The Scorpion and S8472 thread

[DaveJB]

There was actually at least one more 8472 pilot who repeated their intention of genocide in the second part of the story, so at least as of the time the story took place I don't think it was just the viewpoint of one particularly pissed-off pilot.

But even if we grant that 8472 were utterly impossible to reason with, and be extra-generous and assume that letting their invasion continue would have let them establish enough of a beach-head that there'd have been no hope of stopping the invasion, Janeway's actions are still inexcusable, because all that her agreement with the Borg would ever have achieved was getting Voyager home a little quicker. Long-term, they'd have still been a threat to the Delta Quadrant, and eventually the rest of the galaxy. She should have foreseen that the Borg would betray them, and been thinking of ways to subvert their alliance and cause whatever damage they could. Heck, she even had a golden opportunity after the Borg betrayed them, as she could have given Seven back to the Borg with some sort of virus or invasive program - and they should have known from the I, Borg/Descent incident that such things could cause at least some damage - and failed to seize it.

[Tribble]

Not to mention that had the Borg successfully used the modifications to assimilate S8472 and duplicate their tech, they would have become an order of magnitude more powerful than they already were. Sure S8472 may have been defeated... but you might have ended up with Borg ships having their weapons at disposal!

[PREDATOR490]

Just rewatched the first part. The second part does not matter because the decision to ally with the Borg is made in the first. Since Watchman is arguing we cannot use later facts to judge the decision then the information Janeway has is all she has to justify her position.

During this episode - Voyager tries to beam the bioship away and use a tractor beam. Not happy with the results, Janeway sends a team to actively poke around the bioship.
Not to mention the away team does end up poking around the bioship which has already suffered internal damage from Borg attacks. When the pilot returns it crashes through a wall and takes out two Borg Drones walking down the corridor with the away team then smacks Kim.

The Doctor says that Kim was infected by stray cells in the wound - That does not sound intentional like the Pilot was injecting venom rather than S8472's biology is dangerous. So Janeway has decided genocide is justified because of an accidental infection.

As for Kes - This episode has her demonstrating unreliability at least twice and her information is sketchy at best.
During the briefing Kes says that IF the information she has gotten from S8472 is true. That is a mighty big IF which should demand further investigation.
Janeways idea of an alliance with the Borg rested on the idea the Borg were desperate but that information comes via Kes's unreliable account. How funny would it have been if Kes got it wrong and the Borg were not THAT desperate ?
Kes cannot be taken as a reliable source of information let alone being able to judge the state of a war by using a dodgy method of gaining that information.

Kes says it is an invasion and they mean to destroy everything - That is the most alarming part of her information and it should still require more investigation

The key distinction Voyager need to make was if S8472 were invading the Borg or if they actually meant to invade the galaxy.

S8472 have witnessed an armed away team walking around a Borg vessel unharmed messing around one of their ships then hovering over a Borg planet.

Part 2 is worthless to determine S8472's intentions because the well has been poisoned which In The Flesh supports.
S8472 saw Voyager was aiding the Borg
S8472 took that as a representation of the Federation allying with the Borg
Thus any later communication is useless because S8472 consider Voyager and the Federation as they enemy.

S8472 intend to purge the galaxy of the Federation and Borg - No surprise there since Voyager was helping them develop weapons that would do the same to them. Something they learned by using Kes to spy.

[DaveJB]

Oh, I'm not claiming that the second part justifies Janeway's initial decision. At best it would only validate it in hindsight, and even then there would be a ton of questions over her actions after that decision was made.

What I do think the second part shows is that 8472's initial intention actually was to destroy all life in the galaxy, based on the fact that their only two communications (apparently from two different pilots) both relay that message. However, what Voyager and the Borg were likely off the mark on was their underlying motives; it was assumed that 8472 were raging, implacable xenophobes, when it seems more likely they were just supremely pissed off and believed that they had an insurmountable tactical advantage (because, well, they DID). When Voyager came along and blew up a bunch of their ships it probably made 8472 think about the situation in a calmer, more rational manner, and led to their espionage plan and, eventually, peace.

