Adolfo Suarez (1st Spanish democratic president) dies

[Murazor]

From the BBC

Spain's first post-Franco PM, Adolfo Suarez, dies at 81

Spain's ex-PM Adolfo Suarez, who guided the nation through the turbulent years following the death of fascist dictator Francisco Franco, has died at 81.

Mr Suarez was taken to hospital on Monday suffering from a respiratory infection.

King Juan Carlos turned to him upon Franco's death in 1975 to try to unite Spain's disparate political factions.

Mr Suarez served as prime minister until 1981 and became one of the country's most respected politicians.

He had been suffering from Alzheimer's disease for about a decade, and died on Sunday afternoon at Madrid's Centro Clinic hospital.

King Juan Carlos has paid tribute, calling Mr Suarez an exceptional colleague and a true friend.

In a televised message, the king said Mr Suarez had been "guided at every turn by his loyalty to the crown and all that it represents, the defence of democracy, the rule of law, unity and the diversity of Spain".

'They changed history'

Mr Suarez's son, Adolfo Suarez Illana, praised both his father's and the king's role in the post-Franco period.

He said: "Thanks to the king, he was head of government. Thanks to the king, he was able to do what he liked at a unique moment in the history of Spain. Together, they changed the course of history."

Mr Suarez was a relatively unknown Francoist official in 1975, and faced criticism by both the left and right following his appointment by the king.

But in 1977 Mr Suarez contested and won Spain's first democratic elections since World War Two.

He moved to legalise political parties, including the communists, and oversaw the formation of a constitution that was adopted in 1978.

He was also noted as a calming voice during the tense period surrounding the attempted coup by Francoists on 23 February 1981.

Former PM Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero told Reuters: "Prime Minister Suarez's political career calls to mind the highest spirit of our democratic transition: recognition of dissenting voices, promotion of tolerance and the practice of dialogue.

"Thanks to that attitude he had the capacity to forge great agreements."

The man had been crippled by a particularly bad case of alzheimer, so seeing him go is not quite as sad as if he had been healthy, seeing that his apparently rather considerable suffering has ended. Still, this is certainly a tragic, if only because the man was still something of a symbol.

I cannot say that I much cared for his politics, but his actions were absolutely critical for the democratization of Spain and, by all accounts, he was a very brave man. Spain owes him an enormous debt, although I am pretty sure most (including most of our politicians) don't really care.

*sigh*

[Thanas]

He was a nationalist, but an important figure on the road to democracy. It is sad to see him go, especially considering the state of separatism in Spain.

[K. A. Pital]

He was a nationalist, but an important figure on the road to democracy. It is sad to see him go, especially considering the state of separatism in Spain.

What is sad is not the Catalan people's wish for independence but the EU's explicit threat of expunging Catalonia if it ever becomes independent. It is also true that a lot has changed between the 1980s and 2010s. Support for Catalan sovereignity and independence has been much lower even in the 1990s, but in the 2000s support has soared to levels which even the EU can no longer ignore.

What is sad is how Spain's bullying has made small countries which themselves are the result of separatism, including countries with a good human rights record such as Lithuania, to revoke support for Catalan independence.

That is sad. State of separatism in Spain, considering the hideous corruption of the central government and the clearly secular, progressive views of the Catalan separatists, is not sad.

[Thanas]

What is sad is not the Catalan people's wish for independence but the EU's explicit threat of expunging Catalonia if it ever becomes independent.

WTF are you talking about? Unlike some nations, the EU does not have a habit of invading other nations if they decide to break apart.

[K. A. Pital]

What is sad is not the Catalan people's wish for independence but the EU's explicit threat of expunging Catalonia if it ever becomes independent.

WTF are you talking about? Unlike some nations, the EU does not have a habit of invading other nations if they decide to break apart.

