The Scorpion and S8472 thread

[Tribble]

I apologise for that. I'm stupid when it comes to science stuff.

Again, even if you use 5000c as a figure it doesn't change anything. That would be roughly 13.7 light years per day. The E-D and the Borg Cube were able to travel from the Federation frontier to Earth to 6 days, which would be roughly 82.2 light years. And I think it was safe to say they were sprinting for most of that journey (well at least the E-D was, we don't know if the Borg Cube was going at top speed). As I stated earlier, that is perhaps the most canon evidence available for the Federation's size, given that the 6 day timeline came from an opening crawl rather than dialogue. Poor use of scientific terms aside, what is your issue with my estimate of between 500-1000ly? If anything, I'm being far too generous.

EDIT: damnit, this is why I shouldn't debate when I'm tired. You said 5 figures, not 5,000c. Alright, well, what are the estimates for that? Based on the evidence, what would be the greatest reasonable distance the E-D and the Borg Cube travelled in 6 days, presuming that where they started was at the Federation frontier and that Earth was roughly in the center of Federation territory?

[Borgholio]

Do we know for certain at which point the Borg entered Federation space? Fed space isn't spherical, it's haphazard...like most borders tend to be. Also, in BoTW, it is possible the colony they attacked was actually somewhat deep in Federation space. The Borg could have been there for weeks before making their presence known.

[Tribble]

Well, we do know for certain that the colony was near the edge of Federation territory:

"Captain's log, Stardate 43989.1. The Enterprise has arrived at Jouret IV in response to a distress signal from one of the Federation's outermost colonies."

[Tribble]

We also know once the E-D left orbit they intercepted the Borg Cube within a matter of hours. I presume that the Cube was deeper in Federation territory, but apparently it wasn't heading for Earth yet as they made a bee-line for Earth after kidnapping Picard. As well, the Nebula appears to have been very close by as the E-D was able to make a run for it shortly after escaping. The 6 day timeframe occurred from when Picard was kidnapped just outside the Nebula to when he was rescued somewhere in between Wolf 359 and Earth. Note that this journey wasn't continuous. The E-D stopped to do the deflector dish attack and was incapacitated for a number of hours. The Borg stopped for a significant amount of time to engage/assimilate the fleet at Wolf 359 - in fact, it was long enough for the E-D to finish repairs and catch up with them.

We don't know for sure the distance between Earth and the frontier at the point where the Borg invaded. However, if Picard's statement that the Federation is around 8,000ly across was accurate, then it's logical to assume that the frontier from Earth is at least a few hundred-couple thousand light years away. Anything less would be kinda silly. Again, keep in mind that just the distance between Earth and Wolf 359 is around 7.8 light years.

[Prometheus Unbound]

then it's logical to assume that the frontier from Earth is at least a few hundred-couple thousand light years away. Anything less would be kinda silly. Again, keep in mind that just the distance between Earth and Wolf 359 is around 7.8 light years.

Because every major capitol of a power is right in the heart of their territory, all the time.

[Tribble]

There's a pretty big difference between where major cities would likely be located on a planet vs where capital planets would likely be located in space. You might notice that the major cities you have shown are located near major water sources. And preferably near the coast as well. Why? Because A) humans need fresh water to live and B) up until the invention of flight, travelling by boat was generally the fastest method of transport available.

The only real criteria in space is finding a habitable planet to settle on. What reason would there be for the Federation to leave a vast empty frontier near Earth's doorstep? Especially as the Federation are fully capable of terraforming to a certain extent? Why would the Federation expand in such a way that their capital world would be on/near the border? How is that beneficial for a power which stretches over 8,000ly? What, is Earth downstream or something?

I'm not suggesting that Earth is at the exact centre of a perfect sphere, but it seems to me more likely that it is at least few-hundred light years away from the border, if not more. Either that, or all this talk about an 8,000ly is merely propaganda and the Federation is much smaller than the dialogue suggests.

[Prometheus Unbound]

There's a pretty big difference between where major cities would likely be located on a planet vs where capital planets would likely be located in space. You might notice that the major cities you have shown are located near major water sources. And preferably near the coast as well. Why? Because A) humans need fresh water to live and B) up until the invention of flight, travelling by boat was generally the fastest method of transport available.

