The Scorpion and S8472 thread

[WATCH-MAN]

As for my precedents regarding Starfleet attitude to aiding the enemy, I damn well gave you one, DS9 "Statistical Probabilities." Bashir states that giving the Dominion (who they are at war with, like the Borg) tactical/strategic information was treason.

treason ≠ aiding the enemy
civilians (not authorised to do anything) ≠ starfleet officers (generally authorised to engage in negotiations with aliens)
information about starfleet that directly enables to defeat starfleet ≠ information about a technology that can't harm starfleet

That's a big damn precedent right there. Giving information to an enemy that you are at war with is treason. Janeway fully intended to give the Borg information needed for them to complete their war of conquest. She deliberately chose to side with a known omnicidal threat against an alleged omnicidal threat, without verifying the information from Kes using any fo the methods Borgholio and others have stated..

The question still is if this is aiding the enemy and if it was within her scope of discretion and action.

If anyone keeps "harping on" about anything, it's you, since you keep endlessly quoting how Kes is a "natural telepath" which somehow makes her 100% trustworthy in interpreting a mental contact with an extradimensional race.

If I'm repating this fact, it is only because nobady has dealt with it until now.
Even you aren't providing a shred of explanation why we can't trust the telepathy of Kes.

Now, IF Janeway had verified the information using one of the methods previously stated,

No methods were stated with which more reliable information could have gathered.

and then decided the Borg were the greater threat, then it woudl be justifiable. But she didn't, so it isn't.

And now your whole accussation is reduced to "She hasn't verified her information". That's neither treason nor aiding the enemy.

[WATCH-MAN]

His examples also do not fit the circumstances.

Picard refused to commit what was arguably genocide.
Sisko was intent on destroying the gate so that neither the Dominion nor the renegades could have it.

And by doing so he aided the enemy. That's what Janeway is accused of.

[WATCH-MAN]

I think his problem is twofold.

1. He thinks that telepathy is perfect and accurate.
2. He thinks that Janeway made a good faith effort to find all information possible before making her decision.

Neither case is true, especially since #2 hinges on the (incorrect) assumption of #1.

I think your problem is that you can't show any reason why we should not trust telepathy.

Telepathy is estabished in the Star Trek universe. It works. That's the standard assumption. There have to be special circumstances to assume that someones telepathic abilities aren't working just fine.

And if telepathy works and is dependable - there is no reason to verify the by telepathy obtained information - as there is no way to get more dependable information.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As for my precedents regarding Starfleet attitude to aiding the enemy, I damn well gave you one, DS9 "Statistical Probabilities." Bashir states that giving the Dominion (who they are at war with, like the Borg) tactical/strategic information was treason.

treason ≠ aiding the enemy
civilians (not authorised to do anything) ≠ starfleet officers (generally authorised to engage in negotiations with aliens)
information about starfleet that directly enables to defeat starfleet ≠ information about a technology that can't harm starfleet

My goodness you're dense. Treason is worse than aiding the enemy. Or perhaps I should say, Treason is a larger offence that can include aiding the enemy. Starfleet officiers may be "generally authorised to negotiate with aliens" but I seriously doubt that extends to a known xenocidal race that you are currently at war with. And it doesn't matter if the information given directly allows them to attack Starfleet, sicne it indirectly allows them to. Namely, by allowing the Borg to survive and attack Voyager in future (like they do in the opening of Dark Frontier for instance).


[qupte]

That's a big damn precedent right there. Giving information to an enemy that you are at war with is treason. Janeway fully intended to give the Borg information needed for them to complete their war of conquest. She deliberately chose to side with a known omnicidal threat against an alleged omnicidal threat, without verifying the information from Kes using any fo the methods Borgholio and others have stated..

The question still is if this is aiding the enemy and if it was within her scope of discretion and action.[/quote]

See above. Treason can encompass aiding the enemy and is a mroe serious offence anyway. As TVTropes would say, Treason is a super-offence that encompasses aiding the enemy along with other crimes.

If anyone keeps "harping on" about anything, it's you, since you keep endlessly quoting how Kes is a "natural telepath" which somehow makes her 100% trustworthy in interpreting a mental contact with an extradimensional race.

