Sarah Palin: Mr President, Nuke Russia

[Covenant]

I agree that the whole StarDestroyer.net thing is probably reason number one as to why there's not a ton of female posters.

If there was a need to make a less crude joke, a more elaborate one perhaps, sure - I agree. A less offensive joke? No. Sarah Palin deserved any amount of trash talk about herself by her actions.

Offensive jokes are fine--sometimes the more offensive they are the less they can be mistaken for an actual attack. That's the George Carlin methodology, especially when tied to a misanthropic stage persona. Crude and offensive humor is part of what makes the more miserable aspects of life tolerable.

Palin doesn't earn softball treatment just because she's a woman, that'd be sexist too. I just wouldn't recommend making the kind of jokes that seem to target her as a woman, since that's not really the point of why we all wish she'd get erased form the timeline. She's an easy target, it really shouldn't be hard to come up with some better jokes without making us look like women-hating hypocrites.

[Simon_Jester]

While I do think Mr Coffee is out of line, I would expect there to be a significant majority of males here just because the site is called StarDestroyer.net. If the site was called Panem.net or Ravenclaw.net the site would likely get more random women dropping in to see what it was about, while StarDestroyer.net is more likely to pique the interest of men than women.

That's probably true- although if you ask me, every little bit helps (or antihelps).

Once a woman does poke around on here, it's a very open question whether she'll want to stay. Anecdotally, of the three female SDN posters I can at least sort of say I 'know,' and who were ever particularly active participants here... Two have informally just left the board altogether and stopped posting (almost) entirely, because they couldn't put up with the tone anymore.

Of the ten or so male posters I 'know' to anything like the same degree of depth, the number is again two who have pretty much stopped posting and who seem to have considered the tone to be a major contributing factor.

Two out of three, versus two out of ten.

So yeah, I can't help but wondering if there's something SDN does that repels females, other than (or along with) just the name. I can't be the first person to think of this.

["Know" is here defined in terms of "well, how well can you ever really know anyone on the Internet?" Significantly more than a voice with an internet connection, to the point where you have a decent sense for their personality and can genuinely understand how they feel about things... but obviously not to the same depth that is possible with regular real life connections]

If there was a need to make a less crude joke, a more elaborate one perhaps, sure - I agree. A less offensive joke? No. Sarah Palin deserved any amount of trash talk about herself by her actions.

Offensive jokes are fine--sometimes the more offensive they are the less they can be mistaken for an actual attack. That's the George Carlin methodology, especially when tied to a misanthropic stage persona. Crude and offensive humor is part of what makes the more miserable aspects of life tolerable.

Palin doesn't earn softball treatment just because she's a woman, that'd be sexist too. I just wouldn't recommend making the kind of jokes that seem to target her as a woman, since that's not really the point of why we all wish she'd get erased form the timeline. She's an easy target, it really shouldn't be hard to come up with some better jokes without making us look like women-hating hypocrites.

That sums up my views fairly well too.

[Thanas]

If you think about SDN, that's actually a place filled with extremely diverse individuals. Diverse in lifestyle, interests and even the very places they live in. Maybe not so diverse in political opinion, but that's because being a creationist, for example, requires one to be a really dumb fuck, and this removes tens of millions of such dumb fucks from the very start.

Is the 5:1 or 10:1 ratio of males to females among the active posters reflective of this overall diversity? Is it because women are somehow inferior, or is it because of something else?

While I do think Mr Coffee is out of line, I would expect there to be a significant majority of males here just because the site is called StarDestroyer.net. If the site was called Panem.net or Ravenclaw.net the site would likely get more random women dropping in to see what it was about, while StarDestroyer.net is more likely to pique the interest of men than women.

It is the style. Males are more open to direct confrontation, women are not. They prefer knifes in the back, the others knifes in the front. Both styles have their values, but only one is the predominant here.

Anecdotally, of the three female SDN posters I can at least sort of say I 'know,' and who were ever particularly active participants here... Two have informally just left the board altogether and stopped posting (almost) entirely, because they couldn't put up with the tone anymore.

