Borgholio wrote:Most of your arguments consist of script excerpts that can easily be interpreted any way you want out of context.
My arguments do not consist of "script excerpts".
That doesn't make any sense as an argument can't consist of "script excerpts" as there is no conclusion in providing "script excerpts". The latter can only be a proof for my premise or for what happened. If you want to find my argument, you have to ask yourself why I provided a "script excerpt" - what did I want to prove with it and what follows from there.
Besides this, you are free to show that the provided "script excerpts" are out of context and that in their context another interpretation would be mor plausble.
But you have done neither. All you have done is saying - without any substantiation - that the provided script excerpts that can easily be interpreted any way you want out of context. That's not disputed. Out of context - all - not only the provided script excerpts - can be interpreted any way you want.
With other words: All you have done is to put out an obvious statement.
Borgholio wrote:You are still harping on "She couldn't trust Kes".
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T
Jesus Christ why don't you get this through your thick skull? YOU DON'T SET GALACTIC POLICY BASED ON ONE PERSON'S OPINION.
We aren't talking about person's opinion.
We are questioning if Kes telepathic abilities are dependable and - if they are - if Janeway could trust Kes to say the truth.
You have not shown in the least why Kes telepathic abilities are not dependable. There is no reason to assume that Kes has misunderstood species 8472.
And in the end - it is always a question of trust in your sources. Kes read the thoughts of species 8472. As a natural telepath that's nothing special. Although she is no telepath, Janeyway is familiar with that ability.
But you are free to show that telepathy generally or the telepathic ability of Kes in particular is not dependable.
Borgholio wrote:Janeway SHOULD have verified what Kes told her before jumping the gun.
As I show by answering your next questions, it was not feasible.
Borgholio wrote:How hard would it have been to board a disabled / destroyed Borg cube and access a memory module to see what they know about 8472?
Maybe they did not know how to access a Borg memory module. The Borg encryption codes could even block Starfleet commands
-
She's in a turbolift.
Cut power to the turboshafts.
She's blocking my commands with a Borg encryption code.
Captain, someone's accessing the transporter system from deck five.
Lock them out.
I can't. They're overriding my commands with Borg encryption codes.
from "Bliss"
Computer, erect a level ten forcefield around Engineering. Lock out the command controls of Borg encryption code two nine four.2-9-4.
They learned to get acces to Borg technology and decrypt their memory modules from Seven of Nine. But she came later.
Borgholio wrote:How hard would it have been to send remote probes throughout the conflict zone to actually watch what happens?
And what would they have learned? That the Borg and species 8472 are in a state of war. But they did know that already.
Borgholio wrote:Why not try to make contact with 8472 outside of the combat zone?
The last time Voyager came near one of their ships, it opened fire without justifications and broadcasted "The weak will perish".
Borgholio wrote:We know there are non-assimilated worlds in the area, why not check some of them out and see if they know anything?
Janeway did not know any worlds in this area of space.
And why should she trust what these are saying?
She would get more information without the possibility to verify them.
And again - what would they have learned? That the Borg and species 8472 are in a state of war. But they did know that already.
Even if they would have learned that the Borg started the war, it doesn't change the problem, that species 8472 is invading the galaxy.
Even if they would learn that species 8472 is not attacking other species - at the moment - that does not prove that it is not their intention to destroy everything.
Borgholio wrote:There is SO MUCH Janeway could have done to get a good, clear picture of the situation.
What exactly could she have done? Your suggestions are useless - as shown - a waste of time.
The simple question is, if Janeyway could have gotten more reliable information than she got from Kes. And Kes information are very reliable as they are coming directly from species 8472 - only conveyed by Kes.
Borgholio wrote:Waiting it out
As Janeway said: Six months, a year down the road, after Species 8472 gets through with the Borg, we could find ourselves back in the line of fire, and we'll have missed the window of opportunity that exists right here, right now.
But there's NO PROOF of that. In fact, later episodes prove that other species in the area were prepared to deal with 8472 should it happen. But did Janeway get any input from the natives? No, she automatically assumed she knew what was best.
That's the problem. Janeway did not have all information and had no way to gather more dependable information. But she had to made a decision based on the information she had. That's life.
And there is not later episode that proves hat other species in the area were prepared to deal with 8472.
If you are refering to the episode "Hope and Fear":
- You negotiated an agreement with the Borg Collective. Safe passage through their space and in return, you helped them defeat one of their enemies.
Species eight four seven two.
