A "vs." thread...

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 07:40am

OKay, we all know Trinity from "The Matrix." However, I also know of Nina Williams from the popular Tekken series of games (Namco).

Nina is an assassin in the Tekken series... and she pulls off all kinds of moves..

I know Trinity is probably going to top out on this one, but hey, at least give Nina a chance, no? Nina's still one of the quickest characters on the game...

In any case, if Trinity moved a bit closer to Nina's speed (as a human NOT in the Matrix), who would win in an overall fight? Or a mudwrestling competition, if you absolutely have to, although it is preferred that that is avoided.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 05:38pm

Or maybe not. [pouts]

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-03-17 06:35pm

How long till someone makes a lesbian joke?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-17 06:41pm

I agree, someone is going to take the bait sooner or later.

Trinity wins, even outside the Matrix her martial arts skills are going to be far beyond Nina's in every way.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 06:46pm

Durran Korr wrote:I agree, someone is going to take the bait sooner or later.

Trinity wins, even outside the Matrix her martial arts skills are going to be far beyond Nina's in every way.

Care to explain? (hint: that was the point of the thread) I realize that all the training .. stuff .. inside the Matrix develop everything, but what about Nina's abilities themselves? I mean, as a human outside the Matrix, Trinity can't conceivably move that fast. Furthermore, through the Tekken games, each character has to fight different levels of martial arts.. If you've played them, you'd know what I mean.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-03-17 06:49pm

How long before they're licking each other's labia? Half a minute?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-03-17 06:49pm

I'd put this to Nina, outside the Matrix, how strong could Trinity be?, it's like a Jedi and the Force, remove it, and the fighter is lost.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 06:50pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:How long before they're licking each other's labia? Half a minute?

I should hurt you.. you're lucky I'm frelling tired..

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-03-17 06:53pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:How long before they're licking each other's labia? Half a minute?

It's probably fortunate, according to most members here, that you and I were spared from the Trinity vs Mary Poppins horror. Let's not find out what they were trying to protect us from, okay?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-17 06:55pm

verilon wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:I agree, someone is going to take the bait sooner or later.

Trinity wins, even outside the Matrix her martial arts skills are going to be far beyond Nina's in every way.
Care to explain? (hint: that was the point of the thread) I realize that all the training .. stuff .. inside the Matrix develop everything, but what about Nina's abilities themselves? I mean, as a human outside the Matrix, Trinity can't conceivably move that fast. Furthermore, through the Tekken games, each character has to fight different levels of martial arts.. If you've played them, you'd know what I mean.

I'm vaguely familiar with Tekken.

Well, from the uploading sequence in the movie, it looks like basically every concievable form of martial arts is uploaded into the brains of the unplugged. Probably more knowledge than any normal human could ever attain in a lifetime. That will give her a huge edge, because there is really nothing that Nina can throw at Trinity that Trinity won't know how to deal with. It all depends on how physically fit Trinity is outside of the Matrix, which is something of an unknown.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 07:00pm

Durran Korr wrote:I'm vaguely familiar with Tekken.

Well, from the uploading sequence in the movie, it looks like basically every concievable form of martial arts is uploaded into the brains of the unplugged. Probably more knowledge than any normal human could ever attain in a lifetime. That will give her a huge edge, because there is really nothing that Nina can throw at Trinity that Trinity won't know how to deal with. It all depends on how physically fit Trinity is outside of the Matrix, which is something of an unknown.

This is true. However, you won't want to go by the standards of the Tekken movie (rather, you want to use what the game has to offer). Also remember that Nina is an assassin in the storyline of Tekken, which gives her a bit more stealth and agility than a lot of people. And Nina has been in all 4 Tekken games (Plus Tekken Tag), and she has been thrown against various forms of martial arts, given all the competitors in the competition for the Mishima Zaibatsu.