The only real criteria in space is finding a habitable planet to settle on. What reason would there be for the Federation to leave a vast empty frontier near Earth's doorstep? Especially as the Federation are fully capable of terraforming to a certain extent? Why would the Federation expand in such a way that their capital world would be on/near the border? How is that beneficial for a power which stretches over 8,000ly? What, is Earth downstream or something?

I'm not suggesting that Earth is at the exact centre of a perfect sphere, but it seems to me more likely that it is at least few-hundred light years away from the border, if not more. Either that, or all this talk about an 8,000ly is merely propaganda and the Federation is much smaller than the dialogue suggests.

Or maybe Earth, Qo'Nos and Romulus are close together?

Qo'Nos is clearly close to earth (Enterprise, ST2009, STID), Romulus is an offshoot of Vulcan, which is close to Earth...#

Each empire spread backwards away from each other.

[Tribble]

That just raises a whole other issue. If Earth was near Qo'Nos, Romulus, Cardassia etc, and everyone was expanding backwards, then it would be relatively central in the AQ powers territory, would it not? What frontier would be left to explore around Earth? Why would Jouret IV contain "one of the Federation's outermost colonies" if in fact it was closer to Qo'Nos or Romulus? The context strongly implies that the colony was on the frontier, and not smack in the middle of the AQ powers.

I'm trying to figure out the max sustainable speed in the TNG era via standard warp. In Voyager it was stated be around 1,000c. However, as it has been pointed out this could be do to limited amount of fuel/supplies/maintenance that Voyager had access to. It has never been indicated that it takes more than a year to travel from one side of Federation space to the other. The longest timeframe I can remember being mentioned was in TNG's "Remember Me" where it was stated the E-D would take 123 days to travel from Starbase 133 to the Traveller's home world. In most episodes it appears to me much shorter. I think it's logical to assume that given a fully developed infrastructure the max sustainable warp speed for Starfleet ships operating in Fed space is significantly higher, especially if the Federation stretches across 8,000ly.

I am using the opening crawl from Emissary as it appears to be the most canonical info available. If you can think of a better way to calculate how quick Federation ships can travel across Fed-space without having to worry about fuel/maintenance/supplies, then please feel free to post it.

[Tribble]

Sorry, I mean most reliable evidence available, as it was an opening crawl directly to the audience rather than on screen dialogue.

[Lord Revan]

I know it's EU material and there fore non-canon but STO puts the Jouret system in the Tau Dewa sector block, same sector block that contains New Romulus (or Dewa III) and Nimbus III (aka the planet of galactic peace from Star Trek V) which would put it near both the romulan and Klingon space and federation frontier doesn't have to mean "no where close to Klingon or Romulan space" just "newly explored/colonizied" hell the reason the Jouret IV colony was so new could cause the system was so close to Romulan space that Federation Council thought it wouldn't be wise to try colonizing planets so close to a hostile power.

oh and Nimbus being close to Romulan and Klingon space is canon as is it being a frontier system.

[Tribble]

If you're going to go bring in Star Trek V, it's also canon that the E-A was able to travel from Earth to the galactic core in what appeared to be a matter of days/weeks. Solely via standard warp, with no godly gifts or transwarp involved. And despite being in the middle of a refit with enough things broken down that even Scotty complained that the ship was in no condition to be travelling.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Tribble, you do realise that Voyager's 1000c figure is not the actual max sustainable cruise speed, its the maximum average speed over a year or so. Their actual sustained cruising speed is considerably higher, but they don't have enough fuel to sustain that for an entire year (hence the frequent stops to refuel, gather more supplies etc.)

The best sprint-speed example I can think of is in STFC when the E-E sprints from the Romulan Neutral Zone to EArth in time to save the day.

[Tribble]

Yes, I am, in fact, fully aware of that. Please read my posts. I have stated that Voyager is not a good example of the limitations of standard warp drive given that it was in the DQ without easy access to fuel and supplies. I am trying to figure out, based on the canon available, what the max sustainable speed of Federation vessels are while travelling within their own space. I'm taking TOS out of the equation because otherwise Voyager ought to have made it home within a matter of weeks, even with it's limited fuel supply.

As it's claimed that Federation territory is 8,000ly across, and there has never been any indication that it would take more than a year to go from one side of the Federation to the other, conservatively speaking I think the max sustainable warp speed for Fed ships within their own territory would be at a bare minimum 8,000c. Almost all the dialogue available suggests that traveling within Fed space is actually much faster than this, but as we don't know for certain where the ships are when they are travelling it's hard to say for sure.

Unless anyone has a more accurate estimate other than non-canon sources?