If I'm repating this fact, it is only because nobady has dealt with it until now.
Even you aren't providing a shred of explanation why we can't trust the telepathy of Kes.

/

It's right there in what you quoted. Kes is interpreting the thought processes of a completely alien extradimensional race. That alone shoudl be enough for Janeway to take Kes' telepathic contact with a pinch of salt.

Now, IF Janeway had verified the information using one of the methods previously stated,

No methods were stated with which more reliable information could have gathered.

Spreading probes would have given a better picture of the conflict, whether it was only in the early stages, with a handful of attacks or a full-on war. Contacting other races in the area would allow JAneway to (possibly) find out who started this (although frankly, given the Borg's known actions that should have been obvious) and also find out what other races thought about the situation.

and then decided the Borg were the greater threat, then it woudl be justifiable. But she didn't, so it isn't.

And now your whole accussation is reduced to "She hasn't verified her information". That's neither treason nor aiding the enemy.

Sigh. No, my whole accusation does not reduce to "she didn't verify her information." THat is simply one aspect of it. That is the evidence I give to show that her decision was not justified because she has a single source of unverified data. She still aided a current enemy and, by the DS9 precedent, committed treason.

Now, here's a better option she could have taken. Keep the nanoprobes and use them as a bargaining tool with other species in the area, offer to give them the means to resist 8472 after the Borg's defeat, if they continue a general offensive, in exchange for safe passage/supplies through these other species space. Hell, perhaps use them as leverage to gain a quantum slipstream drive from the species seen in "Hope and Fear" to enable Voyager to return home.

That way she doesn't aid the Borg, allows a major threat to the Federation to be destroyed, helps dozens or hundreds of other species in the region, provides them with a way to resist 8472 IF they continue the attack and possible enables Voyager to return home faster.

[WATCH-MAN]

Eternal_Freedom - I started to reply to your last post.

But while doing so, I noticed that most of your arguments were already addressed in this thread.

I see no reason to repeat myself again - only because you are too lazy to read what was already written.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh really? You answered my points about Janeway committing treason? Or my alternative option Janeway coudl have taken?

Do please show me where you answered this, or concede.

[Borgholio]

Eternal_Freedom - I started to reply to your last post.

But while doing so, I noticed that most of your arguments were already addressed in this thread.

I see no reason to repeat myself again - only because you are too lazy to read what was already written.

Yeah because you've been repeating yourself this whole time without opening your fucking ears to understand what it is anybody else is saying. At this point it's not laziness, it's just pointless. Despite what you say, you keep trotting out episodic scripts which, due to your lack of comprehension, actually hurt your own case! Every argument you make revolves around giving Janeway the benefit of the doubt, or assuming that all your intel is correct, or assuming that Kes' telepathy is perfect and foolproof. You don't seem to grasp the fact that a halfway competent starship captain should want to verify and re-verify information that is presented to them before they make a decision that could affect BILLIONS of lives. You assume that Janeway was right because...well...she's Janeway. WRONG. She's a fucking idiot, and you keep trying to defend her by shoving your head deeper into the sand with every post you make.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Incidentally, having gone back and had another look to support the "illegal boarding" charge: The away team move through the Borg vessel, find the opening to the biomass, scan it, assume it's a bioship and then board it anyway.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Gehtto Edit: Having also re-watched Chuck's review of Scorpion, he raises another valid idea that Janeway should have followed:

Even IF we accept the alliance idea as the only viable plan, why not head acros Borg space as fast as possible while keeping the nanoprobes and alliance as your ace in the hole for when you're eventually challenged, rather than going straight to a Borg world? That way the Borg can still win (especially since blowing up 17 bioships was enough to convince 8472 to back off) but will be even more weakened by the fight?

Also, why not insist that the Borg use their super--speedy transwarp conduits to take Voyager beyond their space, then give them the nanoprobes?

[DaveJB]

Also, why not insist that the Borg use their super--speedy transwarp conduits to take Voyager beyond their space, then give them the nanoprobes?