Brussels warned on Monday that the Spanish northeastern region of Catalonia would no longer be an EU member state if it becomes independent from Spain. ... The warning came after European Commission vice-president Joaquin Almunia said on Monday that if part of a member state becomes independent, "the segrated part is not an EU member."

http://www.euractiv.com/video/brussels- ... ve-eu-9185

Catalonia would be expunged from the EU if it secedes via a peaceful referendum that only a Spanish nationalist wouldn't call free and fair for obviously biased reasons. There you have it. Of course the EU won't invade Catalonia - it just threatened to expel it.

[Thanas]

The word you are looking for is expelled, not expunged. The latter carries a whole lot of negative connotation, as in "indian tribes were expunged". And of course they would not be members of the EU because as it has been quite clear from the start:

When a part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that state, e.g.because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a newly independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and thetreaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory

C 84 E/422, Official Journal of the European Union, 03.04.2004

And this is only fair, for how can you expect a free nation to be bound by the treaties of a nation which it wants no part of?

Also, any such nation would probably be admitted into the EU far quicker than any other (and if not in the EU, it would probably get Schengen immediately).

[K. A. Pital]

Also, any such nation would probably be admitted into the EU far quicker than any other (and if not in the EU, it would probably get Schengen immediately).

I think we will have the opportunity to see what happens in reality quite soon.

And this is only fair, for how can you expect a free nation to be bound by the treaties of a nation which it wants no part of?

What if the nation wishes to stay inside the EU? Catalonia has expressed such a wish unambigiously.

The latter carries a whole lot of negative connotation, as in "indian tribes were expunged".

If people who wish to stay inside an alliance will be expelled, then this clearly has negative consequences for them.

[Thanas]

What if the nation wishes to stay inside the EU? Catalonia has expressed such a wish unambigiously.

Then they can petition the EU. But really, what do you expect here to happen? Treaties are between specific parties. If one party to the treaty still exists and there is a new state in addition to it, why should EU law apply to them by Fiat? Wouldn't that be exactly the "bound to the EU for all eternity and vice versa" scenario nobody wants?

The latter carries a whole lot of negative connotation, as in "indian tribes were expunged".

If people who wish to stay inside an alliance will be expelled, then this clearly has negative consequences for them.

Yes, but they will not be expunged. I can't believe you do not know the negative connotations of that word.

[K. A. Pital]

Wouldn't that be exactly the "bound to the EU for all eternity and vice versa" scenario nobody wants?

It would, actually, because at the same time there's no orderly exit procedure for EU members states. So of course that's not acceptable, and states should be given a clear exit procedure if at some point in the future they no longer want to be part of the EU. What Germany and others did to Greece (blackmail and collapse of government immediately after announcing a secession referendum) is not giving me high hopes that exiting the EU is even possible.

Yes, but they will not be expunged. I can't believe you do not know the negative connotations of that word.

Okay, let's say they will be expelled fully according to EU legislation, no negative connotations then.

[Thanas]

Wouldn't that be exactly the "bound to the EU for all eternity and vice versa" scenario nobody wants?

It would, actually, because at the same time there's no orderly exit procedure for EU members states. So of course that's not acceptable, and states should be given a clear exit procedure if at some point in the future they no longer want to be part of the EU. What Germany and others did to Greece (blackmail and collapse of government immediately after announcing a secession referendum) is not giving me high hopes that exiting the EU is even possible.

Well, Greece always could leave the EU, they just were not willing to do so after it became known it would not have changed one thing (for example, the pipe dream of "we'll just reintroduce the Drachme and then devalue it like crazy" would not have worked as the debts were always going to be guaranteed in EUR and have to be paid with such). In any case, such a scenario would have been an extremely bad way to conduct business, you can't just take loan after loan and then decide to just take the money and run.

Besides, the economy would have been even worse off then as Greece needs the common market to survive.

Okay, let's say they will be expelled fully according to EU legislation, no negative connotations then.

Fine with me, but maybe it is more like they never were a member as they are supposed to be a new state.

[K. A. Pital]

Reintroducing the drachma could've made exports more competitive, which could create an industrial revival in the short term. Even though debts would be guaranteed, their repayment would be easier. There's no problem with trading in a common market without being part of the EMU, see Czech Republic.

[Thanas]

Reintroducing the drachma could've made exports more competitive, which could create an industrial revival in the short term.