[Lord Revan]

If you're going to go bring in Star Trek V, it's also canon that the E-A was able to travel from Earth to the galactic core in what appeared to be a matter of days/weeks. Solely via standard warp, with no godly gifts or transwarp involved. And despite being in the middle of a refit with enough things broken down that even Scotty complained that the ship was in no condition to be travelling.

assuming that "thing" was the literal center of the Milky way galaxy, it's just one high end example, sure not the only one but IIRC there's more examples of low speeds then there's of high ones, in case of something as inconsistent as warp speeds you got to look at the examples given and see if there's a trend towards something, not take the highest example you find and declare that must be the whole truth and everything else must tossed aside.

[Tribble]

So...

Is there a trend that suggests it takes multiple years to travel from one side of federation space to the other? If yes, than the max sustainable warp speed within Fed space is less than 8,000c. If no, then 8,000c would be the bare minimum. I think that's one thing we should be able to establish.

IMO we never hear of trips in Fed space taking multiple years in the TNG era, which suggests that 8,000c is the bare minimum, but then again I don't have every piece of dialogue and evidence available. Does anybody have a more accurate guess?

[Lord Revan]

well the entire premise of Voyager is based on the multi-year trip home, thus the entire series is evidence for certain warp speeds being slow enough that it takes several years to cross the Milky Way, now the 8000 light years figure you so desperately cling to comes from a single source IIRC, from piece of dialogue in First Contact (the movie not the episode) but maybe, just maybe it's that piece of dialogue that's wrong even though it's the only direct statement of the side of federation, after all trivia about the federation was probably not foremost at Picard's mind at that point, so he might have misspoken even unintentionally.

[Batman]

The entire premise of VOY is based on a ship stranded at the ass-end of nowhere with zero supporting infrastructure and as such the 70 year travel time estimate is presumably based on that (as I'm reasonably certain I pointed out earlier in this thread). Tribble is asking for max sustainable speed within Federation borders, i.e. with access to fuel depots, spare parts, repair facilities and so on. Fuel economy becomes a lot less of an issue when the next gas station is only a few lightyears away.
Also, at 8,000c (which so far seems to be all Tribble is asking for) it would still take over a decade to cross the galaxy.

As for the 8,000ly comment from FC, yes, it is to my knowledge never repeated. It is also never directly contradicted to that same knowledge. You don't say 'spread across 8,000ly' when what you mean is 'an 8,000 'cubic' ly cube 20 ly a side'. Not even if you're a TNG character.
Probably.

[Tribble]

Thanks to Batman for articulating my point more clearly.

[Borgholio]

Regarding the 8,000 LY comment, I think we have it all wrong. We are taking Picard's statement to mean a contiguous mass of space claimed by the Federation. But what if it's like, say, the old British Empire or the current United States? Would we really consider the vast ocean between California and Hawaii to be within our borders? Or even our territory? Legally, it is neither.

With the old British Empire, same thing. Would they consider all the space in between the British Isles and Hong Kong to be all their territory?

What if the Federation has a core contiguous territory of a couple thousand LY, with the occasional far-flung colony or outpost which, all taken together, is about 8,000 LY? That sounds a bit more reasonable.

[Batman]

I'm...not sure how that makes any difference? End A of Federation territory is still 8,000 ly from end B of Federation territory. Even if 97% of the space in-between is essentially unclaimed territory, you'd still have to travel those 8,000 ly.

[Lord MJ]

Regarding 8000 light years.

Have we forgotten that space is 3-D. And 8000 LY could very well refer to the volume the Federation occupies, not the diameter.

[Borgholio]

Well it matters because if you say that "The Borg will cross the Federation border in less than an hour", do you mean the line drawn where the outermost colony sits, or 3,000 LY closer where they have an actual solid border of claimed and patrolled space?

[Batman]

And again, you don't say 'spread across 8,000 ly' when you mean 'a cube 20 ly a side'.

[Lord MJ]

Who said anything about the Federation being "cube shaped"? Probably not anykind of regular shape, but the volume being 8000LY.

And the comment is spoken by a person that is used to thinking of national territories in 3D terms, while we think of territorial size in 2D terms.

[Batman]

The comment is also made by a person who curiously enough fails to use the terms 'volume' or 'cube' ly. It's 'spread across 8,000 ly'. Now to me that indicates that whatever shape the Federation is, at least along one axis, it measures 8,000 ly.