In your colourful language, yes. Species eight four seven two. Did it ever occur to you that some of us in the Delta quadrant had a vested interest in that war? Victory would have meant the annihilation of the Borg, but you couldn't see beyond the bow of your own ship!
In my estimation, Species eight four seven two posed a greater threat than the Borg.
Who are you to make that decision? A stranger to this Quadrant.
There wasn't exactly time to take a poll. I had to act quickly.
My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries, outwitting them, always one step ahead. But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defences. They were closing in and Species eight four seven two was our last hope to defeat them. You took that away from us! The outer colonies were the first to fall, twenty three in a matter of hours. Our sentry vessels tossed aside, no defence against the storm. By the time they surrounded our star system, hundreds of Cubes, we'd already surrendered to our own terror. A few of us managed to survive, ten, twenty thousand. I was fortunate. I escaped with a vessel, alone, but alive. I don't blame them, they were just Drones acting with their Collective instinct. You, you had a choice! JANEWAY: I'm sorry for what happened to your people, but try to understand. I couldn't have known.
It doesn't say anything about his people being prepared to deal with species 8472.
And it does confirm my argumentation: Janeway regarded species 8472 as the greater threat.
And she didn't have time to make a poll or to wast to gather useless information.
Borgholio wrote:Siding with Species 8472
The last time Voyager came near one of their ships, it opened fire without justifications and broadcasted "The weak will perish".
Again, active war zone. What the fuck do you think is going to happen?
Even in a war zone you do not shot on anything.
Species 8472 did not know what Voyager wanted.
It was not provoked.
It was not harmed.
And yet it opened fire and broadcasted "the weak will perish".
Borgholio wrote:Taking a different course
Again as Janeway said: Six months, a year down the road, after Species 8472 gets through with the Borg, we could find ourselves back in the line of fire, and we'll have missed the window of opportunity that exists right here, right now.
How, exactly? A year down the line they'd be a thousand lightyears away and the only way they'd be confronting 8472 again is if they were being chased, which would not happen if they hadn't fucked around in the first place.
The premise of Janeways reaction was that species 8472 is invading the galaxy, intending on destroying everything. Sooner or later that will reach the Federation.
Borgholio wrote:Imagine Janeway decided to set another course - although Kes said what she said. Six month later, species 8472 has defeated the Borg and starts to attack and extinguish other species. In ten years it attacks the Federation. The modified nanoprobes are effecitve - but not enough to defend against species 8472, that can appear everwhere and destroy whole planets without advance warning.
As for all Janeway knew, that was exactly what could have happened.
And for all YOU know, the Borg could have taken the nanoprobes, assimilated 8472, gained the ability to grow uber-powerful organic cubes, and then proceeded to buttfuck the entire galaxy in a matter of months. Speculation can go both ways. Trouble is, neither you nor Janeway has any fucking proof that anything like that would ever happen.
You are right. Welcome in the real world. Sometimes you have to act without having all information. There is even a term for this: "
fog of war".
Borgholio wrote:If at all, there is the TNG epsiode "I Borg" - in which the crew of the Enterprise decided to help a wounded Borg that crashed with its ship.
This is a perfect example of Starfleet precedent in dumbass behavior handling the Borg. Picard had a perfect opportunity to hurt the Borg and he let it go.
Doesn't matter.
Starfleet knew what he has done and he wasn't punished.
It confirms that he acted within his scope of of discretion and action.
Borgholio wrote:And most important - there is the DS9 episode "To the Death" in which Sisko decided to aid Jem'Hadar to kill renegade Jem'Hadar who were in the possession of an Iconian Gateway.
Totally different. The rogue Jem'Hadar could use the gateway to teleport troops or WMDs to any planet in the Federation without any warning whatsoever. They could kill trillions, and the Jem Hadar were already known to be fully hostile to the Federation. The Borg were already known to be fully hostile but Janeway helped them because of her ignorance regarding another species that WAS NEVER PROVEN TO BE HOSTILE TO THE FEDERATION.
Each situation is different.
That doesn't mean that Sisko didn't aid the enemy.
Starfleet knew what he has done and he wasn't punished.
It confirms that he acted within his scope of of discretion and action.
And it isn't so different as Janeway feared the same thing. Species 8472 can appear everwhere and destroy whole planets without advance warning.
Borgholio wrote:But do tell: What are your facts and precedents?
Fact - 8472 only said "The weak shall perish". That is NOT a declaration of war against the entire galaxy.