[Tribble]

Additionally Janeway did not follow the Prime Directive, and this is one of the few times where it should have applied. I don't remember her trying to contact another S8472 ship while broadcasting that Voyager is not involved with the Borg, the rest of the galaxy isn't either, and quite frankly ur doing us a great service by wiping them out thank you very much. She should have at least considered the possibility that Voyager's actions were what provoked the response. Instead, she made a bee-line to the nearest Borg planet without giving it a second thought.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually, we do have a precedent for Starfleet's/the Federation's views on "Aiding the enemy." From DS9's "Statistical Probabilities," Bashir makes it quite clear that the augments intention to give tactical information to the Dominion is treason. Now let's compare:

The aguments wanted to give the Dominon tactical information = treason.
Janeway wanted to give the Borg information that would allow them to build biological weapons and destroy their enemy = treason.

Watch-Man, you can quibble all you like about your quoted regs on aiding the enemy not including information, but this precedent right here says Janeway intended to commit treason. In addition to the "conspiracy to commit a war crime" part which you've ignored.

[PREDATOR490]

Oh, I'm not claiming that the second part justifies Janeway's initial decision. At best it would only validate it in hindsight, and even then there would be a ton of questions over her actions after that decision was made.

What I do think the second part shows is that 8472's initial intention actually was to destroy all life in the galaxy, based on the fact that their only two communications (apparently from two different pilots) both relay that message. However, what Voyager and the Borg were likely off the mark on was their underlying motives; it was assumed that 8472 were raging, implacable xenophobes, when it seems more likely they were just supremely pissed off and believed that they had an insurmountable tactical advantage (because, well, they DID). When Voyager came along and blew up a bunch of their ships it probably made 8472 think about the situation in a calmer, more rational manner, and led to their espionage plan and, eventually, peace.

There is no evidence S8472 intended to purge the galaxy BEFORE Voyager pissed them off.
The communication that says they would purge the galaxy comes when Voyager enters their space and AFTER S8472 have mind fucked Kes to learn they are developing bio-weapons then Janeway threatens them first while in their realm.

Notice that Kes directly says S8472 are telling her about contaminating their realm and being a threat to genetic integrity - To me that sounds like the 'purge the galaxy' was a direct result of Janeway provoking them which is actually understandable. S8472 are obviously scared with good reason so they are reacting with extreme prejudice to ensure the survival of their species. How ironic that Janeway forced S8472 into committing genocide to stop their own genocide because she wanted to get home a little early. Oh I mean she wanted to stop the genocide of the galaxy. Yeah, that is totally why she blackmailed the Borg.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ghetto Edit: Incidentally, we also have Janeway, in "In the Flesh," quoting Directive 010:

"Before engaging alien species in battle, any and all attempts to make first contact to achieve non-military resolution must be made." She does not do this.

[Tribble]

Wait, so the next time Voyager encounters a S8472 installation, Janeway actually quotes the regulation she was supposed to be following??? And then she proceeds to give S8472 info on the only weapon known to work on them, after mentioning that Voyager was the only ship in the galaxy which had the weapon available?

Seriously, Chuck's Janeway makes more sense than the real one.

[DaveJB]

There is no evidence S8472 intended to purge the galaxy BEFORE Voyager pissed them off.

Uh, yes there is. Kes's line "It's an invasion, they intend to destroy everything," from the first part of the story. It may be a little vague by itself, but taken together with their other communication I think we can reasonably assume that 8472 intended on galactic genocide before Voyager ever became involved, though whether or not they would have actually gone through with it before eventually simmering down and going home is a different matter.

Of course, given the situation around Kes's initial communication and Janeway's subsequent decision, it actually harms her case more than it helps it. I can see Starfleet reaction's to her report:

"Good morning, Captain Janeway. We were just wondering about this report you've given on the Species 8472 incident. Perhaps you can clarify it for us?"
"Sure. My Ocampan officer, Kes, the one who turned into a magic glowing energy ball a week after the incident? She told me she'd gotten a telepathic communication from 8472, announcing their intention to destroy all life in the galaxy. I then discussed the matter at length with Leonardo da Vinci, before making an immediate, unilateral decision to enter an alliance with the Borg. To be quite frank, I thought my report was clear enough about this matter."
"Oh, it is, Captain, it is. It's just that... well, your lawyer contacted us this morning and asked to change your plea to insanity. And from this report, I think I understand why."

