safe distance. Hoping they’ll shape up. If we all did that, the threat would already have its effect, whether anybody admits it or not. The streets would already belong to the Nazis.

When the victims are too obviously innocents then the motives of the deed are instead thrown into question, in any way possible, from mistake to mental illness. Anything to avoid discussing Breivik and his cohorts’ hatred of feminism, anything to keep from admitting that racial constructs and skin color are important factors in understanding the terrorist Peter Mangs. Anything to avoid admitting how they’re also important factors in understanding why “we” weren’t unduly afraid of a systematic killer in our midst. Because some discover that it isn’t enough to avoid crowds chanting against fascism; they’re slain regardless, their bodies excluded from a constructed “we” that pretends to color-blindness.

After Kärrtorp an awakening seemed nigh – jesus they went for the women and kids! – but the “we” went back to sleep. Weren't a few violent leftists there? And this is in point of fact the desired effect of obfuscation: to grant some the ability to sit in the publisher’s office and discuss drain-pipes and the tone of the debate. To enable critique and the shying away from any manifestation that might pay host to a disagreeable speech or sign. To let people write reports on extremism that only count pegs without the context (fascism still won by 14-0). All in order to let oneself be tricked, at a safe distance from that ominous feeling in one’s body, a knowledge that fascism is here, in arms.

I stood there during the manifestation at La Mano in Stockholm, feeling hope and strength – but I was scared too. I have to be, to be able to defy that fear. And if you haven’t yet felt it in your body you have to trust the ones who have, because that’s how a true we is made. We so vastly outnumber them, and only with our bodies do we stand against them. We’re short on time, they’re murdering us out here.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Simon_Jester »

If there were violent leftists, then as far as I'm concerned they get a free pass because, well, Nazis. if you're willing to wear swastikas and prance around hailing victory left and right, then you've basically painted a big target on your forehead proclaiming "I should only be allowed to move around in public on sufferance and should be booted out of public space the moment violence is on the table!"
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Eleas »

Simon_Jester wrote:If there were violent leftists, then as far as I'm concerned they get a free pass because, well, Nazis. if you're willing to wear swastikas and prance around hailing victory left and right, then you've basically painted a big target on your forehead proclaiming "I should only be allowed to move around in public on sufferance and should be booted out of public space the moment violence is on the table!"
And yet, the leftists were labeled the true threat. Strange at first blush, but illustrative, as a followup article noted:
Because the basis of liberalism is a vigorous capitalism, socialist thoughts become more fraught than fascist ones. Sure, within liberalism there's any number of positions that clash with fascism, like for instance freedom of assembly, freedom of religion and freedom of expression, but they are and remain subordinate whenever the issue of capital mobility is raised. The capital has never had a problem working within a fascist framework; in Germany, the state offered free slave labor to BMW, bolstered Hugo Boss as a trademark and created Volkswagen. Capitalism, and thus liberalism, is fully capable of hibernating in a fascist society. But in a society developing towards the goals of the worker's movement, the state- and classless society, the pillars of capitalism and liberalism will be incrementally destroyed.

The above is something you need to keep in mind when looking at the peculiar medial dramaturgy arrayed in front of us. Liberal naivetë, self-centeredness, communist hatred and spite means it is of greater importance to indicate the left as being evil than the fascists. That's why there's a gut reflex to point toward the evil AFA [Anti-Fascistisk Aktion] or RF as soon as fascist violence is mentioned. SMR's members have killed, but the evil ones are AFA. A peculiar point of view unless one understands the deceptive thing about the image of liberalism as being something neutral.
Not sure I fully agree with the vigorous rhetoric, but fuck me if he doesn't have a point.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
Scrib
Jedi Knight
Posts: 966
Joined: 2011-11-19 11:59pm

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Scrib »

Simon_Jester wrote:If there were violent leftists, then as far as I'm concerned they get a free pass because, well, Nazis. if you're willing to wear swastikas and prance around hailing victory left and right, then you've basically painted a big target on your forehead proclaiming "I should only be allowed to move around in public on sufferance and should be booted out of public space the moment violence is on the table!"
So...if Nazis are around anyone else can get violent? Am I hearing you right?
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Simon_Jester »

Not quite. If Nazis start getting violent, everyone else has a reasonable license to eject them from the public space.

