The Scorpion and S8472 thread

[Lord Revan]

Batman you're assuming Picard was calm and rational, when in fact he's faced with the power that essentially kidnapped and mind raped him in their last encounter and now it seems he's just as powerless to stop them as he was when he was assimilated and turned into Locutus, so as I said before federation trivia isn't top priority in his mind at that moment.

Also you don't seem get the point of my objection, while Voyager is one big block of evidence for low warp speeds, it's hardly the only evidence and there's time when even when time is of the essence and they're in federation space where warp speed are shown to be lower then 8000c (we're given both the distance and the travel time), so should we ignore those examples in favor of an in-direct example based on single piece of dialogue or assume that even when there's no time to waste Starfleet's finest waste time needlessly?

I dunno about you, but personally I'd be at least willing to consider that maybe, just maybe we should at least explore these examples rather then dismissing them out of hand. Oh and the travel time from delta quadrant to alpha was given as 80 years in TNG which is consistent with VOY.

[Tribble]

Please provide specific examples of TNG/DS9 of travel times within federation territory where they stated both the distance in light years and how long it would take to get there.

The only thing you have stated so far is that Nimbus's location is canon, while the E-A's journey is not... despite the fact that the two are in the same movie. I don't count the E-A's journey either, and I don't pick the parts I like while discarding the rest. Either we treat Star Trek V as canon for the purpose of this discussion, or we don't. You've also mentioned Voyager, for which you have yet to explain why the maximum sustainable speed of a ship in the middle of uncharted and hostile territory with no chance of regular re-supply or maintenance would be the exact same as a ship in the middle of it's own territory with an infrastructure system set up to support it. Just being in uncharted territory has been shown to slow down warp travel considerably, even if fuel and maintenance are not an issue. In Q2 Q shaved several years off their trip to back to Federation space just by giving Janeway a more efficient course than they one she was on.

[Lord Revan]

"the Enemy" gives us a distance of roughly half a light year and travel time of 1 hour, well technically it was 6 hours to the planet Enterprise was orbiting and 5 hours to the edge of the neutral zone with the planet being .5 ly in the federation side and yes it was Romulan warbird but a) there's reason to assume Romulans don't have infrastructure setup as just the UFP has b) there's no reason to assume Warbirds are that much slower then the Galaxy or else episodes like the Tin Man would make no sense (it's not much of a race if one car can go 100 miles per hour but the other only 50 miles per hour, but if one can go 100 and the other 90 now it can be a race).

in clues .54 parsecs (little over 2 light years) trip is said to take almost a day normally

and in "Bloodlines" it takes 20 mins at warp 9 to travel 300 billion km

all examples from TNG and all show speeds lower then 8000c and all examples where the ship was close to the support infrastructure.

I could probably find more if started digging but honestly I got better uses for my time then that.

as for Star Trek V, it's canon all of it, just if there's more evidence suggesting lower warp speeds then there's for high ones we can't just go "see, see, there's an example of high warp speed in canon, therefore we can dismiss all the examples of low warp speeds!" like you and batboy are doing.

[Prometheus Unbound]

in clues .54 parsecs (little over 2 light years) trip is said to take almost a day normally

and in "Bloodlines" it takes 20 mins at warp 9 to travel 300 billion km

all examples from TNG and all show speeds lower then 8000c and all examples where the ship was close to the support infrastructure.

Voyager's "The 37s" had Paris saying Warp 9.9 was "about 4 billion miles a second".

When the USS Dauntless (the faked holographic ship that looked like a Federation one) took off in transwarp / slipstream it took voyager just over two days "at maximum warp" to travel 15 light years.


Enterprise D in Q Who was thrown what, 7000 light years? Data said at maximum warp it'd take them over 2 years to get back to the nearest federation outpost - that's what, 3500 per year? About 10 LY a day?


I don't see 8000 years from one axis to the other (it might be sausage shaped!) being strange - it'd take months or years to cross the USA when it was first colonised - same for the British Empire.

[Borgholio]

And this is why any discussion about warp speed is doomed to head-desking.

4 billion miles per second = a bit over 21,505c. Maximum warp is higher than warp 9, yet that 15ly quote puts maximum warp in the neighborhood of 2,737c. A ten-fold difference.

[Lord MJ]

We do have a point of reference in DS9's Valiant where the cadets of the Valiant's training mission was to circumnavigate the entire Federation. This mission would presumably be intended to be completed within a year or so. That's not a journey a Defiant class ship could make in that timeframe if the Federation was 8000ly across.

[Tribble]

If standard warp drive is slow, and it takes less than a year to circumnavigate the Federation, then the amount of space that the Federation/Romulans/Klingons etc occupies is actually pretty small. Which would mean that all their claims about the Alpha Quadrant being threatened with whatever invasion of the week is really nothing more than exaggeration and propaganda on their part. Afterall, the vast majority of the Alpha Quadrant would well outside their territory. Not to mention the Beta Quadrant.