Let's be honest, your numbers do not work because at least one left due to political ideology and idiots talking about things they know nothing about. Also, it is a bit hypocritical to complain about the tone when one dished it out a lot.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think it's as simple as "knives in front/back." That strikes me as a little too stereotyped.

And while the main cause may be something entirely unrelated, my point is that it certainly does not help when the tone includes, say, "jokes about sex-as-dominance are funny and tolerated, the default perspective on gender issues is male-dominated, and when someone complains about it they're a politically correct whiner."

If you don't actively want to drive away women, it is at least prudent to make sure there's space for them in the discussion.

Common sense. If you're trying to be even a bit inclusive to any group, you need to make sure they aren't placed in a position where they can be insulted and degraded with impunity, while their opponents are immune to such treatment.

[Mr. Coffee]

Ok, seriously, some of you need your goddamn heads examined by trained professionals. How the hell some of you jackasses equate me making jokes at Sarah Palin's expense to there being some sort of "rape culture" here on SDN is quite possibly the most retarded thing since Trig Palin.

[AniThyng]

Perhaps it would have been better if I had raised the question in the actual "rape culture" thread rather than here. Still, it was a honest question on my part

[Mr. Coffee]

Perhaps it would have been better if I had raised the question in the actual "rape culture" thread rather than here. Still, it was a honest question on my part

Here on SDN I'd have to ask "what rape culture?" Fact is, this board is very confrontational, and that attracts a lot of argumentative assholes to congregate here. Some of those argumentative assholes happen to be women, who for the most part are every bit as intelligent as their male counterparts, just as argumentative, and just as capable as giving people shit as they are at receiving it (some are actually better at it then most of the guys). Also, being that from what I can tell in this thread that it's pretty much just men that seem to have gotten their panties in a wad over my tasteless joke, you'll forgive me if I point and laugh at the jackasses that keep wonking about there being a "rape culture" on this board.

If anything is getting raped around here it's common sense. In other words, the board is working as intended.

[AniThyng]

The gist I get is that "rape culture" is all pervasive and is a larger issue than merelythis board. You simply handily provided a real example of a joke involving sexual acts directed at a woman that could be used to ask how I as a poorly informed layman can tell. Certainly if we look at the original take culture thread it would seem the people in the article can use your defense.

[Thanas]

I don't think it's as simple as "knives in front/back." That strikes me as a little too stereotyped.

I am sure I could write a hundred page essay on the entire things but I'll leave that to you. I stand by my statement based on experiences in the real world. Point is, you don't see women threatening other people physically except in rare cases.

And while the main cause may be something entirely unrelated, my point is that it certainly does not help when the tone includes, say, "jokes about sex-as-dominance are funny and tolerated,

Oh please, as if the person in question has not posted much more hideous things.

the default perspective on gender issues is male-dominated, and when someone complains about it they're a politically correct whiner."

And what threads are you talking about here?

If you don't actively want to drive away women, it is at least prudent to make sure there's space for them in the discussion.

Last time I checked they are not banned, they can come and go as they want. Hate words are banned. Racial slurs are banned. We will not ban insults (which I will add can be used by both genders and are).

Common sense. If you're trying to be even a bit inclusive to any group, you need to make sure they aren't placed in a position where they can be insulted and degraded with impunity, while their opponents are immune to such treatment.

WTF are you on about? Who here is immune to being insulted? The only ones who are supposed to be that are admins and mods and even they let plenty of things slide.

[Mr. Coffee]

The gist I get is that "rape culture" is all pervasive and is a larger issue than merelythis board. You simply handily provided a real example of a joke involving sexual acts directed at a woman that could be used to ask how I as a poorly informed layman can tell. Certainly if we look at the original take culture thread it would seem the people in the article can use your defense.

Fun thing is we covered the topic of humor being a cause of "rape culture" months ago in that Daniel Tosh thread, but some of these dumb motherfuckers have the attention span of fruit flies and don't remember. I'm sure we'll end up rehashing this same tired shit again.

[Mr. Coffee]

And while the main cause may be something entirely unrelated, my point is that it certainly does not help when the tone includes, say, "jokes about sex-as-dominance are funny and tolerated,

Oh please, as if the person in question has not posted much more hideous things.