Maybe. Or maybe the shipping industry would have collapsed as they would be taxed as non-EU shippers, thereby ending the competitive advantage. Tourism would have been hindered. I have not seen a study done that actually suggested introducing the drachme would have done anything except lead to inflation and screw over the pensioners.

[Murazor]

That is sad. State of separatism in Spain, considering the hideous corruption of the central government and the clearly secular, progressive views of the Catalan separatists, is not sad.

Hmmm?

Exactly where are you getting your information, SB?

Not that the Spanish central government is honest (they aren't) or trustworthy (I'd trust them about as far as I could throw Madrid), but the main corruption issues happen in the regional/local level. And Catalan politicians are no exception there (indeed, they are somewhat above average).

As for the "progressive views" thing... Not really. CiU is still the main factor in this and they are about as progressive as the ruling PP party, for most intents and purposes. Indeed, there have been some fairly startling displays of xenophobia in Catalonia in the last few years.

Now, Catalonia can have its independence if they really want it, as far as I am concerned, but what you are saying sounds like spindoctored separatist propaganda. Much like Spanish nationalist propaganda, that has about one grain of truth and ninety nine of bullshit.

[Oskuro]

Pretty much what Murazor said. The whole separatism issue is extremely complicated by how it has been used for decades as an easy electoral lure for pro-catalanists parties. Catalan politicians, particularly CiU, have been very transparent in their bid for power, and have no qualms, for example, about admitting that catalonian independence would not result in any significant changes in the cutback policies they began implementing even before the central government did.

Thin is, support for separatism has spiked as a result of the economic crisis and the policies that resulted from it, so it would be sad for Catalonia to become independent to just stay the same. As a reporter told Artur Mas (current Catalonian "president") after making him admit to how things won't improve: "...maybe people will end up saying that against Spain we lived better"

The problem that afflicts the entirety of the current Spanish territory is a corrupt political structure that, now that they feel threatened, are showing how very nasty they are (we're talking blatant media manipulation, rewriting of history, meddling with the justice system, among others).

Suarez's death is poignant, in my opinion, because things haven't really changed that much. Democracy was instated, yes, but in a mostly superficial level, the bases of power have pretty much remained in the same hands (with the same ideologies).

But it is also.... let's say "interesting" (to not say depressing) in how political rivals have used his passing for their own benefit, to get the photo op. And how is is conveniently omitted from his memorials that, despite his role as the first democratic president, he had been part of Franco's regime prior.


In my opinion as someone born (and living) in Spain who does not identify as spanish... The EU would need to annex the entire country, if only so politicians have a higher authority to answer to.

[K. A. Pital]

That is sad. State of separatism in Spain, considering the hideous corruption of the central government and the clearly secular, progressive views of the Catalan separatists, is not sad.

Hmmm?

Exactly where are you getting your information, SB?

Not that the Spanish central government is honest (they aren't) or trustworthy (I'd trust them about as far as I could throw Madrid), but the main corruption issues happen in the regional/local level. And Catalan politicians are no exception there (indeed, they are somewhat above average).

As for the "progressive views" thing... Not really. CiU is still the main factor in this and they are about as progressive as the ruling PP party, for most intents and purposes. Indeed, there have been some fairly startling displays of xenophobia in Catalonia in the last few years.

Now, Catalonia can have its independence if they really want it, as far as I am concerned, but what you are saying sounds like spindoctored separatist propaganda. Much like Spanish nationalist propaganda, that has about one grain of truth and ninety nine of bullshit.

I don't mean the Catalan separatists to be saints. However, their views are secular, democratic, aimed at upholding human rights. I am comparing them to other nationalist separatists that want to build clerical or ethnocratic states, and they do seem to be better than the average bunch of separatists out there. That's what I mean by progressive. I know it's not much, but it is still something.

Progressive as in 'left-wing progressive', that's a different thing. It is very hard to find a real politician like this in Europe since quite a while. I am kind of fond of the Republican Left in Catalonia, but I understand they are a minority, even if the second-biggest.