There are communist parties that played nicely with others and legitimately have a place in public discourse. There are and have been others that sponsored terrorism and violence, and who do not.

I feel the same basic argument applies to Nazis, but with greater force, because if you self-identify as a Nazi you are very explicitly saying "I embrace the legacy of fascism overthrowing the political order by violence and imposing its ideals by force."
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Broomstick »

Really? I always thought identifying as a Nazi meant "I think it's just grand to start a world war that kills 50 million people, enslave others and slaughter groups I don't like by the millions as if they were cattle".

No, I don't like Nazis.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16362
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Gandalf »

Broomstick wrote:Really? I always thought identifying as a Nazi meant "I think it's just grand to start a world war that kills 50 million people, enslave others and slaughter groups I don't like by the millions as if they were cattle".

No, I don't like Nazis.
Interesting. Do you also hold that the Democrats in the US are the party of slave protection because of their murky past?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Broomstick »

There are a still a few people today who actively participated in WWII.

There is no one left alive who used to own slaves in this country.

That said - modern people in the US who long to return to the days of slavery and all the other antebellum bullshit I hold in the same contempt as Nazis and neo-Nazis. However, your statement ignores that the modern Democratic Party has repudiated that aspect of their past, so they're more analogous to modern Germans who have rejected Nazism. German does not equal Nazi, and Democrat does not equal slaveholder.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16362
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Gandalf »

Before we go on, can you please explain why you went all spatial in response to what is essentially a discussion of group identification?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Gandalf wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Really? I always thought identifying as a Nazi meant "I think it's just grand to start a world war that kills 50 million people, enslave others and slaughter groups I don't like by the millions as if they were cattle".

No, I don't like Nazis.
Interesting. Do you also hold that the Democrats in the US are the party of slave protection because of their murky past?
No, because they are not the same party ideologically. The name stayed the same. Everything else changed.

Nazis are fucking Nazis.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Simon_Jester »

This is fairly straightforward, if one is not being obtuse about it.

National Socialism is a political philosophy that is quite explicit about:
-Demanding submission to dictatorship.
-Tolerating or even encouraging brutality on the part of its followers.
-Advocating the (predictably violent) subjugation of 'lesser' races by the 'greater.'

They have a strong history of thuggery and brutality, and there are few signs that this has changed. Similarly extreme fascist parties in the present day remain prone to political violence, as this illustrates.

Therefore, it is reasonable to have a very low tolerance for violence coming from Nazi parties. Even lower than normal. Because the Nazis have a strong track record of using political violence to create chaos, then exploiting the chaos by bootstrapping themselves into a stronger political position.

In short, we are dealing with an ideology that has proven itself both violent and recidivist.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Metahive
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2795
Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
Location: Little Korea in Big Germany

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Metahive »

Maybe we should ask the reverse, are there any redeemable features to Nazism? That is, of course, if you don't happen to be a racial supremacist, authoritarian, social darwinist and warmonger.

I can't think of any. Yeah, Hitler was pro animal welfare and against smoking, but those were his personal whims, not ideological cornerstones of the party.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula

O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Elheru Aran »

Metahive wrote:Maybe we should ask the reverse, are there any redeemable features to Nazism? That is, of course, if you don't happen to be a racial supremacist, authoritarian, social darwinist and warmonger.

I can't think of any. Yeah, Hitler was pro animal welfare and against smoking, but those were his personal whims, not ideological cornerstones of the party.
The main things I can think of are Germany's economic recovery after the Nazis took power and... uhh... the autobahn? Honestly I'm sure there were extenuating factors other than Nazism contributing to these, though. The economic recovery was probably as much due to the buildup towards a war footing as anything else... But feel free to plane me on this.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
Patroklos
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2577
Joined: 2009-04-14 11:00am

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Patroklos »

Metahive wrote:Maybe we should ask the reverse, are there any redeemable features to Nazism? That is, of course, if you don't happen to be a racial supremacist, authoritarian, social darwinist and warmonger.

I can't think of any. Yeah, Hitler was pro animal welfare and against smoking, but those were his personal whims, not ideological cornerstones of the party.
The only things I can think of is workers rights (I am thinking Strength Through Joy here) and embracing modernism. The problem is that these were just platitudes that were only applied publically or to a small fraction of people and territory. Strenght Through Joy existed alongside slave labor. The abolishment of some of the the old lingering class stuctures coincided with the SS pretending to be the new teutonic order. They liked new flashy technology but only for the their own ends and again they have the SS and others diving head first into mysticism. They had their national labor service which at its core was similar to what we are now trying to accomplish with Americorps, but it doubled as a political indocrination device.