I'm sure the Federation/Klingons/Romulans etc aren't above using propaganda when it suits their needs. "The Dominion is going to conquer the entire Alpha Qudrant!" is a lot catchier than "the Dominion is going to conquer the relatively small amount of space that we occupy!"

[Eternal_Freedom]

The trouble with saying that "they'll conquer the whole Alpha Quadrant" is propoganda is that it isn't just the Federation who say such things. Dukat and Weyoun in early season 6 of DS9 remark several times that the new fleet comign through the wormhole will let them conquer "the entire alpha quadrant." Dukat says the same thing when he realises the fleet has been removed by the Prophets, which is hardly a situation where he'd be spewing propoganda to his own side. The Founder says much the same "send a signal our fleet, tell them the Alpha Quadrant awaits them." Clearly the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and so on occupy a large chunk of said quadrant.

[Tribble]

Not to mention that the Romulans/Federation/Klingons also have territory in the Beta Quadrant.

But we can't have it both ways. All the evidence points to it taking at most a year to cross Federation territory. And as Lord MJ pointed out, it might only take a year for a Defiant class to circumnavigate Federation territory. If the max sustainable warp is around Voyager speed (around 1,000c) then either the Federation is only ~1,000ly across, or even smaller with a total perimeter of 1,000ly. If we were to use the Q-Who example, that would only change it so that the Federation is around ~3,500ly across or has a total perimeter of 3,500ly. Even with all their territory combined they wouldn't come close to encompassing the AQ, let alone parts of the BQ. If that's the case, then clearly it was just propaganda and/or exaggeration on their part.

If on the other hand Federation, Romulan, Klingon and Cardassian territory does in fact encompass the majority of the AQ and parts of the BQ, then that means warp travel must be considerably faster than what the dialogue suggests. In which case Voyager's limtiations were due to lack of knowledge of the DQ, lack of fuel, and the inability to go to a Starbase for maintenance.

It's either one or the other, it cannot be both. Which is more likely? Propaganda/exaggeration? Or inaccuracy on the part of the dialogue?

[Borgholio]

Or inaccuracy on the part of the dialogue?

I vote lousy script-writing. Honestly, there's no way in-universe to justify the wide variety of speeds and distances we're exposed to, and numbers that they run with in-universe that are just flat out wrong. E-A going to the center of the galaxy in mere hours or days, yet Voyager taking 70 years to return home. Federation space being 8k LY across but NX-01 taking only a couple days to get to Qo'nos (when at that speed it actually places the Klingons in the Oort cloud).

[Lord MJ]

I thought it was always understood that when people talk about the "Alpha Quadrant" they are really colloquially referring to the local space where the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and dozens (perhaps hundreds) of other interstellar races reside.

The actual Alpha Quadrant covers a quarter of the galaxy, and would take decades to cross as evidenced by Voyager's journey across the equivalent sized Delta Quadrant.

Earth is located near the border with the Beta Quadrant. The other side of the Alpha Quadrant is decades away, and it's possible humans have only explored that area via unmanned probes.

[Borgholio]

After a bit of searching, I found this:

http://www.chartgeek.com/wp-content/upl ... k-map.jpeg

Made a URL because it's big.

Don't know where it came from, but if it's accurate, it gives an idea of the oblong shape of Federation space. And it says 8000 cubic lightyears...which means it's linear borders can be rather small. Again, I don't know if it's canon or not but it's the highest quality chart I saw that wasn't obviously fan-made.

[Lord MJ]

According to that map, the Federation almost surrounds the Romulan and Klingon empires (at least in a 2D view).

[Eternal_Freedom]

It also shows Bajor being right on the edge of Cardassian space...which woudl make the whole offensive to take the CHin'taka systems as a stepping-stone to Cardassia kind of pointless given how close they are.

However, the relative arrangement of the Federation and Cardassian Union does look preety close to all those status maps the Cardassians looked at in early season 6 of DS9.

Incidentally, I really hate knowing what the Valiant's mission was, because I struggle to see why you'd use a rare and powerful warship like a Defiant for a year-long cadet training mission. Surely there were other ships better suited to such a mission (a Miranda perhaps).

[Lord MJ]

If I understand it, the reason the Feds attacked Chin'Toka was not because it was a stepping stone, but because it was the only system that was vulnerable to attack.

The Allies at the time did not have the capability to launch an all out attack on Cardassia like the Klingons did in "Way of the Warrior", and like the allies did one year later on "What You Leave Behind". So hitting the vulnerable system was the strategy they undertook.

[Tribble]

Well, I saw a star system named "MEMORY ALPHA" which may offer a clue as to where the map came from.

I presume the map's scale is not accurate. Otherwise if you look at the Federation border around Deep Space 5, and the location of Earth, you realise that the distance is somewhere ~70-80ly. We know that at most the battle of Sector 001 took place over a few days. If we were to assume 10ly per day, that's still an average fleet speed of roughly 3,650c.

Edit: Incidentally, I realised after posting that the figure is pretty close to Data's estimate in Q-Who. Coincidence?