[DaveJB]

Ghetto Edit: Incidentally, we also have Janeway, in "In the Flesh," quoting Directive 010:

"Before engaging alien species in battle, any and all attempts to make first contact to achieve non-military resolution must be made." She does not do this.

Technically speaking, Voyager was attacked by the first 8472 ship they encountered, before they had any chance to attempt communication. So yet again, Janeway obeyed the letter of the law while violating the spirit of it.

[Crazedwraith]

Ghetto Edit: Incidentally, we also have Janeway, in "In the Flesh," quoting Directive 010:

"Before engaging alien species in battle, any and all attempts to make first contact to achieve non-military resolution must be made." She does not do this.

Technically speaking, Voyager was attacked by the first 8472 ship they encountered, before they had any chance to attempt communication. So yet again, Janeway obeyed the letter of the law while violating the spirit of it.

It's not like anyone ever critises Star Trek characters for trying to negotiate while under active attack right?

[Borgholio]

Uh, yes there is. Kes's line "It's an invasion, they intend to destroy everything,"

Of course it's an invasion. They're invading the Borg and intend to destroy them completely. Believe it or not, "Everything" doesn't automatically refer to the entire galaxy and every living thing. Remember, that 8472's ONLY contact with life in the Milky Way is the Borg. They may think that the Borg are all there is. There's nothing saying that 8472 would destroy all non-Borg species once the truth is revealed.

It may be a little vague by itself, but taken together with their other communication I think we can reasonably assume that 8472 intended on galactic genocide before Voyager ever became involved

Again, if 8472 thought the entire galaxy was Borg, then yeah they'd attempt to purge it all. Once they learned differently, they changed their tune.

well, your lawyer contacted us this morning and asked to change your plea to insanity. And from this report, I think I understand why."

Yeah and they promote her to Admiral as a result. Hmm...the Starfleet hierarchy is suddenly making more sense...

[Tribble]

IMO Voyager attacked first when they tried to beam the S8472 ship away from the Borg debris after it didn't respond to hails. Then they boarded the ship without permission. In a warzone. And that was after Janeway made the insane decision to take Voyager to the coordinates of the Borg ships just to see why they had stopped.

"So Captain, what did you do after the 15 Borg ships left?"
"I followed them!"
"......"
"And it was totally worth it too, because when we caught up they were all destroyed and everything!"
"I see. And this was when you first encountered S8472, yes?"
"Yep that's right!"
"How did that go?"
"Well when they didn't answer our hails, I tried to beam the ship over. When that didn't work, I beamed my crew over and had them board the ship! At that point for some strange reason the pilot of the ship attacked us, and by us I mean Harry. After we escaped I noticed Harry was being eaten alive, and I had to do something about it, so I had my Doctor whip up a batch of weapons which could wipe them all out in no time! I mean, we did it only to save poor, dumb Harry."

[Eternal_Freedom]

We have seen Starfleet officers be attacked and then withdraw to gather information and then try peaceful contact. Janeway on the other hand faces one enemy, after provoking them by boarding the ship without permission, and then immediately decides to side with the Borg against this enemy. Not even a hint of trying to gather more intelligence.

[PREDATOR490]

There is no evidence S8472 intended to purge the galaxy BEFORE Voyager pissed them off.

Uh, yes there is. Kes's line "It's an invasion, they intend to destroy everything," from the first part of the story. It may be a little vague by itself, but taken together with their other communication I think we can reasonably assume that 8472 intended on galactic genocide before Voyager ever became involved, though whether or not they would have actually gone through with it before eventually simmering down and going home is a different matter.

We cannot assume that and Janeway should even less likely to assume something like that as a Starfleet officer.

In The Flesh has Janeway mention the directive that clearly states she had a duty to find a peaceful solution. Not only because it is part of Federation ethics to be diplomatic and peaceful but it is also extremely prudent.
S8472 are extremely powerful and curbstomping the Borg with impunity, this is not the kind of race you want to piss off without making damn sure you have the facts straight.
Relying on a Elf Nurse to give you tactical information AND act as a point of communication for First Contact is beyond insane. Especially when Kes demonstrates unreliability in her own abilities.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Well shitty writing or not, the implication was that they were going to wipe out the entire galaxy.