So basically while you can draw the kernal of good ideas from Nazi policies in some cases, in their actual practice under Nazism they were always tainted. Which shouldn't really surprise anyone, every country has a culture and national mythos/ideological undercurrent that creeps into national initiatives, dicatorships are just more open about it and since their nature tends to be dispicable that creeps in to. That doesn't mean good can't be mined from the concepts though. Interstates are not evil because Nazis built them first.

I also think that we are far too liberal with the word Nazi. Very few of the the groups I have read about have anything but superficial connections to the Third Riech Nazis other than "are violent" and "are racists."
User avatar
Metahive
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2795
Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
Location: Little Korea in Big Germany

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Metahive »

Elheru Aran wrote:The main things I can think of are Germany's economic recovery after the Nazis took power and... uhh... the autobahn? Honestly I'm sure there were extenuating factors other than Nazism contributing to these, though. The economic recovery was probably as much due to the buildup towards a war footing as anything else... But feel free to plane me on this.
The economical recovery of Germany already started before the Nazis came to power, they just took all the credit for it and their "Kanonen statt Butter/Guns, not butter"- policy actually threatened to ruin it again, so they had to start the war and loot other countries to stay afloat.
Patroklos wrote:That doesn't mean good can't be mined from the concepts though. Interstates are not evil because Nazis built them first.
Here too, the construction had already started before Hitler's appointment and again, they just took all the credit for its completion.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula

O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Eleas »

Update: in the face of what frankly must be considered mendacity on part of the evening press and serious incompetence on part of the police's spokespeople, we now have a chronology that actually makes some amount of sense.

Please note that the official story as given by the Police presupposes that the Nazis, fresh home from Ukraine where they occupied a communist office, moved, fully armed, after having watched an MMA match while drinking beer at a pub, toward an annual and well-advertised demonstration just as it's supposed to conclude. This confluence of events is, apparently, pure coincidence. They are then, according to the police and evening press, rushed by demonstrators. At this point in events, one eyewitness reports, people already lie bleeding on the ground, and the Nazis are running. Yet the police and evening press confidently claim that this is a brawl instigated by the onrushing demonstrators.

I therefore have to ask whether the Swedish police and the evening press believe in stigmata, which seems to be the only way to explain the bleeding victims.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
Dr. Trainwreck
Jedi Knight
Posts: 834
Joined: 2012-06-07 04:24pm

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

No, it's just that extreme leftists hate policemen and state power while neofascists love both pathologically. The police is, in most cases, generally more rightwing and feel they have more things in common with fascists than anarchists.

That said, you have it pretty good up there. When your little thugs start getting used by the police against leftists, then you should begin to worry.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.

The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Eleas »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:That said, you have it pretty good up there. When your little thugs start getting used by the police against leftists, then you should begin to worry.
If it's all the same to you, I'd prefer to act before it gets that far.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
Dr. Trainwreck
Jedi Knight
Posts: 834
Joined: 2012-06-07 04:24pm

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

That's reasonable too.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.

The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by His Divine Shadow »

It's just gonna get worse, more violence, more unrest and social upheaval and simmering tensions between social groups. Not much you can do about it IMO.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Outlaw public exhibitions of Nazism in anything other than an educational or critical context? It's not a huge secret that Nazis still creep in here and there in Germany, but at least they can't publicly gather and commit violence without risking serious repercussions.
Image
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Nazis stab feminists after Malmö demonstration

Post by Broomstick »

Here in the US you can openly be a Nazi and Nazis have held public gatherings, but local police provide extra security (for which cost the Nazis can be changed at least part of the time) and anything criminal is cracked down on immediately. You're allowed to be a Nazi, but you're not allowed to break the law.

Also, most Nazi demonstrations/gatherings that I can recall have been vastly outnumbered by counter-demonstrators, who are also allowed to peaceably assemble and scream ugly things at the Nazis. Again, as long as you break no laws you're in the clear.

Mostly, the police show up to keep the two groups separated and arrest anyone who starts throwing things.

Then again, North American experience of Nazis is distinctly different than the European one.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Post Reply