While I'm thinking about it, Thanas is right. I've said far, far worse things about people (some of them users and or mods/admins of this very board). Didn't hear a massive whine fest over that shit, but I make fun of a female politician and suddenly some of you lose your shit.

Hypocrisy is a stinky cheese, people.

[Scrib]

The simple counter is of course that some things are so over-the-top and detached from reality that they are inherently not credible.

[Thanas]

Coffee, you weren't the one meant by that comment.

[K. A. Pital]

The simple counter is of course that some things are so over-the-top and detached from reality that they are inherently not credible.

Shutting up Palin with pornstar dick is over the top and detached from reality, too.

[Scrib]

The simple counter is of course that some things are so over-the-top and detached from reality that they are inherently not credible.

Shutting up Palin with pornstar dick is over the top and detached from reality, too.

True. The counter to that is of course that jokes about sex as an act of degradation and claiming that women got promoted for sucking dick are far less detached from reality than say...wanting to shoot her at Russia from her home. YMMV on where you draw the line.

[Mr. Coffee]

The simple counter is of course that some things are so over-the-top and detached from reality that they are inherently not credible.

Bullshit. It's called humor, it's completely subjective. You might not find it funny, but i do, therefore I give no fucks if it offends you. Don't like it? Don't read my posts.

[Mr. Coffee]

The simple counter is of course that some things are so over-the-top and detached from reality that they are inherently not credible.

Shutting up Palin with pornstar dick is over the top and detached from reality, too.

True. The counter to that is of course that jokes about sex as an act of degradation and claiming that women got promoted for sucking dick are far less detached from reality than say...wanting to shoot her at Russia from her home. YMMV on where you draw the line.

Wait, are you seriously fucking suggesting that my joke was directed at all women and not at Sarah Palin speciffically?

[Scrib]

I did not mean that you were specifically calling out all women in your joke no.

[Mr. Coffee]

I did not mean that you were specifically calling out all women in your joke no.

So then why are you still going on about misogyny in regards to board culture? If you understood that I was talking about a specific person and not generalizing about all women in a sexist manner (you know, actual fucking misogyny), why did you even start this goddamned line of argument in the first place? You do understand that I am, at the very moment of typing this, imagining that you have a literal dick growing from your forehead?

[Scrib]

I'll go back to the nuclear answer: if you call a black person a nigger or imply that they should be lynched does that begin and end where your breath does?

I mean, you can easily argue (as Stas does I think) that the situations are not comparable and women don't get to own degradation-through-sex (we often insult male politicians for bowing to other interests in this way) or the "casting couch" (this is the more dubious one imo) but I find the argument you chose weaker than this.

[Thanas]

I'll go back to the nuclear answer: if you call a black person a nigger or imply that they should be lynched does that begin and end where your breath does?

Be careful using those words or you might get banned here.

[Scrib]

I'll go back to the nuclear answer: if you call a black person a nigger or imply that they should be lynched does that begin and end where your breath does?

Be careful using those words or you might get banned here.

Both black and lynched? I assume stereotypes are fine? Do I do the star thing that has become the get out of jail free card or do I put them in speech marks or shall I resort to the "insulting black people using a very specific racial slur" tactic?

[Losonti Tokash]

Man, if anyone wasn't sure this board has a problem with women, I bet this thread would have a solid chance of convincing them. Just look at how invested people are in making rape jokes and that we've even got a mod just throwing around stereotypes to explain why the board drives women away.

[Thanas]

Man, if anyone wasn't sure this board has a problem with women, I bet this thread would have a solid chance of convincing them. Just look at how invested people are in making rape jokes and that we've even got a mod just throwing around stereotypes to explain why the board drives women away.

It is to my understanding pretty much the accepted opinio communis in social theory that men are socialized to be more confrontational and aggressive, starting at an early age. If you have research to show that this is not the case, I would be interested in viewing it.

[Mr. Coffee]

I'll go back to the nuclear answer: if you call a black person a nigger or imply that they should be lynched does that begin and end where your breath does?

Why would I say that? I'm not a racist asshole, but if I were to insult a person of color I'd go about it in the same manner I went after Palin, tailored for the individual based on what I think of them as a person.

Nice try though, but you're about as transparent as the void between Palin's ears.