That is not a fact.
It is a fact that Kes said that species 8472 thought "The weak shall perish"
Another fact is that Kes also said that they though about invading the galaxy and destroying everything.
Borgholio wrote:Fact - Kes has NEVER been able to predict the future, only see things in real-time.
We aren't talking about premonition but about telepathy.
Borgholio wrote:Fact - Voyager pissed off 8472 FIRST. 8472 was ignoring them until they started poking around where they did not belong.
Even in a war zone you do not shot on everything - especially not on something that does not look like the enemy.
Species 8472 did not know what Voyager wanted.
Voyager did not show hostile behaviour - it did not attack species 8472 nor did it harm it.
That they went into an abandond ship is no hostile behaviour - they could have wanted to investigate, establish contact or help.
By opening fire without asking first why the went into the ship or what they wanted, species 8472 demonstrated an extremly aggressiv behaviour.
Borgholio wrote:Fact - The Borg started the war, but Voyager had committed to helping them before this crucial piece of info had been revealed.
This was not know when Janeway made her decision. Besides: it doesn't change anything. The Borg may have started the war. But now species 8472 is invading the galaxy.
Borgholio wrote:Fact - Voyager gave the Borg the ability to assimilate a species that was DEFENDING THEMSELVES FROM UNPROVOKED ATTACK.
Janeway did not know that the Borg attacked species 8472. But even if, it wouldn'd change anything as species 8472 wasn't in the defense anymore but in an invasion of the galaxy. Defense is only what is necessary to fend of an attack.
Borgholio wrote:Fact (and this is an important one) - In a later episode, 8472 flat out admitted that:
1. They never intended to destroy all life in the galaxy, they were only going after the Borg.
Prove that.
Species 8472 did never say this. Even in the episode "In the Flesh" such thing was never said.
- Species 8472. The question is, why are they training to pose as human beings?
Back in the twentieth century the Soviets used to build American towns to train their agents to infiltrate the United States. Species 8472 could be doing the same thing.
They're going to infiltrate the Alpha Quadrant.
Maybe they already have.
Tom's right. How else could they have gathered their information about us?
Perhaps they've acquired it from the Borg.
It doesn't matter how they got their data. We need to find out what they intend to do with it.
If our previous experience is any indication, they will try to destroy Earth.
A logical assumption. They did threaten to purge our galaxy of all life.
Have the Doctor extract them from your bloodstream. Grow them in a petrie dish. Whatever it takes. If we do engage 8472 I don't intend to run out of firepower mid-battle. You of all people should understand that. They killed, what, four million drones? Directive zero one zero. Before engaging alien species in battle, any and all attempts to make First Contact and achieve nonmilitary resolution must be made. In this case, we made first contact over a year ago and we barely got out of it alive. It seems to me a battle is inevitable, maybe even war. So why can't I get that directive out of my mind?
This species intends to purge our galaxy of all life. It's time you resisted your Starfleet philosophy.
In the epsidoe, the Voyager crew is still convinced that Species 8472 wants to purge the galaxy of all life. And now even Seven - who as a former Borg - should know the intention of species 8472 - is convinced that this is their intention.
The only quote I could find that would support your claim is:
- Explain why you attacked our realm, hand in hand with the Borg.
At the time, we didn't realise the Borg had started the war against you. We forged a temporary alliance with them because we thought you were the threat.
Your galaxy will be purged. Sound familiar?
We were only trying to defend ourselves.
That does not exclude the intention to purge the galaxy of all life - as this is the safest way to ensure to never get attacked again.
Furthermore: You do not trust Kes - who has no reason to lie - if she says what thoughts of species 8472 she read. But you trust species 8472, who has every reason to lie. That's inconsequent.
Borgholio wrote:2. They only considered the Federation an enemy because of what Janeway did. 8472 thought the Feds and the Borg were allies.
They fired on Voyager before Janeway did decide to aid the Borg.
Borgholio wrote:So all of these facts, especially the last two, demonstrate that Janeway was criminally negligent in her lack of investigation into what started the war, who started it, and what the outcome of that war would be. She didn't do proper research, she didn't take the cautious and prudent course of action, and the end result is that she gave the Federations most dangerous enemy the ability to assimilate even more species AND led 8472 to believe that the Federation was a legitimate target due to their "alliance" with the Borg.
As you can see: your facts respective your conclusions are wrong.
Your last conclusion and opinion is not supported by the facts.