If memory serves, those weren't introduced until Dark Frontier, so Voyager wouldn't have known about them yet. However, Voyager could have demanded some Borg warp technology (which is way faster than its Federation equivalent) to clear Borg territory much more quickly, and possibly even complete the whole journey back to Earth in a much shorter timeframe depending on how long the upgrades lasted.

[Borgholio]

Last time Voyager stole a transwarp coil from a Borg sphere, they said it lasted about 10k lightyears. So they'd only need a half-dozen or so of those things to make it home.

[Gandalf]

If memory serves, those weren't introduced until Dark Frontier, so Voyager wouldn't have known about them yet.

They first appeared in TNG's Descent. The Enterprise uses one to chase a Borg ship.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Even if they couldn't use the transwarp conduits for some reason, Borg warp drives are already shown to be way faster. Consider, In Q Who the cube was, what, 7000 light years from Federation space? Within a year they are coming right to Earth. And the ship that rescued Hue must have been pretty speedy to come and pick him up in a matter of days.

At any rate, the idea of "keep sprinting through Borg space until stopped, then offer an alliance" seems way more sensible. Especially since you could make that alliance with any Borg ship since it's a hive mind. It's not like any other race where you'd have to speak to the authorities.

[Borgholio]

Consider, In Q Who the cube was, what, 7000 light years from Federation space? Within a year they are coming right to Earth. And the ship that rescued Hue must have been pretty speedy to come and pick him up in a matter of days.

Well in neither case do we know for certain the Borg used an ultra-fast warp drive. We only see them at warp speed going 9.x even when they're making a bee-line for Earth. It's possible they used transwarp conduits to cover most of the distance.

[PREDATOR490]

Gehtto Edit: Having also re-watched Chuck's review of Scorpion, he raises another valid idea that Janeway should have followed:

Even IF we accept the alliance idea as the only viable plan, why not head acros Borg space as fast as possible while keeping the nanoprobes and alliance as your ace in the hole for when you're eventually challenged, rather than going straight to a Borg world? That way the Borg can still win (especially since blowing up 17 bioships was enough to convince 8472 to back off) but will be even more weakened by the fight?

Also, why not insist that the Borg use their super--speedy transwarp conduits to take Voyager beyond their space, then give them the nanoprobes?

Devil's Advocate: Voyager would have no idea S8472 would back down that easily and has no indication of the military strength of S8472. 17 ships could be a drop in a bucket to S8472 or a substantial amount of their forces. That said, even using this defense brings up the obvious issue that Voyager made little effort to gather intelligence on the situation.

As for the transwarp - The out of universe reason is fairly obvious but another situation where Janeway throws away a valid option because of script. Same situation happened with one of the Q episodes where she could have at least made an attempt to ask Q to send them home.

The Federation knew the Borg had transwarp as early as Descent and Janeway makes a point of looking over EVERY encounter with the Borg in Scorpion so no reason should exist for her being clueless. Even if Janeway magically did not know about that. The 15 cubes that appear... came out of transwarp and Harry Kim specifically mentioned he configured the sensors to detect Transwarp signatures.
It is conclusive Voyager knew the Borg had transwarp and thus the option to ask the Borg for a lift would have been a obvious if not give them the technology.
The only explanation is Janeway thought asking for a lift would be pushing her luck with the Borg and Borg tech gives an easy route for some Trojan tracking / disable system.

That said, giving Janeway credit for thinking this only puts more nails in the coffin of: What the fuck did she hope to accomplish ?
The episode makes it abundantly clear the Borg will screw over Voyager as soon as they get what they want and Janeway MUST hand over the technology if she truly believes the Borg are the only way to stop S8472. Thus Janeway has literally chosen the only course of action that WILL get them assimilated regardless of what she does by directly blackmailing the Borg.

The only reason Voyager survived the situation was because Kes did her magic trick in The Gift. Without that, Voyager would have been assimilated and Janeway had no way to know plot fiat was going to bail her out. Thus Janeway used the only means of defense against an intergalactic enemy to get free passage through Borg space which was only going to end in Voyager getting assimilated and / or blown to bits.