[Tribble]

Actually, the more I look at that particular figure, the more it makes sense to me.

Let's assume for a moment that Warp 9 is 3,650c. Being near the top of the warp scale, it is far less "fuel-efficient" than lower warp speeds. Within Federation territory, this isn't a problem: starships have access to starbases/planets for fuel and maintenance, and the area has been mapped to find the quickest and most efficient routes possible.

Outside Federation territory, maintaining Warp 9 for long periods of time is infeasible. The E-D had enough fuel reserves to maintain it for two years, but this was probably near the absolute limit of its range. And it was specifically built for long range exploration, to the point where families were on board. Smaller ships like Voyager and the Defiant probably couldn't have maintained warp 9 for that long. Especially the Defiant: it had warp engines far larger than most starships that size should have, and it was specifically built to fight the Borg in Federation territory. Fuel efficiency and range were probably not priorities in its design. The same would go for older starships; I'm not even sure if we see any actually hitting warp 9, and if they do they certainly wouldn't be able to maintain it for months on end. And although we don't see that many civilian ships, presumably they are not travelling at Warp 9 throughout their journeys either. Warp 5 seems to be the "cruising" speed for most Federation vessels.

Note that this wouldn't have made a difference for the E-D if it had been thrown as far as Voyager - it too would have been restricted to a far lower warp due to fuel limitations and being in uncharted territory. If Voyager had infinite supplies, no need for maintenance, a detailed map of the entire trip giving them the quickest route possible, and had absolutely no reason to ever deviate from that course, then it could have theoretically made the trip in 19-20 years. Voyager averaging 1,000c makes sense given the circumstances it was in.

IMO there is a big difference between being inside friendly, charted territory and being completely isolated in uncharted territory where the nearest known support is 70,000ly away. My revised estimate is 3,650c while within Federation space, and 1,000c when completely isolated with no hope of support. This seems reasonable with a 8,000 cubic ly Federation and with some of the dialogue. Keep in mind this is for advanced military starships like the E-D, Voyager, Defiant, E-E etc. The vast majority of Federation vessels would probably be slower, especially civilian vessels.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Wasn't there something about a Federation "speed limit" of Warp 5 or so due to higher warp speeds damaging subspace or somesuch?

[Tribble]

Yes, there was. That is why the Intrepid class had the rotating warp nacelles, as apparently that significantly reduced the amount of damage being done to subspace. With most ships travel faster than warp 5 was only permitted in emergencies. It's possible that post-Intrepid starships managed to overcome this problem without having to resort to the rotating nacelles, but we don't know for sure.

And incidentally, I need to revise my estimate again. Data stated it would take ~2.6 years to travel 7,000ly, not 2 years. This works out to around ~2,700c.

I think that warp 9 being ~2,700c is reasonable given what info is available. Not many Fed vessels are known to be able to make Warp 9 or faster apart from Galaxy-Class and later starships. Fewer still would be able to maintain that speed over long distances without refuelling.

[Borgholio]

It's possible that post-Intrepid starships managed to overcome this problem without having to resort to the rotating nacelles, but we don't know for sure.

They did. Newer nacelles such as those on the Sovereign class did not damage space and so were not limited.

[Lord Revan]

It's possible that post-Intrepid starships managed to overcome this problem without having to resort to the rotating nacelles, but we don't know for sure.

They did. Newer nacelles such as those on the Sovereign class did not damage space and so were not limited.

Actually IIRC that was never stated outright, just assumed as they makers of the TV series got rid of the that limit rather quickly without any mention as to why around season 7 of TNG

[Tribble]

The writers had it in mind until at least the first episode of Voyager as that was the "canon" reason for giving Voyager rotating nacelles. And I seem to recall the writers stating that post Galaxy-class starships were designed to eliminate the problem.

I've always assumed that the limit was in place, but as the viewers almost always see the E-D involved in some kind of emergency it's simply not mentioned.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Well, I saw a star system named "MEMORY ALPHA" which may offer a clue as to where the map came from.

Memory Alpha wiki is named after the planet Memory Alpha, which was in a TOS episode - big computer bank planet.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The writers had it in mind until at least the first episode of Voyager as that was the "canon" reason for giving Voyager rotating nacelles. And I seem to recall the writers stating that post Galaxy-class starships were designed to eliminate the problem.

I've always assumed that the limit was in place, but as the viewers almost always see the E-D involved in some kind of emergency it's simply not mentioned.

none of that is canon.

Never mentioned in an episode.

IT makes sense, in context - Voyager was a test bed and the new warp technology was incorporated into normal nacelles after the Intrepid was built.

However, as for the WArp 5 limit, it was in one episode of TNG as a plot point, then mentioned 2-3 times after in passing and then quietly dropped.

No on screen reason was ever given for Voyager's nacelles.

[Tribble]

It doesn't mean that the Warp 5 restriction became non-canon. It's just a moot point because we almost always see starships in some kind of crisis or another. There is no "Star Trek: Freighter Run" reality TV series... at least not yet.