[Borgholio]

The implication to KES, maybe...not to those of us who are actually less brain-dead than Janeway.

[Tribble]

If anything, all Janeway did was make S8472 more likely to view the whole galaxy as a threat. Because what was the first thing they learned when they read Kes's mind? That Voyager was developing bio-weapons for the Borg!

[Prometheus Unbound]

The implication to KES, maybe...not to those of us who are actually less brain-dead than Janeway.

Yes but everything else Kes "heard" / "imagined" came true - the Borg piled up exactly the same - same drones, same positions. It was entirely 100% accurate. The implication being that Kes was right, Janeway was right for following that.

Shitty writing, yes. But "in universe", Janeway was right.

[bilateralrope]

Believe it or not, "Everything" doesn't automatically refer to the entire galaxy and every living thing. Remember, that 8472's ONLY contact with life in the Milky Way is the Borg. They may think that the Borg are all there is. There's nothing saying that 8472 would destroy all non-Borg species once the truth is revealed.

Plus we only had the thoughts of one member of 8472. A member who was on the front lines, not the people who ordered him there. We have nothing to say how many other 8472's agreed with that one individual.

[StarSword]

The implication to KES, maybe...not to those of us who are actually less brain-dead than Janeway.

Yes but everything else Kes "heard" / "imagined" came true - the Borg piled up exactly the same - same drones, same positions. It was entirely 100% accurate. The implication being that Kes was right, Janeway was right for following that.

Shitty writing, yes. But "in universe", Janeway was right.

And when she made the decision Janeway had no fucking way to know if her fucking space pixie was fucking right. As far as I know Kes had no track record for accurate precognition that the cast would have been privy to.

Don't get me wrong, I actually don't mind Kes. She's nice to look at and she manages to act halfway intelligent most of the time (which is more than I can say for almost everyone except the Doctor).

But I also I don't give a good goddamn about whether the author thinks their wonderful protagonist can do no wrong. If they wrote their protagonist being a treasonous accessory to genocide, whether they meant to or not, I will bloody well call their protagonist a treasonous accessory to fucking genocide. I give Janeway no less latitude in this regard than I gave Sisko in "For the Uniform" despite the fact that I consider him the best of the TV captains by far.

[Borgholio]

The implication to KES, maybe...not to those of us who are actually less brain-dead than Janeway.

Yes but everything else Kes "heard" / "imagined" came true - the Borg piled up exactly the same - same drones, same positions. It was entirely 100% accurate. The implication being that Kes was right, Janeway was right for following that.

Shitty writing, yes. But "in universe", Janeway was right.

Did Kes see 8472 attacking non-Borg species? Did she see visions of Earth being blown up? Did she see a vision of an 8472 tactician looking at a starmap showing invasion routes out of Borg space into the rest of the galaxy? Nope. Why? Because it didn't happen! They weren't thinking about any of that. The reason why she saw a pile of Borg is because an 8472 warrior made a pile and then sent a mental image of it onto their version of Facebook. She saw what was ALREADY happening, probably on a fair few number of Borg ships aside from the one they sent the away team to.

[Tribble]

Well, she also saw Harry getting attacked before it happened but
A) You don't need to be a telepath to know that snooping around a warship in a warzone without the permission of the occupant is going to lead to trouble and
B) It's Harry, and she probably gets visions of him dying every week.

[PREDATOR490]

Interestingly, one interpretation of the situation is that S8472 was trying to communicate with Voyager via Kes as a warning to fuck off. Kes claimed she was aware of S8472 for some time before and Kes has never demonstrated premonitions before. We know she is a telepath communicating with a telepathic species thus if you remove the premonition bullshit that only concludes that S8472 were sending messages about a Borg totem pole that had not happened yet and Voyager being destroyed which never happened.

Ultimately, relying on Kes is stupid because she is not even trained to handle her abilities like Troi. Putting her on the front line to handle first contact with an alien species currently engaged in a vicious war is asking for trouble.