No matter what way you look at the right / wrong of her decision. The logic Janeway is demonstrating is beyond fucking insane and should get her kicked out of ever being in charge of anything again.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I know it's only fanfic, but I rather like the explanation Imperial Overlord gave in "Among the Naked Stars" where after being promoted to Admiral, Starfleet actually looks at her logs and thinks "ah shit." They can't demote her so they promote her sideways to some exploration command.

Still, the point about not knowing that 8472 would back off after losing 17 ships doesn't hold up for another reason: if she had sprinted across Borg space then by the time she had to give up the nanoprobes the Borg would be desperate enough to deploy the weapon as soon as possible, and with their hive mind they can disseminate knowledge to every ship they had immediately.

And incidentally, we saw a fuckload of bioships when Vopyager made it tot he Northwest Passage, so 17 is not a major loss methinks.

[Tribble]

IMO the transwarp seen in Descent was a different type of propulsion. The E-D was able to access that network entirely on its own just by figuring out the frequency, which is at odds with Voyager where either a transwarp coil or a transwarp conduit sustained by Borg tech was required. Perhaps that particular network was some kind of natural phenomenon that Lore discovered? Unique to that area of space? We don't see other Borg ships using it as the Cube in FC attacked the Federation via standard warp.

[Borgholio]

IMO the transwarp seen in Descent was a different type of propulsion. The E-D was able to access that network entirely on its own just by figuring out the frequency, which is at odds with Voyager where either a transwarp coil or a transwarp conduit sustained by Borg tech was required. Perhaps that particular network was some kind of natural phenomenon that Lore discovered? Unique to that area of space? We don't see other Borg ships using it as the Cube in FC attacked the Federation via standard warp.

The Borg sphere in the series finale used a conduit. The whole basis of that episode was to destroy a massive hub for hundreds of such conduits.

As for the cubes in BoBW and FC, who's to say they didn't use transwarp to get close to the Federation then use standard warp on their final approach? We know they did have transwarp conduits, and it makes much more sense to say they used those than inventing a third type of hyper-fast warp drive or slowboating it all the way from the Delta Quadrant.

[B5B7]

The Borg wouldn't even have to give the technology to Voyager. They could tow them to the Alpha quadrant.
Of course, we know the real reason none of this happens - they wanted to get a couple of more seasons of Voyager wandering the Delta quadrant, though they could have easily had the episodes depict travelling from the edge of Alpha quadrant back to Federation territory.

[Borgholio]

Would have been better if a couple seasons were devoted to how things have changed back in the AQ while Voyager was gone. I believe the Dominion war had started by then. Would be a good bit of drama for Voyager to arrive back home and land in the middle of hell.

[Tribble]

IMO the transwarp seen in Descent was a different type of propulsion. The E-D was able to access that network entirely on its own just by figuring out the frequency, which is at odds with Voyager where either a transwarp coil or a transwarp conduit sustained by Borg tech was required. Perhaps that particular network was some kind of natural phenomenon that Lore discovered? Unique to that area of space? We don't see other Borg ships using it as the Cube in FC attacked the Federation via standard warp.

The Borg sphere in the series finale used a conduit. The whole basis of that episode was to destroy a massive hub for hundreds of such conduits.

As for the cubes in BoBW and FC, who's to say they didn't use transwarp to get close to the Federation then use standard warp on their final approach? We know they did have transwarp conduits, and it makes much more sense to say they used those than inventing a third type of hyper-fast warp drive or slowboating it all the way from the Delta Quadrant.

If the Cube from BOBW was the same one from J-25, then it's more logical to assume that it used standard warp for the entire distance. If transwarp had been available to take it to the edge of Federation space it would have used it and attacked right away. Instead it took nearly a year to travel ~7,000 light years. It's an impressive cruising speed given that Data calculated the E-D would have taken over twice as long, but it's still far slower than what we see with transwarp.