What you and Oskuro say makes me kind of sad, when I visited Barcelona it did seem that quite a few people supported independence coupled with some social reform. But if the reforms won't come, the point of independence would be lost.

[Murazor]

I don't mean the Catalan separatists to be saints. However, their views are secular, democratic, aimed at upholding human rights. I am comparing them to other nationalist separatists that want to build clerical or ethnocratic states, and they do seem to be better than the average bunch of separatists out there. That's what I mean by progressive. I know it's not much, but it is still something.

Well, no, they are not.

They certainly don't want to create a religious state (though CiU is not particularly without friends in the Catholic church), although in the case of independence one can expect linguistic discrimination (there is some relatively minor amount of that going at the moment, as one of the topics in the pantomime between Madrid and Barcelona) and probably some pressure against immigration.

The nebulous goal of the hardcore CiU supporters (in as much as there is one, past "independence") is turning Catalonia into a respectable, modern European state ala France. However, there is neither consistent ideology, nor much more than the vaguest outline of a route to accomplish this.

Esquerra Republicana (Republican Left, as you called them) might want something else (I honestly don't know), but they are in no position to get it done, because CiU is in control of the separatist part of the discourse these days.

In short, don't expect nuttery from the Catalan separatists, because they aren't nuts, but don't expect miracles. Even good sense and honesty is probably too much to hope for,

I am kind of fond of the Republican Left in Catalonia, but I understand they are a minority, even if the second-biggest.

This is correct.

Barcelona, of course, has a large progressive presence. However, the Catalonian inlands tend towards the conservative, strongly. It can be conservative separatism, but conservative at any rate.

What you and Oskuro say makes me kind of sad, when I visited Barcelona it did seem that quite a few people supported independence coupled with some social reform. But if the reforms won't come, the point of independence would be lost.

There is really no serious hope of large scale social reform in the event of Catalonian independence. Not with the crowd currently at the help, at any rate.

Blaming Madrid is something of a popular tradition in Catalonia (understandable: Catalonia historically has a fair amount of things to blame Madrid for) and the current discourse goes that Catalonia is on hard times because of central government thievery (while government policies haven't helped any and arguably have worsened things, the Catalonian politicians have also mismanaged things in their end and -in any case- this is a major crisis that has hit Spain harder than most). This has provided both the central and Catalan governments with a much needed external enemy of sorts (although a feeble one and it is almost certain that some in the PP miss the days in which ETA was an obvious and totally acceptable bogeyman).

[Irbis]

WTF are you talking about? Unlike some nations, the EU does not have a habit of invading other nations if they decide to break apart.

Yeah, the only thing good ol' EU does (or rather, just about half of its member states) is stomping when convenient on small, weak nations that were conquered in the past. I wonder how the 'you can't leave regardless of what we do to you, blabla inviolable borders' thing works for all of these.

Why should, say Germans who lived in the border area for 500 years in east Belgium, Alsace, Tirol, or south Denmark not allowed to peacefully vote to change country if they feel mistreated in old one? Would that be too much democracy for EU? Especially after EU pushed that on a few states it borders?

Incidentally, there is precedent of both changing country allegiance by vote and redrawing supposedly inviolable borders in 1990, which is also example of a state de facto annexing another one where government just fell. Where was that, I wonder?

But really, what do you expect here to happen? Treaties are between specific parties. If one party to the treaty still exists and there is a new state in addition to it, why should EU law apply to them by Fiat?

Because they were a part of EU, party to all necessary treaties, and the only thing that happened is the change in leadership of part of that territory?

The only precedent of leaving one state while in EU/EC, Greenland, somehow still was a part of it and had to leave by separate treaty. All the recent 'if you want to leave from under our boot we will make sure you will regret it' posturing is yet another example of how "well" minorities can be treated in EU while the other members try to look elsewhere.

And in reverse, why east Germany was suddenly in EU without being party to any EU treaty?

[Irbis]

In my opinion as someone born (and living) in Spain who does not identify as spanish... The EU would need to annex the entire country, if only so politicians have a higher authority to answer to.

