Adolfo Suarez (1st Spanish democratic president) dies

[Thanas]

That speaks more to me to the effects of the crisis (kinda like support for kicking greece out magically skyrocket in Germany) IMO.

[K. A. Pital]

That speaks more to me to the effects of the crisis (kinda like support for kicking greece out magically skyrocket in Germany) IMO.

A large crisis like this isn't going to be solved by separatism, although some problems could be alleviated by keeping more money inside the province if it is a net giver to the country budget.

[Thanas]

But shouldn't rich sections of a country help the poorer sections? What happened to solidarity?

[K. A. Pital]

But shouldn't rich sections of a country help the poorer sections? What happened to solidarity?

Theoretically they should. In practice, however, it is hard to explain to people who were trampled over by a fascist government in the center for half a century that they should now keep giving money to the central government which also has a huge economic crisis in the making. That's how national splits usually start: the working class no longer feels any solidarity with the working class of the abstract 'metropole' or 'center', and the local capitalists want to keep more of their profits to themselves or at least give them to the local officials for reinvestment in infrastructure in the region and not outside. Capitalists and separatist workers unite in their desire for breakoff and lo, a new nationstate is born (or not, if the center can crush such ideas well in advance or use the force of arms as a last resort).

[Thanas]

That view is a bit limited by its socialist theory. But given that the government is not fascist now, there exist little justification for splitting IMO except for pure old fashioned greed. It is not as if their votes are limited or as if they have no voice. Heck, not even their language is threatened, in fact it is increasing in dominance since catalan is the dialect most often tought to spanish students.

[K. A. Pital]

That view is a bit limited by its socialist theory. But given that the government is not fascist now, there exist little justification for splitting IMO except for pure old fashioned greed. It is not as if their votes are limited or as if they have no voice. Heck, not even their language is threatened, in fact it is increasing in dominance since catalan is the dialect most often tought to spanish students.

The theory isn't really socialist, even if you ignore the classes, you would just say that national feelings are abound both in the general population, in the capitalists and in the government officials. Greed has always been a component of national economic policy. Nations seek to make their citizens live better to avoid revolts; to that end any amount of political shenanigans outside the nation is acceptable (though, since World War II and decolonization, not open capture of territories as colonies with subsequent extermination). Becoming a nation means being greedy in this way - since you take more for your citizens and leave less for the others outside.

Their votes are not limited, but there are times when people just don't want to remain inside a state any longer. Even if the bad blood is past history.

[Thanas]

Disregarding the theory discussion, because i feel it would get nowhere - sure, if people are for it and have enough votes then they should be let go. But I don't think a simple majority is enough. Two thirds is required by most states for constitutional changes, so that should be on the same level to show popular support.

[K. A. Pital]

But I don't think a simple majority is enough. Two thirds is required by most states for constitutional changes, so that should be on the same level to show popular support.

Hmm, actually, I would agree. It is a major question, so simple majority is enough to warrant serious discussion but may not be enough to support secession without strings attached.