If the transwarp network in Descent were the same as the ones in Voyager, Why was the E-D was able to access the transwarp network solely via frequencies? Voyager was never able to do that. Also, what was the purpose of the transwarp coil? If it was to generate a transwarp conduit for ships to travel through, why would they need a transwarp hub at all? If on the other hand it was used to access transwarp conduits, why was the E-D able to ignore this restriction? In universe I mean, the real reason of course is due to sloppy writing.

[Gandalf]

Would have been better if a couple seasons were devoted to how things have changed back in the AQ while Voyager was gone. I believe the Dominion war had started by then. Would be a good bit of drama for Voyager to arrive back home and land in the middle of hell.

A few seasons?

You could do that in a three episodes and still have to pad it out.

[Borgholio]

If the Cube from BOBW was the same one from J-25, then it's more logical to assume that it used standard warp for the entire distance.

First, that's a big IF...it's never confirmed that it's the same cube and we know the Borg had thousands of them. Second, J-25 is 7,000 lightyears away. Even at maximum warp it'd take them close to a decade to arrive in Federation space. We have never seen any Borg ship travel faster than warp 9.9 so the only two options are that it's the same cube and it moved via transwarp, or it's a totally different cube that was closer.

If transwarp had been available to take it to the edge of Federation space it would have used it and attacked right away.

Maybe, maybe not. The Borg never seemed to be in a hurry to assimilate the Federation. Afterall, they never sent more than one cube at a time and both incidents were several years apart when a dozen would have laid waste to the entire Alpha Quadrant within weeks. Maybe the J-25 cube broke off after seeing the E-D fly away at Q-speed. Maybe they realized the Federation is farther away than they thought and sent another cube that was closer. There are many reasons why the attack didn't happen immediately.

If the transwarp network in Descent were the same as the ones in Voyager, Why was the E-D was able to access the transwarp network solely via frequencies?

As I recall, the frequencies were sort of a passcode to unlock the conduit, not to physically open it.

Voyager was never able to do that.

Did they ever even try?

Also, what was the purpose of the transwarp coil? If it was to generate a transwarp conduit for ships to travel through, why would they need a transwarp hub at all? If on the other hand it was used to access transwarp conduits, why was the E-D able to ignore this restriction? In universe I mean, the real reason of course is due to sloppy writing.

As I understood it, a transwarp coil let you travel at transwarp speed, but the conduit was much much faster. The differences were that the coil let you go anywhere and the conduit had to be built ahead of time.

[Tribble]

First, that's a big IF...it's never confirmed that it's the same cube and we know the Borg had thousands of them. Second, J-25 is 7,000 lightyears away. Even at maximum warp it'd take them close to a decade to arrive in Federation space. We have never seen any Borg ship travel faster than warp 9.9 so the only two options are that it's the same cube and it moved via transwarp, or it's a totally different cube that was closer.

Data stated that the E-D would be able make the 7,000 light year trip in two years. He never stated that the trip was unfeasible or that they didn't have enough fuel. If the E-D could do it in two years via standard warp, I don't think it's a stretch for the larger and more technologically advanced Cube to have the fuel capacity and speed to make the trip in less than a year.

If transwarp had been available to take it to the edge of Federation space it would have used it and attacked right away. Maybe, maybe not.

The Borg never seemed to be in a hurry to assimilate the Federation. Afterall, they never sent more than one cube at a time and both incidents were several years apart when a dozen would have laid waste to the entire Alpha Quadrant within weeks. Maybe the J-25 cube broke off after seeing the E-D fly away at Q-speed. Maybe they realized the Federation is farther away than they thought and sent another cube that was closer. There are many reasons why the attack didn't happen immediately.

There is no reason the Borg would view the trip from J-25 as a particularly long one, given that the E-D could have done it in two years. If anything, the E-D flying away at Q-Speed may have been the extra incentive to have the Cube from J-25 make a bee-line to Federation space. Not only from their viewpoint the Federation was a vast, easily conquerable area full of resources, they now had the mystery as to why the E-D was somehow able to escape despite it's apparent technological inferiority.

If the transwarp network in Descent were the same as the ones in Voyager, Why was the E-D was able to access the transwarp network solely via frequencies?

As I recall, the frequencies were sort of a passcode to unlock the conduit, not to physically open it.