Furthermore, in the upload sequence, IIRC, each form is uploaded separately, just as the piloting for the Apache helicopter was uploaded separately from all the other aircraft, and just as Neo learned Jujitsu by itself, rather than other forms of martial arts.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-17 07:32pm

Remember that scene afterwards, where it cycles through a couple of different forms of martial arts that are being uploaded. Neo went through this for at least ten hours, indicating that a LOT of stuff is uploaded into the minds of the unplugged. With all the programs being uploaded, it is not difficult to imagine that a few could be glossed over in the process, which could be an explanation for why Trinity doesn't have the Apache program. Or maybe the Apache that we saw was a newer type that simply had not been uploaded to anyone yet.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 07:33pm

Durran Korr wrote:Remember that scene afterwards, where it cycles through a couple of different forms of martial arts that are being uploaded. Neo went through this for at least ten hours, indicating that a LOT of stuff is uploaded into the minds of the unplugged. With all the programs being uploaded, it is not difficult to imagine that a few could be glossed over in the process, which could be an explanation for why Trinity doesn't have the Apache program. Or maybe the Apache that we saw was a newer type that simply had not been uploaded to anyone yet.

Hmm... that's true, too. But we must also ask, how complete is the training? And how does her ability really stand?

Post by **Zaia** » 2003-03-17 07:35pm

verilon wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:How long before they're licking each other's labia? Half a minute?

I should hurt you.. you're lucky I'm frelling tired..

Wait a sec, ver--you mean, that wasn't supposed to be the point of the thread? *scratches head confusedly* Huh. Weird.

Love you, Hot Pants!! *blows kisses*

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-03-17 07:36pm

Moved to OSF.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-03-17 07:37pm

verilon wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:How long before they're licking each other's labia? Half a minute?

I should hurt you.. you're lucky I'm frelling tired..

Indeed... I have no problem with lesbian jokes as a matter of principle, but I demand that they be not lame!

Although I have to give the edge to Trinity; that girl really looks like she could take a licking and still come out on top.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 07:37pm

Zaia wrote:
verilon wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:How long before they're licking each other's labia? Half a minute?

I should hurt you.. you're lucky I'm frelling tired..
Wait a sec, ver--you mean, that wasn't supposed to be the point of the thread? *scratches head confusedly* Huh. Weird.

Love you, Hot Pants!! *blows kisses*

Or a mudwrestling competition, if you absolutely have to, although it is preferred that that is avoided.

Love ya, too, Demon Princess!! [blows kisses back]

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-17 07:46pm

verilon wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Remember that scene afterwards, where it cycles through a couple of different forms of martial arts that are being uploaded. Neo went through this for at least ten hours, indicating that a LOT of stuff is uploaded into the minds of the unplugged. With all the programs being uploaded, it is not difficult to imagine that a few could be glossed over in the process, which could be an explanation for why Trinity doesn't have the Apache program. Or maybe the Apache that we saw was a newer type that simply had not been uploaded to anyone yet.
Hmm... that's true, too. But we must also ask, how complete is the training? And how does her ability really stand?

Within the Matrix, the fighters appear to be nothing short of Grand Masters. It would seem likely that this knowledge as well as other mental aspects of fighting such as reaction time, judgment, technique, mental preparedness, and improvisational ability would carry over to the real world, but again her athleticism must complement these qualities in order for her to win. The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar appeared to be fairly in shape to me, with the exception of Mouse, and we have no reason to believe that Trinity is profoundly out of shape, so I would give her the edge. Without the vast amount of knowledge and mental capability she has been given, however, I doubt she would have a chance.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-03-17 07:47pm

What about introducing a third player onto the field? Personally, I like Kasumi (from the Dead Or Alive games) against Trinity any day of the week.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-03-17 07:52pm

What about introducing a third player onto the field? Personally, I like Kasumi (from the Dead Or Alive games) against Trinity any day of the week.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 07:56pm

Durran Korr wrote:Within the Matrix, the fighters appear to be nothing short of Grand Masters. It would seem likely that this knowledge as well as other mental aspects of fighting such as reaction time, judgment, technique, mental preparedness, and improvisational ability would carry over to the real world, but again her athleticism must complement these qualities in order for her to win. The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar appeared to be fairly in shape to me, with the exception of Mouse, and we have no reason to believe that Trinity is profoundly out of shape, so I would give her the edge. Without the vast amount of knowledge and mental capability she has been given, however, I doubt she would have a chance.

Also, then, if she is so used to fighting only in the Matrix, that would screw up her reaction time by a lot. I mean, if she is used to fighting at high rates of speed, she might overestimate (quite frequently) in the real world with Nina, as she is not used to fighting at a normal rate.