I don't have any first-hand experiences with Catalan separatism, but I can sympathize with two I did witness personally, Scottish and Silesian ones, especially after listening to scary speeches of 'main' branch of politics in both countries about them.

I wonder if EU wouldn't be genuinely better off like you say, with dissolving nation states and making EU a quasi-state consisting of smaller, Switzerland sized euroregions. These would be IMHO more manageable, democratic, and responsible before its population. Hopefully it would also get rid of primitive, XIX version of European nationalisms once there wouldn't be any big entities capable of easily bullying smaller EU members or internal minorities.

[Tiriol]

Because they were a part of EU, party to all necessary treaties, and the only thing that happened is the change in leadership of part of that territory?

If you think that an entire region becoming its own independent country is simply a change of leadership, you are deluded.

And in reverse, why east Germany was suddenly in EU without being party to any EU treaty?

East Germany as an independent state ceased to exist, numbnuts. Its former territories became part of the Federal Republic of Germany which was a member of the EU. Is that so hard to understand?

[K. A. Pital]

East Germany as an independent state ceased to exist, numbnuts. Its former territories became part of the Federal Republic of Germany which was a member of the EU. Is that so hard to understand?

So if one EU state annexes a non-EU state, this automatically incorporates the territories in the EU. If a part of EU state leaves the parent state to become indepenent, it is automatically expelled. Am I the only person who sees here an "enter for a penny, leave for a pound"?

[Thanas]

First off, a state can leave the Union. Nobody denies that. So it is not a "you can't ever leave" as some claim.

Why should, say Germans who lived in the border area for 500 years in east Belgium, Alsace, Tirol, or south Denmark not allowed to peacefully vote to change country if they feel mistreated in old one? Would that be too much democracy for EU? Especially after EU pushed that on a few states it borders?

Well, they can change country. Freedom of movement and all that. And if they are enough to form a viable country and vote overwhelmingly in favor for it over a longer period of time then I'd be ok with it.

Incidentally, there is precedent of both changing country allegiance by vote and redrawing supposedly inviolable borders in 1990, which is also example of a state de facto annexing another one where government just fell. Where was that, I wonder?

The GDR ceased to exist via treaty. It was a deal between equals, not a violent overthrow of a Government. It was the will of the people, in fair and free elections.

Because they were a part of EU, party to all necessary treaties, and the only thing that happened is the change in leadership of part of that territory?

No, by leaving they chose to repudiate the decisions of those powers preceding them. It is like deciding to disown your family but still wanting to get the inheritance.

I don't have any first-hand experiences with Catalan separatism, but I can sympathize with two I did witness personally, Scottish and Silesian ones, especially after listening to scary speeches of 'main' branch of politics in both countries about them.

There is an active Silesian seperatist movement? Total news to me, what do they want and why do they exist?

I wonder if EU wouldn't be genuinely better off like you say, with dissolving nation states and making EU a quasi-state consisting of smaller, Switzerland sized euroregions. These would be IMHO more manageable, democratic, and responsible before its population. Hopefully it would also get rid of primitive, XIX version of European nationalisms once there wouldn't be any big entities capable of easily bullying smaller EU members or internal minorities.

It might be a good idea one we have a true EU state. But as long as the EU is just a club without political representation I think it would accomplish little but balkanism.

[K. A. Pital]

It is like deciding to disown your family but still wanting to get the inheritance.

It is more like disowning a known wife-beater in this case, Thanas. You should know how afwul the Francoist fascists behaved in Catalonia. Their petty revenge extended well into the 1970s, they even refused to build a proper public water supply in Barcelona, not to mention the suppression of the Catalan language. Not that Catalonia hasn't seen better days with Spain in the 1990s, but here's the result of the very recent politics:

Note the steadily rising green line.

There is an active Silesian seperatist movement? Total news to me, what do they want and why do they exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Autonomy_Movement

[Thanas]

Stas that chart is to small too read.

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit:
The Silesians seem to enjoy no popular support and I fail to see what their grievances with Poland actually are.

[K. A. Pital]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... la0611.png