Again, that's very different from what we see in Voyager, where a transwarp coil or access to a transwarp conduit via Borg tech was required.

Voyager was never able to do that.

Did they ever even try?

Voyager had access to info about Borg transwarp that enabled them to calibrate their sensors to detect them. We don't see transwarp in either Q-Who or BOBW... the most logical explanation was that they received the info from the events in "Descent". You're right. They didn't try. Why? They should have known how the E-D was able to open the transwarp conduits via frequencies. You could just chalk it up to general stupidity, but they appeared to have been pretty thorough in their preparations. If they could have used the frequencies, wouldn't that have been the most logical move to clear Borg space?

Also, what was the purpose of the transwarp coil? If it was to generate a transwarp conduit for ships to travel through, why would they need a transwarp hub at all? If on the other hand it was used to access transwarp conduits, why was the E-D able to ignore this restriction? In universe I mean, the real reason of course is due to sloppy writing.

As I understood it, a transwarp coil let you travel at transwarp speed, but the conduit was much much faster. The differences were that the coil let you go anywhere and the conduit had to be built ahead of time.

Perhaps transwarp coils were assimilated/created after FC? Otherwise the Cubes in BOBW and FC could have flied straight to Earth without any interference. Or again, maybe they were restricted to regular warp in order to build the transwarp conduit seen in "End Game".

[Borgholio]

Data stated that the E-D would be able make the 7,000 light year trip in two years. He never stated that the trip was unfeasible or that they didn't have enough fuel. If the E-D could do it in two years via standard warp, I don't think it's a stretch for the larger and more technologically advanced Cube to have the fuel capacity and speed to make the trip in less than a year.

Data is actually surprisingly unreliable for a supposed walking computer. There are many indications of his flawed mathematics in other episodes. But for this specific example, look at the following: The max sustained cruising speed of a Galaxy class is a bit over warp 8. Depending on who you ask, that speed is around 1,000c. At that speed, it'll take 7 years to arrive home. At warp 9.9, it'd still take nearly three. The Borg arrived in just one year...meaning they'd have to be going faster than any starship has ever done without going to transwarp.

There is no reason the Borg would view the trip from J-25 as a particularly long one, given that the E-D could have done it in two years. If anything, the E-D flying away at Q-Speed may have been the extra incentive to have the Cube from J-25 make a bee-line to Federation space. Not only from their viewpoint the Federation was a vast, easily conquerable area full of resources, they now had the mystery as to why the E-D was somehow able to escape despite it's apparent technological inferiority.

I agree, seeing them go to Q-speed probably really interested them. But again, simple numbers mean that it is unlikely to be the same cube if it only took one year to arrive. The Borg probably headed in pursuit of the E-D for awhile then realized they're gone for good. Calculating what direction they headed, combined with the previous Borg attacks along the Neutral Zone, they likely figured that's where the Federation is and diverted another cube that was closer.

Again, that's very different from what we see in Voyager, where a transwarp coil or access to a transwarp conduit via Borg tech was required.

In either case, the point is that the Borg did have transwarp conduits as far back as TNG so they could very well have used them.

We don't see transwarp in either Q-Who or BOBW

Why would we? In Q-Who they were just patrolling their own space. In BoBW, they were invading Federation space to assimilate as much as possible. In both cases, it makes more sense to use normal warp.

If they could have used the frequencies, wouldn't that have been the most logical move to clear Borg space?

Indeed, but the whole plot behind Scorpion would not have happened if they had behaved logically.

Perhaps transwarp coils were assimilated/created after FC? Otherwise the Cubes in BOBW and FC could have flied straight to Earth without any interference. Or again, maybe they were restricted to regular warp in order to build the transwarp conduit seen in "End Game".

Well like I said, it appears that the conduits are faster, but you are quite right that they have to be built first...which probably is why the Borg use both coils and conduits. As far as using transwarp to go straight to Earth, I think in both cases they wanted to assimilate as much as they could along the way, which would be easier at normal warp. In both cases, the Borg assimilated a few colonies and starships on the way to Earth that they might have bypassed if it was just a short hop through transwarp.