As for the athleticism, I am not so sure that Trinity would have the edge. Like I said, Nina is an assassin. That gives her an edge in some respects, because she's got the skills she needs - stealth, speed, agility - to carry out her missions. As well, Nina is quite flexible (as I am sure Trinity is), and she is very much in shape. Plus, she uses sheek clothing in order to have more graceful and quicker movement, whereas Trinity tends to wear something a bit more bulky.

Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:What about introducing a third player onto the field? Personally, I like Kasumi (from the Dead Or Alive games) against Trinity any day of the week.

I've never played DoA, so I wouldn't be able to say anything in that respect. I am only going to introduce what I know.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-17 09:04pm

Also, then, if she is so used to fighting only in the Matrix, that would screw up her reaction time by a lot. I mean, if she is used to fighting at high rates of speed, she might overestimate (quite frequently) in the real world with Nina, as she is not used to fighting at a normal rate.

Not necessarily. From Program and Final Flight of the Osiris, we know that the unplugged train in a multitude of different environments and ought to have reasonable adaptive skills anyway.

As for the athleticism, I am not so sure that Trinity would have the edge. Like I said, Nina is an assassin. That gives her an edge in some respects, because she's got the skills she needs - stealth, speed, agility - to carry out her missions. As well, Nina is quite flexible (as I am sure Trinity is), and she is very much in shape. Plus, she uses sheek clothing in order to have more graceful and quicker movement, whereas Trinity tends to wear something a bit more bulky.

No, Trinity would not have the edge in athleticism. Nina likely has far more extensive real world training. That said, Trinity's adequate athleticism & physical prowess coupled with her hugely advantageous mental enhancements will likely still be enough to overcome Nina. [/quote]

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-03-17 09:13pm

Durran Korr wrote:Not necessarily. From Program and Final Flight of the Osiris, we know that the unplugged train in a multitude of different environments and ought to have reasonable adaptive skills anyway.

True.. but what is the majority of her fighting skills? What has she shown, and preferred?

No, Trinity would not have the edge in athleticism. Nina likely has far more extensive real world training. That said, Trinity's adequate athleticism & physical prowess coupled with her hugely advantageous mental enhancements will likely still be enough to overcome Nina.

As I said before, Nina has to encounter many types of arts in the Mishima Zaibatsu Tournaments.. and not all of them are martial arts (read: Craig Marduk, King). If Trinity were to pull fast-reeling switches through styles, Nina would likely be able to adapt quickly, as well, as she has had to do so in the past (read: Unknown, Mokujin).

Furthermore, should Trinity be ensnared in a chain of Nina's, it could be fatal; many times it is impossible to get out of a chain combo of Nina's (she's not called the queen of chain moves for nothing!). Though there are some, even as skilled as Unknown (who knows every style of every Tekken character, and expertly, at that) that can get trapped in a combo, then Trinity may very well be flawed in that point, and might lose there.

However, the reasoning as for the different environments, that is all within the Matrix. The rules are so completely different between the Matrix and the real world, that Trinity may be able to adapt to the environment, but even that is inconclusive.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-03-17 09:23pm

Durran Korr wrote:It all depends on how physically fit Trinity is outside of the Matrix, which is something of an unknown.

I think that's the key factor. How much time would people spend training outside the Matrix when all their hand-to-hand battles take place inside computer programs where mental speed appears to matter more than phsyical conditioning.

Physical conditioning may help endurance, but I don't see how anyone from The Matrix would put themselves to the level of physical conditoning that someone who fights outside the Matrix would.

Basically, Trinity knows how to throw a kick, but will her body allow her to pull it off?

If Trinity does train for fighting outside of the Matrix, then she should be able to win; otherwise, I don't think her body will be able to pull off the moves she's used to performing when jacked in.

Oh, and Kasumi takes 'em both out.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-17 09:24pm

Are we talking about real-world combat or video game combat? Making real-world observations based on gameplay mechanics is extremely difficult. Nina's chain combos will not likely work out in real life as well as they do in Tekken. For example, in C&C, a relatively small squad of guys with guns can take down a tank; obviously, this would not be the case in real life. You have to take Nina out of the video game for her to fight in the real world, just as you have taken Trinity out of the Matrix.